Elaine Cunningham is a horrible writer. Especially when she doesn't even look up the rules of the world she is writing for and switches conjuration and evocation schools.Nerd!!!
:)
THAT MAKES ME SO ANGRY!!
Elaine Cunningham is a horrible writer. Especially when she doesn't even look up the rules of the world she is writing for and switches conjuration and evocation schools.Disliking Elaine's books is certainly your prerogative.
Saying that she's a horrible writer moves beyond the subjective, though, and I certainly think it's a very unfair categorization.
Writing a book that's blow for blow the novelization of a gaming session would indeed make for a poor book. Luckily that's not what Elaine (or any of the other authors of any FR book I've read) does.
Again, feel free to feel that Elaine's books aren't to your taste. That doesn't make her a horrible writer.
I would tend to agree with this.
I would also tend to say, however, that a writer can pay internal consistency service - even if lip service - and work to keep their work functional within the broad scope of the rules, even if not going for all of the specifics.
I think Salvatore (mostly) falls into the "too many specifics" category (going so far as to note in one book that Artemis was going to have to wait until the next "round" to do something) whereas Elaine falls in the "too loose" category (thus the reaction).
Neither of those things makes either a bad writer. But Salvatore's can take you out of the book you're reading, while Elaine's can cause internal dissonance; both are flaws.
Kemp's stuff with Cale is, by far, some of the best FR stuff written out there. Some of the absolute best.
I also don't think it's possible to make any of the works he's actually done into a movie.
The Halls of Stormweather story (well, both of them) would require too many character introductions. That was done with a novel for each of their characters.
The Twilight War trilogy would require... well, way too many introductions. Who would care about Mags? Riven? Who the heck is that short guy? After all, we never got to know their history together. And the budget. Mercy, the budget! Could you imagine, just imagine, what it would take, budget-wise, to make a non-incredibly-stupid-looking Shade on screen all the time?! ALL THE TIME.
The Erevis Cale trilogy could work, I guess, but the budget would still be pretty high for a number of those scenes (and they wouldn't have to have the Shade template until later, saving at least a portion of their budget in the first movie).
All of them would have the problem of needing to be a trilogy. (Or a decalogy, or whatever, to get all the books.) Which, you know, sounds super-awesome, but by that point, I'm going to strongly recommend a Sherlock-style hour-and-a-half-long set of television series to get through everything.
True, Marvel's almost made it there, so it may well be possible. It's just the getting people to agree and sign on to such an undertaking is... well. It's really difficult.
(I do think that they'd be incredible movies, though.)
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Although I haven't read a DnD novel in like...ten years, Moonshae would actually not be a bad idea. The first book is self contained, the world of the islands is small enough that viewers don't have to learn a thousand things, and the tropes are not so grounded in DnD for a non DnD fan to have problems.
"Better stuff out there" is Dragonlance?
Wow.
Oh, absolutely, although I meant fantasy novels not set in RPG settings.
Weiss and Hickman managed to make Raistlin as well as Caramon and Tasslehoff better rounded characters over the course of six books than Salvatore managed with 20 plus.
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"Better stuff out there" is Dragonlance?
Wow.
Oh, absolutely, although I meant fantasy novels not set in RPG settings.
Weiss and Hickman managed to make Raistlin as well as Caramon and Tasslehoff better rounded characters over the course of six books than Salvatore managed with 20 plus.
Oh hell no. I disagree, 150%, and I'm not even a die hard Drizzt fan (more of an Erevis Cale fan).
Elaine Cunningham is a horrible writer. Especially when she doesn't even look up the rules of the world she is writing for and switches conjuration and evocation schools.Disliking Elaine's books is certainly your prerogative.
Saying that she's a horrible writer moves beyond the subjective, though, and I certainly think it's a very unfair categorization.
Writing a book that's blow for blow the novelization of a gaming session would indeed make for a poor book. Luckily that's not what Elaine (or any of the other authors of any FR book I've read) does.
