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Hi all,
just a post to see how you rule the item Powder
"Powder: Powdered chalk, flour, and similar materials are popular with adventurers for their utility in pinpointing invisible creatures. Throwing a bag of powder into a square is an attack against AC 5, and momentarily reveals if there is an invisible creature there. A much more effective method is to spread powder on a surface (which takes 1 full round) and look for footprints."
Invisibility has a bigish thread going on regarding the total bonuses when you stealth and are invisible.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2po5i&page=1?Invisibility-fun
The bonus involved could mean that a character with a +8 stealth modifier and a roll of 6 would require a perception check as high as DC74 to pinpoint.
How does this relate to Powder and what the item implies?
Normally a non-magical mundane item will grant a +2 to +5 bonus. In the event of a DC74 check this is almost pointless. However, the alternative, a Perception based Tracking check seems too easy in comparison. Even on a Hard surface this is a full round action with a base DC20. Thats without the powder. If they are walking on a soft surface the DC could be as little as 10 or 5 for a very soft surface.
I would think that powder would have to count as Very Soft ground.
Keep in mind that finding tracks is "at least a full round action." So at best the track finder would be able to figure out what square the invisible creature is in before it can move.
Spreading powder "on a surface" is also a full round action, and it does not indicate how big of a surface it can cover, many GMs will probably limit it to one 5 foot square.
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Wow, that's very unclear. Not much to go on. Does officially printed source for the rule about Powder explain it in more detail than the SRD does?
I hate terms like "momentarily"; they don't belong in a rulebook that otherwise has several very specifically defined game terms for certain periods of time. Is "momentarily" one round? Two? A minute? Who knows.
In any case, it says it helps pinpoint invisible creatures, so clearly using powder either to fill the air with it or spread it around for tracks, will pinpoint the invisible creature which will still get Total Concealment.
The duration is unspecified - for the powder cloud, once the creature moves out of it the effect ends, but how long does it float "momentarily" in the air? No idea, up to each DM. I just tried it, with no breeze, it lingered for about 10 seconds - more than one round, less than two, so I would allow someone to do this and have the effect good until the end of their following round, so they could powder and maybe even attack next round. For the powder on the ground, I would say that works indefinitely until it gets swept up or blown away - once it's there, anyone walking in it will disturb it, and where their tracks stop, there they are (pinpointed).
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@ Ninja while it is a round to spread powder and at least a round to spot tracks, the powder item implies that you can use environmental factors to spot an invisible opponent.
If you look at tracking under survival, you can spot tracks relatively easily (compared to an invisible opponent). Once you have spent your round pinpointing them by spotting their tracks you can highlight the square to your allies as a free action. If they act before the invisible opponent then they can potentially attack into the square as per the invisibility rules.
@ DM_Blake the "moment" I imagine refers to simply highlighting there is an invisible opponent there. It doesn't reveal them for a round, I would imagine they still count as full concealment for the purpose of attacks, but its pretty unclear.
It's the last sentence that puts the fox amongst the chickens. If you can simply look for footprints, the hardest the DC is likely to be is DC20 base without powder. How does that fit with the rest of the rules???
Yes, there is a big difference between "reveals if there is an invisible creature there" (which is what it says) and "reveals invisible creature there" (which it doesn't say). The first case, combined with the fact that it says "pinpointing" in the Powder description, lets know the square contains an invisible creature (according to the Invisibility rules about "pinpointing") but it never says the creature is actually revealed so it is still invisible but pinpointed.
So yes, it gets full concealment according to the Invisibility rules about Pinpointing. That doesn't even seem unclear since the Pinpointing rules are quite clear on this point: "If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance)."
I only see one fox in the chicken coop. Powder gives you two options, throw it in the air to pinpoint an invisible creature or spread it around the floor and look for footprints to pinpoint an invisible creature. The cloud trick takes one standard action (an attack) but has an unspecified duration, the spread trick takes a full round but no attack roll, also with an unspecified duration, Survival check DC 10 (soft ground because of frequent shallow footprints, assuming medium invisible creature or adjust for size) - that's automatic with "Take 10" even if you have no ranks in Survival unless you also have a WIS penalty. The "fox" is the duration of both effects. My test was good for about two rounds airborne, but it would last much longer on the ground unless there were a lot of wind that day.
I say go for it. Apparently some people are having Perception DCs up in the triple digits, so at least in some campaigns, there is absolutely no way, ever, to perceive invisible foes using Perception, so might as well switch to Survival, the DCs are very achievable.
At least until some new supplement adds a DustBuster (tm) to the equipment list, then every invisible guy will run around vacuuming up your powder...
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Lol, indeed.
I think a lot of it comes down to peoples expectations.
If you are a high magic player, you want the most form your spells. You can't see why they should be undone by mundane means.
If you are a low magic player you want to undo magic with mundane means.
There are a lot of grey areas, I believe they are left so to allow people to play as they want.
Unfortunately there is PFS and those who wish absolute rulings.
An area which is less controversial, but often exploited is Disable Device and traps. Can you disable device with a clever idea? Can you confound a spell with a clever idea?
Thus crossing a pit with a rope is effectively disabling a device. Setting it off with a summoned creature is effectively disabling a device.
Spotting an invisible creature with its tracks is effectively minimising an invisibility spell, but by no means cancelling it...