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I guess this question is only for those who have this supplement from Super Genius Games. it's a base class from our world, a soldier who got magically transported to Golarion. He's supposed to have modern guns and his class abilities are "aimed" at using those guns.
I'm going to have to discuss all this with the DM, so I'm looking for ideas from the clever masses before I have that discussion.
1. I am thinking about playing an Enforcer from level 1. To be playable, he probably needs to begin with a gun valued at a minimum of 900gp which is quite a bit of starting cash. I'm looking for ideas to balance that; I'm pretty sure the other level 1 characters are going to have normal starting wealth. I also don't think I can simply wait until I have 900 GP and then go buy the gun; I will be trapped in this world and those weapons won't exist here so if I don't start with it, I will never have it.
2. Actually, I'd like to have two guns, a pistol sidearm and a more robust gun, such as an assault rifle, worth 2,400gp. By level 4-5, this won't be a big deal, but what about the super low levels when it seems to be somewhat game-breaking? How do I get these guns later if I don't start with them - the book suggests that I have some kind of trick to go back and forth to my world, but that creates different problems, like why don't I bring medicine, hand grenades, or even a tank back with me? In order to avoid those plot holes, I prefer to just not have access to this world anymore. Besides, I like the "I'm lost and I am trying to get back to my world" player concept - maybe it would evolve into being happy to remain, if and when the campaign gives me a RP reason for it. Either way, no going home for more guns.
3. What about ammunition? If I need to use these guns for 20 levels, my first level guy has to arrive with a truckload of ammo. Should a modern assault rifle fire the same bullets as a Gunslinger's alchemical firearm? If so, then I can probably find ammo in many markets. If not, how do I get ammo?
4. I'm also curious to find out if anyone has tried using the alternate Firearms rules form this book and if so, how well are they balanced against the APG?
(does this belong in the Compatible Products forum? That forum seems to be more for advertising than it is for advice.)
1. they do see 2 for more
2.I would talk to your DM about this as the class need a lot of planning before the game starts.
3. like all other gunslingers you make it yourself. think like Burt Gummer.
4. use them and don't look back! guns should of work like this since the gunslinger class was made not hitting touch ac and causing massive problems for DM.
4a. yes this should be there as this is more 3rd party content and many here in the advice can not help.
First off 900gp isn't actually all that out of reach at 1st level, take a trait Rich Parents.
Past that point the GM to the gunslinger class, it starts out with a weapon/firearm though it needs to be 'fixed' (costing 300) to be used normally. The two things to take away from the class in your situation would be the starting equipment and the Gunsmith feat/ability. That would be the gun and the ability to repair/make ammunition to maintain your viability while adventuring.
I don't have access to the class right now but without switching out class abilities I would say taking the trait and using your first level feat would be a fair trade for those two.
Thanks for the replies.
I am planning to talk to the DM, but I'd like to give him options, so I'm soliciting interesting ideas.
Lunamaria Hawke, are you saying that you the SGG modern firearms rules are better than the Paizo firearms rules and that I should use the SGG rules for all firearms? Is this a preference or is it a statement of balance?
Rich Parents, forgot about that. OK, I can afford one gun but not two. Was really looking forward to having a longer range and/or burst fire gun for the right situations.
As far as the Gunsmithing feat and making ammo, am I reading it right? 26 gp per bullet, but the feat lets me craft them for 10%, still quite pricey at 2gp 6sp every time I want to hurt a bad guy. Also with a chance that I might explode carrying around a couple kegs of black powder on adventures, hoping I don't get hit with a fireball...
Unless you have a huge source of ammo, using two guns right out of the bullpen doesn't make much conceptual sense, anyway.
As far as the rules themselves: in my upcoming campaign world sourcebook, I'm going to be using the SGG rules as a basis, not the Gunslinger stuff.
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Sweet, that looks like two votes for SGG rules being balanced for guns.
No, I wasn't planning on dual-wielding the two guns. I was thinking more of a SWAT team member who gets involved on an invasion to a "cult compound" near Los Angeles, armed with some kind of assault rifle and a pistol sidearm, with a few clips for each, only the cult has real magic and some cultist blips the SWAT team member into a vortex and he ends up in Golarion, never to see Earth again. No way to get a gun later. No way to return home. His entire adventuring career is what he brings with him. Golarion is not being flooded with modern firearms (though I can't rule out the same cult sending some other law enforcement officials through a similar vortex, so maybe a few others may make an appearance from time to time, or maybe even cult members themselves).