Again, feel free to feel that Elaine's books aren't to your taste. That doesn't make her a horrible writer.
Also understand that the 'rules of the world' changes over time and editions. Many spells in 2e AD&D (the current edition when many of her books were written) belonged to more than one school of magic simultaneously, some changed completely with 3e.
Also understand that the 'rules of the world' changes over time and editions. Many spells in 2e AD&D (the current edition when many of her books were written) belonged to more than one school of magic simultaneously, some changed completely with 3e.Elaine Cunningham is a horrible writer. Especially when she doesn't even look up the rules of the world she is writing for and switches conjuration and evocation schools.Disliking Elaine's books is certainly your prerogative.
Saying that she's a horrible writer moves beyond the subjective, though, and I certainly think it's a very unfair categorization.
Writing a book that's blow for blow the novelization of a gaming session would indeed make for a poor book. Luckily that's not what Elaine (or any of the other authors of any FR book I've read) does.
Again, feel free to feel that Elaine's books aren't to your taste. That doesn't make her a horrible writer.
Were they? I suppose I never played 2E enough without heavy house rules to know for sure.
Certainly, I've often thought that spell schools function better when they overlap or act as subsets of other spell schools.
I like the original Dragonlance trilogy quite a bit--and I read it well into adulthood.
There are a number of Forgotten Realms books that do stand out. Some of them would be very interesting if you look at possible candidates for a movie. In no particular order:
City of Ravens
Crypt of the Shadowking
The Shadow Stone
The Wyvern's Spur
Elfshadow
All of these are rather self-contained, not too exotic, well written, and have strong characters.
I also think, and here I'm going to upset some people, that Spellfire could be reworked into something pretty awesome. With themes of a heroine's journey of self-discovery, dracoliches, evil wizards, and awesome SFX, what's not to like? Note, you would still need to make a new script for it, cutting stuff like tons of characters and adding in a more coherent evil side. There is also nothing wrong in principle with Darkwalker on Moonshae, it is very cinematic and pretty down-to-earth, but it would also require reworking rather heavily, I think.
Spellfire might work, but who is your top picks for female lead?
Do we have anyone that could pull it off?
That's a secondary issue, really. There are thousands of talented young women out there who could nail the role, I think.
Yes but are they bankable?
I guess to see how the movie might work in my head, I'd like to think of a good lead who would give it a bit of gravitas :)
I just got butthurt when Jack Reacher was taken away from a good actor and gven instead to Tom Cruise - it just shows that name and $ > All - so if we are playing 'Fantasy League Movie' I was just interested in completing the pitch :)
I am... not an expert in the latest developments in the actor department. I am sure someone else could help, though? In my mind, I picture her as young, blonde and of slight build. She should look fragile. It is interesting that the pictures of Shandril that do exist are oddly divergent. I always found Ned Dameron's interpretation in Hall of Heroes the best of the available ones, though it makes her far too beautiful. She's supposed to be sort of pretty, as I understand it.
Knowing what I do of Hollywood, they would put in Jennifer Aniston or Angelina Jolie. *shudders*
Another thing worth noting: Narm is a pretty interesting role, in that he has a traditionally female role, and that actor could probably make or break the movie.
Do we have anyone that could pull it off?
Jennifer Lawrence. She's too obvious a choice maybe - the right age (or looks it) and she's pretty much in everything at the moment - but she's also quite a good actress and fairly adaptive to different roles.
I think that Hasbro could profit greatly by using the three Paizo adventure paths from dungeon. They could be made into mini-series format, 12 episodes, 2 episodes per an installment. Man I'd love to see Age of Worms.
Imagine the body horror and the amounts of squick.
So... HBO exclusive?
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Spellfire might work, but who is your top picks for female lead?
Do we have anyone that could pull it off?
Given the material, Kristen Stewart is the obvious choice.
Kristen Stewart? Sure, if she could actually deliver a line and not look slightly drugged doing it.
Jennifer Lawrence is a great actor, but is not built right. "Fragile" isn't going to work well given her body.
