I've been thinkering with a rogue build that might ACTUALLY work. He'll fill the role of a melee combatant, but not that of a party's main tank and front-liner. Through the use of Enlarge and Lunge he can stay out of trouble while using Gang Up to get the flanking bonus so he can sneak attack.
The spells granted through the Eldritch Raider talents are meant to patch up his weak spots - his defenses, while the lvl1 spell gives him 13 touches per casting for negative energy touch sneak attacks.
Thanks to his fantastic UMD and skill mastery he can pick up any wizard/sorcerer item and use it with no problem whatsoever. Items for other classes are only at a +16 instead of a +20.
Thanks to Gillmen having a +2 con/cha, he isn't lacking in the HP department. Twelve of the favored class points went to an extra talent, which ended up giving him two extra talents.
Now, my idea at first was to create a rogue 'mage lord' - a rogue so good with UMD that as long as he has scrolls, wands and staffs he's basically an arcane caster. He uses his limited casting (through talents) for touch spells that turn his TWF/iterative attacks into a death machine, but apparently only Chill Touch works with that. So I opted for defensive spells instead. My problem is that now the build feels a little unhinged. I'm sure it can work, because he has good saves, good hp and a good AC with offensive defense AND ablative sphere 'up'. The will save is a problem, but future talents and an iron will feat can sort that problem out.
rogue 13 gillman
str 12 BAB 9/4
dex 19 (23) F4/R8/W4 -> 14/18/9
con 16 (20) 128HP
int 14
wis 12
cha 10
6+int+x skills
1 Combat Expertise
3 Gang Up (flank if 2 enemies threaten enemy)
5 TWF
7 Extra Talent (Offensive Defense)
9 Lunge (-2AC, +5f reach)
11 Extra Talent (Minor Eldritch)
13 Extra Talent (Major Eldritch)
B ITF
2 Detect Magic at will
4 Major Magic lvl1 Chill Touch
6 Weapon Focus Short Sword
8 Combat Feat (ITWF)
10 Skill Mastery (UMD, perception, disable, stealth, acrobatics)
12 Opportunist
F Offensive Defense
F Minor Eldritch lvl2 Defending Bone
F Major Eldritch lvl3 Ablative Sphere
B6 Finesse Rogue (Weapon Finesse)
B12Crippling Strike (2str dmg on SA)
1 stealth
2 acrobatics
3 spellcraft
4 knowledge arcana
5 use magic device
6 perception
7 disable device
8 climb / swim / survival
-Fire Vulnerability
-Can breathe air and water
-+2 vs non-aboleth enchantment spell/effects
-30f swim speed
-a +4 UMD for arcane items
-trapfinding
-uncanny + improved uncanny dodge
-7D6 sneak attack
traits
1 Armor Training (-1 ACP)
2 +1 Fortitude save
x2 mithril short sword +1 Agile
+1 short bow
+4 Cloak of Resistance
+4 Mithral Breastplate
+4 con/dex belt
+5 perception goggles
+5 disable gloves
+5 acrobatics boots
+2 ring
+2 amulet
Handy Haversack
Wand of Greater Invis (15 charges)
Wand of Enlarge Person / Endure Elements / Invisibility
Scroll of Gaseous Form (x3) Fly (x3) Dimension Door (x2)
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M
Duration 1 minute per level (D)
DESCRIPTION
An immobile, crystalline, weblike globe surrounds you. When the ablative sphere winks into existence, it provides you with improved cover (see below). The barrier does not impede a spell's line of sight or effect.
The sphere is 1 inch thick per caster level, has hardness 5, and 3 hit points per inch of thickness. When an ablative sphere loses hit points, the level of cover it provides is reduced. When the ablative sphere has lost one-third of its hit points, it provides cover instead of improved cover. Once it has lost two-thirds of its hit points, it provides only partial cover. Finally, when the ablative sphere's hit points reach 0, the globe is destroyed. When an attack reduces an ablative sphere's hit points to 0, you take any remaining damage.
Improved Cover
In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a Medium creature’s skull or femur), DF
Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged
You animate a bone with necromantic energy, giving it the power to float near your body and interpose itself against physical attacks. This gives you damage reduction 5/bludgeoning.