So if I ever want a scoped rifle or a burst-fire assault rifle, I'll need them at level 1 (even if I can come up with a plausible reason they're not usable today but will be usable in a few levels) or I'll have to leave a loophole for the DM to have me luckily find them in a future encounter - Oh, look, another vortex just dumped some other unlucky SWAT guy in Golarion but that troll killed him so I'll just kill the troll and take those guns...
Otherwise I'll be on a perpetual quest to find guns, ammo, and a way home which sounds like it could take over the DMs campaign, or I'll have to ignore that quest much of the time when we decide to rescue damsels or plunder crypts.
You could focus on general ranged combat feats for the first few levels, mixing up the use of your firearm with crossbows. Then, down the road, you can either build some firearms or try to find some other source for them. A race like the Mercane could probably get you some. Note that magic can also create ammunition and firearms. If you can coach a wizard on the basics, major fabricate will allow you to create temporary ammunition, while fabricate will allow it to be created permanently. Ultimate Combat actually has a Fabricate Bullets spell (Sorcerer/Wizard 1).
EDIT: And for heaven's sake, don't neglect your melee options. While a gun wielding Enforcer is awesome, a gunslinging Enforcer with a +1 shocking scimitar as a side weapon is even better.
No, I wasn't planning on dual-wielding the two guns. I was thinking more of a SWAT team member who gets involved on an invasion to a "cult compound" near Los Angeles, armed with some kind of assault rifle and a pistol sidearm, with a few clips for each, only the cult has real magic and some cultist blips the SWAT team member into a vortex and he ends up in Golarion, never to see Earth again. No way to get a gun later. No way to return home. His entire adventuring career is what he brings with him. Golarion is not being flooded with modern firearms (though I can't rule out the same cult sending some other law enforcement officials through a similar vortex, so maybe a few others may make an appearance from time to time, or maybe even cult members themselves).
So if I ever want a scoped rifle or a burst-fire assault rifle, I'll need them at level 1 (even if I can come up with a plausible reason they're not usable today but will be usable in a few levels) or I'll have to leave a loophole for the DM to have me luckily find them in a future encounter - Oh, look, another vortex just dumped some other unlucky SWAT guy in Golarion but that troll killed him so I'll just kill the troll and take those guns...
Otherwise I'll be on a perpetual quest to find guns, ammo, and a way home which sounds like it could take over the DMs campaign, or I'll have to ignore that quest much of the time when we decide to rescue damsels or plunder crypts.
Having a similar concept in mind myself, I’m dotting this for great interest. ;)
I've actually heard the SSG rules were 'better' and more balanced as well for what it is worth.
As for the weapons, gunsmithing feat would be able to allow you create weapons with enough gold so what it really comes down to is if your GM is okay with advanced firearms or not. You don't need to have all of your options at first level, in fact most classes don't have that. Why should the enforcer be any different?
The enforcer is well versed in firearms, in a situation where magic is involved just about anything is 'possible.' As long as the enforcer can give a reasonable description and functional knowledge a magic spell should be able to produce a product. And that is a worst case scenario. There is no need to have all weapons and options available from first level when limted/wish is available, let alone fabricate, for purchase from an npc.
Well, to start there is a minor issue with the enforcer, several of the archetypes dont actually give anything significant at first and/or second level, which can make the class sort of slow to start. So giving it something like the gunslingers gunsmith ability at first level could work very well if you modify it to work with SGG firearms.
As for the firearm rules. I drastically prefer them to the standard pathfinder firerms rules, and use them in place of the ultimate combat rules wherever possible.
As for how to find ammo, learn to make it yourself most likely (see above suggestion about gunsmith)
I've actually heard the SSG rules were 'better' and more balanced as well for what it is worth.
As for the weapons, gunsmithing feat would be able to allow you create weapons with enough gold so what it really comes down to is if your GM is okay with advanced firearms or not. You don't need to have all of your options at first level, in fact most classes don't have that. Why should the enforcer be any different?