Hit girl, perhaps?
So... HBO exclusive?I think that Hasbro could profit greatly by using the three Paizo adventure paths from dungeon. They could be made into mini-series format, 12 episodes, 2 episodes per an installment. Man I'd love to see Age of Worms.
Imagine the body horror and the amounts of squick.
Uhhh... I don't get this. SC, AoW and ST are each 12 book episodes, IIRC. Each book episode is far more content than 42 minutes. How would this work? I do agree that seeing those things would be awesome, though.
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Okay, so I'm going to throw my two-cents here and then leave it alone.
In my humble opinion, the should not (and never should have done) a "Dungeons & Dragons" movie.
*pauses for the inevitable violent attack from the fans*
Let's dissect my statement, however, for it's root meaning. The term "Dungeons & Dragons" is a label for the rule set for a Role-Playing Game, not a setting. Typically, Game Masters (I use the generic term for this role) use the rules set to tell a story set in a world of their own creation, or in a pre-created game world that designers provide for players to use as their own gaming "sandbox" to tell their stories within.
So, having said that, unless they make a "Dungeons & Dragons" movie as a documentary discussing the evolution of the rules, the impact of the game, and/or teaching others to play the game, I feel this is going to fail horribly. With no real story background, we get all the terrible Hollywood Producers/Directors/Writers the opportunity to take a dump in the "sandbox" and present it to the fans as a "Dungeons & Dragons" game.
Now, that said, if they wanted to do a game that did good by the gamers of TSR/WotC/Paizo, then they would discard the use of the "Dungeons & Dragons" brand name, and try to make a movie based on the campaign worlds created by these companies. The campaign worlds have an amazing selection of stories told in source materials and novels that would be excellent materials on which to make amazing films.
So, here is my list of gaming storylines that I feel would make EXCELLENT movies originating from TSR/WotC/Paizo:
- Forgotten Realms: The Icewind Dale Trilogy
- Forgotten Realms: The Avatar Trilogy
- Dragonlance: The Chronicles Trilogy
- Pathfinder Chronicles: Rise of the Runelords
- Dark Sun: Rise of the City of Tyr
Any one of the storylines listed above would serve as amazing framework for a movie (so long as the Writer/Producer/Director put the time into it to make it a good movie). And the fan base is already screaming for movies like these to be made.
Lastly, I would like to urge the Movie Executives (however unlikely it might be that they read this) to do one thing. Do not throw a bunch of money at a big name actor to do this movie if they have no real interest in doing the movie to begin with. If the actor doesn't believe in the role, then he/she is not going to put their time into making it good.
Jeremy Irons has made it clear to people repeatedly that the only reason he did the first abysmal "Dungeons & Dragons" movie was because he needed the money to renovate his Scotland castle (do some research and you'll see I'm right). And after watching the first 30 minutes of the movie, you can see he's "hamming it up" and not putting himself into the role at all.
If you want good actors that believe in it, start with a good script and a worthwhile director (that means avoiding directors like Uwe Boll even if they're cheap and say that they would be perfect for the job). I'd rather have a little known director being given his first shot at the job than bring in a known terrible director to do a half-ass job in order to keep the license. Getting a little known director trying to make his mark is going to throw himself into this job and make sure that it will succeed (it has to; his future job security depends on it).
So, what do you think?
Tarrintino
Oh, right. The Night Parade could probably work, too.
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Spellfire might work, but who is your top picks for female lead?
Do we have anyone that could pull it off?
Oliva Tennant comes to mind. Well Rose McIver does too, but then we're creeping towards Dawson casting.
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I'd rather have a little known director being given his first shot at the job than bring in a known terrible director to do a half-ass job in order to keep the license. Getting a little known director trying to make his mark is going to throw himself into this job and make sure that it will succeed (it has to; his future job security depends on it).
Wasn't the lack of an experienced director part of the issue with the original D&D movie? His enthusiasm alone was not enough to make it a great film.
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Kristen Stewart? Sure, if she could actually deliver a line and not look slightly drugged doing it.