Once the bone has prevented a total of 5 points of damage per caster level (maximum 50 points), it is destroyed and the spell is discharged. This spell has no effect if you have damage reduction from another source.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-gillmen/eldrit ch-raider-rogue-gillmen
My question for you is how can I get that 'touch spells' based 'caster rogue' feeling back? Too many feats are spent on extra talents. TWF doesn't work with any touch spells, save for chill touch. Thanks to his high starting level of 13, I can easily patch up his AC and saves through items. I want him to be a master of UMD who blends that proficiency into his combat style. Add in one level 1, 2 and 3 spells that he can cast twice a day and that should be doable, right? Right..?? HELP! :D
Ok, so you had to know this was coming:
If you are using "a rogue so good with UMD that as long as he has scrolls, wands and staffs he's basically an arcane caster," then why aren't you just making an arcane caster? What do you gain by being a Rogue UMDing magic items, over an actual arcane caster (even just a Bard) actually casting those spells, and/or making the magic items your Rogue would be UMDing more efficiently?
SA, skills, and that certain roguey feel that no one can quite define but quite a few have discovered can be gotten through another class.
Evasion, uncanny dodge, those wonderful talents and the amazing To Hit and spectacular Sneak Attack damage of course. I want a scoundrel/happy-go-lucky Cayden feel to it.
Evasion, uncanny dodge, those wonderful talents and the amazing To Hit and spectacular Sneak Attack damage of course. I want a scoundrel/happy-go-lucky Cayden feel to it.
Er, are you joking? Honestly, I can't tell. I apologize if I come off like a douche here, but:
1) Evasion is "eh" at best, because Reflex saves are the least important--they only deal damage (with very few exceptions). Also, other classes get it, and it comes in a ring.
2) Uncanny Dodge is something I have literally never seen used ever. I'm not saying it's pointless or useless, just that I've played 3rd edition from the beginning and it's just absolutely never come up. Improved Uncanny Dodge, maybe, to deny flanks, but there's a feat for that anyway. Flat-footed just happens so rarely, since everyone pumps perception and initiative so hard.
3) "Those wonderful talents" makes me think you're reading from a different list than me. The general consensus is that the best talents are the bonus feats, whereas just about every other class with a special thing on even levels (rage powers, hexes, revelations, etc.) spend the majority of their feats on getting more of them. Rogue talents are weak. Ninja talents are definitely better, but still "eh" compared to stuff other classes get.
Also, let me point out what you used your talents on:
4 went to abilities spellcasters get anyway
3 went to feats
1 let you take 10 on some skills in combat--does this matter?
1 deals miniscule amounts of strength damage, even though the majority of dangerous foes that you face when you get it will either not care about strength or be immune to ability damage.
Offensive Defense is actually ok, but not worth being a Rogue for.
4) Amazing to-hit? Rogues (and monks) have the worst accuracy of anyone expected to fight in the game. Every other (non-monk) 3/4 BAB class has a way to self buff their attack bonus.
5) Spectacular Sneak Attack? Sneak Attack is one of the worst extra damage mechanics in the game (seriously, I'd much rather have weapon trianing, smite, favored enemy, challenge, rage, spellstrike, inspire courage, judgment, Wild Shape, even some domains, than Sneak Attack). It doesn't increase on a crit, some enemies are immune, it's on a chassis with a poor hit bonus, and Vivisectionist Alchemists do it better in every way.
So, I guess, compared to a real caster, I don't see the appeal. Bards can do everything this character can do and more, since they have better skills, actual spells, and instead of just raising damage situationally, their Inspire Courage raises the entire pary's accuracy and damage, or, if you're a Dawnflower Dervish, it significantly buffs your hit and damage and handily out DPRs a rogue sneak attacking either way.
A Vivisectionist Alchemist can do all this character can do, including sneak attack, and way more since they're not limited to four "spells" and they have enough self buffs to actually have a good hit chance and they care about Int enough to have just as many skills.
So, again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but here's the thing: you made a really good rogue--it's really useful and one of the best rogues I've seen. But, even as one of the best rogues I've seen, it's not as good as an average member of the sort of class you built your character to imitate.
The party I'm in already has a bard. A dawnflower dervish 11 / paladin 2 archer to be precise. The DM loves to run 2nd edition style adventures with dungeons filled with traps and the rogue player we have is only there for one in every five sessions, at best. The only 'proper' arcane caster is a blaster sorceress, so a wizard might be more useful.
And yes, my post was a little sarcastic .. sorry :P
I guess I'll look into making a transmutation specialist.