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Hi,
Long time DM (30+ years) and a short time lurker. I would like some help with recommendations on fixing Touch of Slime. We are currently playing the Second Darkness Adventure Path.
One of my players has created a devastating combination. She is a Save or Die necromancer who "helps out" until the "big bad guys" shows up and then kills it.
Her combination that has destroyed a few of my signature creatures before they can take a (significant) bite out of the party is to Cast Sands of Times first, and then Touch of Slime. If this has already been discussed elsewhere please point me to it.
The Touch of Slime seems to me to be a bit either over powerful, not really well designed or I am missing something. I think the issue is how a monster, like a Troll who doesn't have tools, spells or special attacks can remove the slime? Should it be ruled that once she cast this spell, if the Troll stops and "scrapes" with his claws he removes it? How much "damage" does he have to do, none, one point? It seemed a bit unfair to us that any creature she cast his on, can stop and use its natural weapons (isn't that counter-intuitive that helps with the slime?) and then "scrape" it off with basically its hand and that is the end of the spell. However when I only have claws ... and no breath weapon or such and fighting in the under dark. She was able to seriously damage and then kill the <spoiler> mostly because I was unprepared for the spell. It took me a couple of rounds to come up with the house rules later that even though it does not say acid in the description of (scraping, freezing, burning, cutting, sunlight, or remove disease) that the breath of a <spoiler> could "melt" the slime away. By that time, between the Sands of Time and a couple of rounds of Touch of Slime, <spoiler> Fortitude had been lowered, and that is the death nail when facing a necromancer. Then her very nicely built necromancer was able to easily destroy the Ghonhatine she came across racing to escape <spoiler> in the Endless Night module. I ruled in this case that it had no special attack to remove it, and more importantly it had a an Int of 4, thus it didn't realize until it is too late (like one round) that the slime was spreading and lethal. Even if it did realize this, how does a Ghonhatine "scrape" the slime off with its paws? Again, I don't want to (unless I have too) overly nerf the spell, I am looking for a balanced interpretation.
And on the "game balance" argument she has long ago past the time of needing to actually "touch" something by using Spectral Hand at lower levels and taking the Reach meta-magic Feat at later levels. Reach and a necromancer works. She is also an Elf, with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, plus she has increase the DC's of her necromancer spells. She is hurtful.
I have re-pasted the spell below for ease of reference. Thank you for any thoughts you may have.
School conjuration (creation) [disease]; Level alchemist 4, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4
Components V, S, M (a drop of acid and a black glass sphere)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You create a coating of slime on your hand. When you make a successful melee touch attack with the slime, it pulls free of you and sticks to the target, at which point it acts like green slime, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage per round. Anything that destroys green slime (scraping, freezing, burning, cutting, sunlight, or remove disease) destroys this slime. If the slime kills a creature, it consumes the body and then dies. It cannot transfer to a creature other than the original target, and dies if separated from the original target.
You should check out the green slime entry first:
This dungeon peril is a dangerous variety of normal slime. Green slime devours flesh and organic materials on contact and is even capable of dissolving metal. Bright green, wet, and sticky, it clings to walls, floors, and ceilings in patches, reproducing as it consumes organic matter. It drops from walls and ceilings when it detects movement (and possible food) below.A single 5-foot square of green slime deals 1d6 points of Constitution damage per round while it devours flesh. On the first round of contact, the slime can be scraped off a creature (destroying the scraping device), but after that it must be frozen, burned, or cut away (dealing damage to the victim as well). Anything that deals cold or fire damage, sunlight, or a remove disease spell destroys a patch of green slime. Against wood or metal, green slime deals 2d6 points of damage per round, ignoring metal's hardness but not that of wood. It does not harm stone.
If they fail their fort save, then they still have a chance, they can scrape it off (I'd say most slashing weapons would do) in the first round of contact. Freezing, burning, sunlight, and remove disease as well. There are lots of ways to stop green slime (A simple ray of frost or produce flame can destroy it).
I think the issue is how a monster, like a Troll who doesn't have tools, spells or special attacks can remove the slime?
Green Slime: "On the first round of contact, the slime can be scraped off a creature (destroying the scraping device), but after that it must be frozen, burned, or cut away (dealing damage to the victim as well). Anything that deals cold or fire damage, sunlight, or a remove disease spell destroys a patch of green slime."
Necromancer smears goop on troll. Goop burns. Troll scrapes goop off with rock.
No rocks handy? (or creature not smart enough to pick one up?) Troll takes some con damage. Since it's now the next round, troll can just cut away the slime. I would just have it claw itself, it's probably not very concerned with taking the claw damage.
You may want to consider editing the AP spoilers out of your post, since they don't really seem essential to your question.
I think the issue is how a monster, like a Troll who doesn't have tools, spells or special attacks can remove the slime?Green Slime: "On the first round of contact, the slime can be scraped off a creature (destroying the scraping device), but after that it must be frozen, burned, or cut away (dealing damage to the victim as well). Anything that deals cold or fire damage, sunlight, or a remove disease spell destroys a patch of green slime."