It was a joke implying the quality of her acting fits the quality of the material, as it did with the Twilight series.
Jeremy Irons has made it clear to people repeatedly that the only reason he did the first abysmal "Dungeons & Dragons" movie was because he needed the money to renovate his Scotland castle (do some research and you'll see I'm right). And after watching the first 30 minutes of the movie, you can see he's "hamming it up" and not putting himself into the role at all.
To be fair to the movie makers, Jeremy Irons is also nowhere near as good as he used to be. Back in the day, he did some very good roles on stage and screen but starting with D&D he seemed to lose the will to live or something. Almost all of his roles since then, most recently in THE BORGIAS, have been hammy and not really motivated.
The 'castle renovation' story is probably true as far as it goes, but I don't think it's a given he would have been great anyway. They probably should have gone for someone like Donald Sutherland, who often appears in quite shockingly bad movies but always brings his A-game.
Kristen Stewart? Sure, if she could actually deliver a line and not look slightly drugged doing it.It was a joke implying the quality of her acting fits the quality of the material, as it did with the Twilight series.
They do have a talent to pick out the terrible books, don't they?
The Night Parade? Oh boy.
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Uhhh... I don't get this. SC, AoW and ST are each 12 book episodes, IIRC. Each book episode is far more content than 42 minutes. How would this work? I do agree that seeing those things would be awesome, though.So... HBO exclusive?I think that Hasbro could profit greatly by using the three Paizo adventure paths from dungeon. They could be made into mini-series format, 12 episodes, 2 episodes per an installment. Man I'd love to see Age of Worms.
Imagine the body horror and the amounts of squick.
Sorry i meant 24 episodes 2 per installment. 1 hour per episode.
Jeremy Irons has made it clear to people repeatedly that the only reason he did the first abysmal "Dungeons & Dragons" movie was because he needed the money to renovate his Scotland castle (do some research and you'll see I'm right). And after watching the first 30 minutes of the movie, you can see he's "hamming it up" and not putting himself into the role at all.To be fair to the movie makers, Jeremy Irons is also nowhere near as good as he used to be. Back in the day, he did some very good roles on stage and screen but starting with D&D he seemed to lose the will to live or something. Almost all of his roles since then, most recently in THE BORGIAS, have been hammy and not really motivated.
The 'castle renovation' story is probably true as far as it goes, but I don't think it's a given he would have been great anyway. They probably should have gone for someone like Donald Sutherland, who often appears in quite shockingly bad movies but always brings his A-game.
Kelly's Movies is not that bad of a movie.
Kelly's Movies is not that bad of a movie.Jeremy Irons has made it clear to people repeatedly that the only reason he did the first abysmal "Dungeons & Dragons" movie was because he needed the money to renovate his Scotland castle (do some research and you'll see I'm right). And after watching the first 30 minutes of the movie, you can see he's "hamming it up" and not putting himself into the role at all.To be fair to the movie makers, Jeremy Irons is also nowhere near as good as he used to be. Back in the day, he did some very good roles on stage and screen but starting with D&D he seemed to lose the will to live or something. Almost all of his roles since then, most recently in THE BORGIAS, have been hammy and not really motivated.
The 'castle renovation' story is probably true as far as it goes, but I don't think it's a given he would have been great anyway. They probably should have gone for someone like Donald Sutherland, who often appears in quite shockingly bad movies but always brings his A-game.
You mean Kelly's Heroes?
There is a reason Sutherland is a legend. He has delivered excellent performances in many classic films (Don't Look Now, M*A*S*H*, Ordinary People, Six Degrees of Separation, the first great Invasion of the Body Snatchers remake).
I agree with Werthead. Sutherland is one of THOSE actors. Actors who automatically elevate all the otherwise crappy stuff they appear in, just by being there.
But back on topic, Salvatore is the worst sort of hack writer imaginable, and if they ever justified his happy accident of a career by making a flick from one of his properties, I'd jump off the Earth and happily fly away into space.