The enforcer is well versed in firearms, in a situation where magic is involved just about anything is 'possible.' As long as the enforcer can give a reasonable description and functional knowledge a magic spell should be able to produce a product. And that is a worst case scenario. There is no need to have all weapons and options available from first level when limted/wish is available, let alone fabricate, for purchase from an npc.
Nice, I like all the support for SGG rules, will make it easier to push those on the group :)
Not trying to argue, simply to rebut and continue the ideas and discussion. I'm not sure I can sell the gunsmithing idea to myself or the DM in terms of building a modern assault rifle, especially if the character is only level 1 in the modern world. Where in Golarion would he learn the necessary info and details to develop his gunsmithing trade to the point that he could build weapons that other Golarion gunsmiths cannot?
I know I don't need to have all weapons and all options available at level one, but the concept and the game verisimilitude make it seem like it would be more weird to find them later than it would be to bring them with me from Earth in the first place - which raises the issue of having way too much gear at level 1, so having it but not being able to use it initially, while not relying on awkward happenstance to get it later seems to be the right course.
Though I'm open both to suggestions how to make this happen as well as more suggestions for alternatives.
As for wishes and fabrication, I can see that as a possibility. My enforcer would have a good idea of what an assault rifle is, but would he have enough info in his head to describe one to a wizard (whose closest mental concept is a wand of magic missiles)? Would my description be so thorough that the wizard could then fabricate it? Maybe if it's my own wish, I could wish for it. I'd rather not have to wait until high enough level that wishes become available, and I'm stuck as to why I'd wish for a gun when I could wish to go back home to my world instead.
I suppose a RP reason might help - John Carter stayed on Mars for his love of the incomparable Dejah Thoris, even after he mastered the ability to travel back and forth to Earth, so all I need is a RP reason to stay. And a wish...
The archetype I'm going for is a soldier & SWAT officer, a firearms expert (or such as he's likely to be at level 1). The other archetypes don't interest me quite as much, though maybe playing Frank Dux or Rorion Gracie might be interesting, but that can be just as easily done with the Monk class (and I'd never try a ground-n-pound grapple specialist in the limited Pathfinder rules).
So I'm fairly set on gunsmithing and making my own ammo, though I'm more concerned about the verisimilitude of using gunsmithing to make modern firearms in a world that's just tinkering with simple flintlocks and blunderbusses.
Don't know how accurate the info in these links are, but it's a place to start getting info to show to your GM. :)
Apparently you can make an AK-47 out of just about anything
:)
Nice, I like all the support for SGG rules, will make it easier to push those on the group :)Not trying to argue, simply to rebut and continue the ideas and discussion. I'm not sure I can sell the gunsmithing idea to myself or the DM in terms of building a modern assault rifle, especially if the character is only level 1 in the modern world. Where in Golarion would he learn the necessary info and details to develop his gunsmithing trade to the point that he could build weapons that other Golarion gunsmiths cannot?
I know I don't need to have all weapons and all options available at level one, but the concept and the game verisimilitude make it seem like it would be more weird to find them later than it would be to bring them with me from Earth in the first place - which raises the issue of having way too much gear at level 1, so having it but not being able to use it initially, while not relying on awkward happenstance to get it later seems to be the right course.
Though I'm open both to suggestions how to make this happen as well as more suggestions for alternatives.
As for wishes and fabrication, I can see that...
With spells/abilities that allow you to detect thoughts, read minds or provide information through illusions (effectively a hologram, say of you field stripping the weapon) all available at low to mid levels you could very very easily provide the necessary information to a spell caster who can do a fabricate. The information comes from the character, their knowledge makes them special, the money they raise adventuring allows them to afford getting that information to someone else and get it created. You could even fluff it in such a way that you slowly 'invest' the gold you need to spend over the levels by having the parts of the weapon made as you level, so once you have spent the total you have all the parts for a ready weapon and can finally use it. This way you are the only person who knows what the total package is, each caster you work with only has a part of the total and there would be no proliferation of advanced firearms in the world.
If you really really need something else, say the character came over with a 'firearms handbook' with specs for the weapon (even some firearm periodicals have such write ups sometimes when they review weapons).