Necromancer smears goop on troll. Goop burns. Troll scrapes goop off with rock.
No rocks handy? (or creature not smart enough to pick one up?) Troll takes some con damage. Since it's now the next round, troll can just cut away the slime. I would just have it claw itself, it's probably not very concerned with taking the claw damage.
Ok, that works. If a Troll, or "whatever" claws itself what type of damage does it need to do to get rid of the slime? It says "dealing damage to the victim as well" but never says how much. Can we use a 0-Level spell and do 1 point of damage and get rid of the slime. Seems kinda of simple to me. What about after the first round, does the victim have any options?
I will try and figure out how to edit my reply, thanks, I never even thought about the Spoilers!
If a Troll, or "whatever" claws itself what type of damage does it need to do to get rid of the slime? It says "dealing damage to the victim as well" but never says how much.
I assume if it claws itself, it deals claw damage. It doesn't specify how much damage (if any) must be dealt to the slime (and thus also the creature) so you're going to have to make something up.
Can we use a 0-Level spell and do 1 point of damage and get rid of the slime.
If the spell deals cold or fire damage, sure.
What about after the first round, does the victim have any options?
After the first round it no longer has the option to scrape off the slime (taking no damage, but destroying the scraping device). Other than that, it's the same.
I'd say if you go the scraping route, it appears to say you can scrape it off in the first round of contact but you destroy the scraping device. Natural weapons probably wouldnt work because then it's on your hands/teeth/face. If you used a nonmagical sword it would take 2d6 damage and be destroyed in 1 round as it ignores the hardness of metal. If you cant get it off in the first round I would say you take however much damage your attack does in order to get it off.
As a GM, I would cackle with great delight if a player cast sands of time on a dragon they were fighting.
Edit: Guess my post doesn't make much sense with all the <spoilers> in the OP now.
As a GM, I would cackle with great delight if a player cast sands of time on a <bad thing> they were fighting.
Sands of Time: "The target immediately takes the age penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for its new age category, but does not gain the bonuses for that category."
I would assume that if a single point of fire/cold dmg would remove it so would a minimum damage roll.
That said, I'd lean towards one point of damage per level of the spell (4 in this case) at least for melee attacks. 1 point should still suffice for fire/cold as the alone is specifically noted as being weak to these elementsts.
As for the whole "use your claw to scrape it off" I'd have to say this might be possible, but them you'd have to scrape it off your claw as well, likely by scraping your calw against a rough corner or surface. If the creature has 2+ attack/round they could even do so before taking a second round of con dmg, but they would deal at least 8 points of dmg to themselves (4 to scape it off with the claw & 4 to scrape it off the claw onto another surface).
That said, with a troll's regeneration, the prospects of doing this would hardly phase them, butany other creature is probably taking at least a -1 atk penalty for any attacks which require the use of that claw/limb. Still a +1 for the necro, just not quite as big of one.
Sands of Time: "The target immediately takes the age penalties to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution for its new age category, but does not gain the bonuses for that category."
But there are no age penalties for a dragon. I suppose it wouldn't gain new power, but it wouldn't take any penalties, either.
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Touch of Slime says "creature touched", not "touch". It's arguing the letter rather than the spirit, but I'm not sure Reach Spell works on it by RAW.
Also, green slime obviously has issues. If it guarantees the destruction of any scraping implement used to scrape it off in the first round, that's a great way to dispose of, say, the One Ring.
Anyway, what about scraping it off by scratching yourself against the walls? Although if that works on monsters, it would also work for players.
Touch of Slime says "creature touched", not "touch". It's arguing the letter rather than the spirit, but I'm not sure Reach Spell works on it by RAW.
Touch of slime explicitly states touch in the range line, which decides if the spell can be used with Reach Spell or not.
"Creature touched" is normal way of noting target in target line and description of touch ranged spells. Reach Spell explicitly turns touch ranged spell into close ranged spells.
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I just checked the errata for Ultimate Magic and see no reference to Touch of Slime, therefore, I'm left with concluding that this is "stealth" errata, i.e. updates made to the PRD that were not added to an errata document. I'm seeing this more and more often recently, that of changes in the PRD that are not reflected in the official errata documents so I'm wondering if Paizo has changed the policy of the PRD matching the errata or ...?
In any event, updating d20pfsrd.com to match. It would just be nice if changes to the PRD were also reflected in the errata docs so people who are using print resources are as up to date as those using electronic options.
Anyway, what about scraping it off by scratching yourself against the walls? Although if that works on monsters, it would also work for players.
This thought occurred to me as well, and it seems to make Touch of Slime horribly underpowered.
Whoever you hit this with gets a Fort save (which is often a high save among monsters). If they fail the save, they simply spend 1 round using a wall to scrape it off.Many insects know to scrape off gooey stuff, which means even a mindless creature would know to do this.
So it's a 3rd level "save-or-be-inconvenienced-for-1-round" spell.
The only way it's worthwhile is if you pair it with a spell like Hold Monster, to ensure the slime sticks. Translation: not a spell worth knowing.
Me overthinking?
4th level. Even better.
Exachery!
(oops)