Kristen Stewart? Sure, if she could actually deliver a line and not look slightly drugged doing it.It was a joke implying the quality of her acting fits the quality of the material, as it did with the Twilight series.They do have a talent to pick out the terrible books, don't they?
The Night Parade? Oh boy.
I do believe either could become something worthwhile, really. Come on, compared to the ears of Damodar, the baseline is pretty low. It won't be brilliant if it is faithful, I am well aware. But for the love of all that's holy, there are suggestions about moviefying the Avatar trilogy............
I do believe either could become something worthwhile, really. Come on, compared to the ears of Damodar, the baseline is pretty low. It won't be brilliant if it is faithful, I am well aware. But for the love of all that's holy, there are suggestions about moviefying the Avatar trilogy............Kristen Stewart? Sure, if she could actually deliver a line and not look slightly drugged doing it.It was a joke implying the quality of her acting fits the quality of the material, as it did with the Twilight series.They do have a talent to pick out the terrible books, don't they?
The Night Parade? Oh boy.
Never read the Avatar trilogy, only heard about it. The Night Parade still is one of the few fiction novels I wasn't able to finish. And I managed to work through two Greenwoods and several Salvatores.
Question is... Would it work as a movie? A woman fights her way out of the slums in Calimport, marries a lord, and takes over running the city after he dies. She is confronted by a onetime love interest, who tells her she has a daughter and she has to go back. It has a visually interesting environment, a decent plot, horrible monsters, and acceptable characters. As with Spellfire, you would have to rework parts of it, of course. I read some Salvatore too, and I seriously have NO idea why someone would consider making a movie of any of it.
Possibly. I still can't see that working in any way, shape, or form. A sad part is his insistence on writing bad fight scenes (Mucknuggle and Drizzt back to back, turning around together for a tactical advantage, several times??? Seriously???) And that's without mentioning the most basic problem of showing an entire population of black people being horribly, terribly evil and perverted, then the one good black person going up to the surface where the white, good people live. *shudder*
Sooooo... add a warning before the film starts that "The fact that a black-skinned people is portrayed as sadistic, incestuous, murderous, demon-worshipping, perverted and generally foul people is not, in fact, due to the writer of the book this movie was made from. It is, instead, due to Gary Gygax, who designed the original game system for the setting the book was written in. The movie company does not intend for this to come across as racist in any way. Thank you."?
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Sooooo... add a warning before the film starts that "The fact that a black-skinned people is portrayed as sadistic, incestuous, murderous, demon-worshipping, perverted and generally foul people is not, in fact, due to the writer of the book this movie was made from. It is, instead, due to Gary Gygax, who designed the original game system for the setting the book was written in. The movie company does not intend for this to come across as racist in any way. Thank you."?
Y'know, I never saw the idea of a group of cursed underground dwelling fantasy elves being in anyway related to real life surface dwelling humans.
Then again, I'm not looking for race in everything.
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Sure, Matt. Or maybe as a guy who does look for left-handedness in everything, you're just unwilling to hear anything said against Drizzt because his ambidextrous two-weapon fighting suits your political agenda . . . :P
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Sure, Matt. Or maybe as a guy who does look for left-handedness in everything, you're just unwilling to hear anything said against Drizzt because his ambidextrous two-weapon fighting suits your political agenda . . . :P
LOL, well played. (To point, I don't bother with my sinister agenda until I see people demanding something that caters to their own agenda)*
*shrug* Basically I've never seen 'isms' where others have. I didn't find ERB racist (Tarzan, for example treats his tribe as peers, most of the blatent racism I read was from the bad guys) don't find the Drow = black people bit etc.
Now I understand some of TSR/WotC's missteps didn't help. (In addition to destroying the FR Drow pantheon (which I thought was a stupid idea), the "brown skin elves good, but black skinned elves are irredeemably evil" set a lot of people off.) I just don't see the need for a disclaimer. espcially as motion capture and overlay become cheaper.
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Actually, the amount of people looking for race issues in EVERYTHING annoys me to no end.
Drow are black skinned, not very very tan like people with African descent. Their skin is the color of onyx. Their hair is very light in color, and their eyes are red. And they glow. And lets not even mention that they are very short and lithe. [sarcasm]Cause that really evokes a picture of a black man in my mind.[/sarcasm]
But, people looking to be insulted will be insulted whether we want it or not.
Sooooo... add a warning before the film starts that "The fact that a black-skinned people is portrayed as sadistic, incestuous, murderous, demon-worshipping, perverted and generally foul people is not, in fact, due to the writer of the book this movie was made from. It is, instead, due to Gary Gygax, who designed the original game system for the setting the book was written in. The movie company does not intend for this to come across as racist in any way. Thank you."?
No, that's ridiculous. Don't add a disclaimer of every kind. People looking to get insulted will get insulted no matter what they do. If they portray Drow as light skinned, someone will whine that they are "white washing the drow" and if they portray them as they are, someone will whine as they are insulting black people because drow are black skinned.
Only idiots will consider a work of fiction racist, especially if the book it was based on was not written by a racist who was trying to extend his agenda.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know. On the one hand, I think anyone who looks at baseline D&D drow and sees a racist caricature is stretching, to say the least. On the other hand, I'm a white dude, so a lot of stuff that bothers other people isn't even on my radar, and someone who thinks that that something shouldn't bother other people because it doesn't bother them is boorish, to say the least.
But given how the red martians were handled in John Carter (safely ethnically non-denominational rather than red-like-a-fire-engine-is-red red skinned) I'm betting that drow on the big screen is just a non-starter, because Hollywood wants to leapfrog any potential misunderstanding, rather than because those misunderstandings would even happen.
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But given how the red martians were handled in John Carter (safely ethnically non-denominational rather than red-like-a-fire-engine-is-red red skinned) I'm betting that drow on the big screen is just a non-starter, because Hollywood wants to leapfrog any potential misunderstanding, rather than because those misunderstandings would even happen.
Interesting tangent,
As a small kid reading John Carter, yeah my mind painted the martians in technocolour. (fire engine red, lemon yellow, obsidian black) As I got older I 'softened' them to match more human colouration (not consciously, I didn't wake up and go, 'y'know, the red Martians really shouldn't be that red...') Then it never clicked to 8 year old me that the White Martians should be 'white-like-me' not 'white-like-paper' if John Carter could pass as one of them...
I do remember finding early on that the white Martians being the degenerated proto-ancestors and the black Martians being highly advanced pirates/slavers kind of interesting. Likely the cause of my experimenting with alternate civilizational norms in my musings.
I'm glad we avoided this with Thor 2.
The 'all drow are evil!' thing is not really true in the books: there's Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Zaknafien and Drizzt's youngest sister whose name I can never remember (though IIRC she was still a bit dubious, just not outright crazy-evil). Then of course the Eiliastree-worshippers show up en masse in other parts of the setting.
To deal with this in the film, you simply say that Lolth is an evil goddess, her priesthood is evil as well, and the nobility are morally ambiguous, but that the common drow on the street isn't inherently evil. There's oppression from on high and alternatives exist (as shown by Zak and Drizzt, and you can bring in a subplot about Eiliastree-worshippers seeking to overthrow Lolth as the main deity of the city) which then form a subplot in the films, culminating in the overthrow of Lolth in SIEGE OF DARKNESS (which actually doesn't happen in the books, but it's something that can be changed.
You can change quite a lot about the books to deal with these issues which, we must remember, won't even become issues unless the series is successful enough to get past at least three movies.
The 'all drow are evil!' thing is not really true in the books: there's Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Zaknafien and Drizzt's youngest sister whose name I can never remember (though IIRC she was still a bit dubious, just not outright crazy-evil).
It's been a long time since I ever touched a Salvatore novel but I seem to recall after the older sister bites it, the younger one goes full-on crazy evil and becomes the major antagonist of one of other books, the second trilogy I believe.