I'm not so sure I agree Jeven.
Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from on this, but I find it both charming, fitting and certainly quite awesome.
The guy next to me is throwing fireballs, weaved from invisible energy, that he can somehow shape by uttering some ancient algorithm, and waving his hands around.
Me being able to use "the power of music" seems entirely reasonable. Hell, as far as I remember, Middle-Earth was sung into existence.
-Nearyn
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I am amazed that people are so into the fluff of the Bard (and the core one at that) that they just can't get past it to check what the crunch actually is (ie, the RAW).
The focus on the fluff makes some of the crunch appear non-sensical and people have questions that should not be, by RAW. And I find this a bit frustrating.
However, at the same time, I have some fondness for people being so enthusiastic for the fluff of the class. Someone did a very good job here.
I am amazed that people are so into the fluff of the Bard (and the core one at that) that they just can't get past it to check what the crunch actually is (ie, the RAW).
The focus on the fluff makes some of the crunch appear non-sensical and people have questions that should not be, by RAW. And I find this a bit frustrating.
However, at the same time, I have some fondness for people being so enthusiastic for the fluff of the class. Someone did a very good job here.Visualizing a scene is also part of role-playing. The mechanics are the building blocks, but they are all meant to represent something which can be imagined (when you wish to).
I think the mechanics work best when they work harmoniously with our imagination.
Exactly.
RPGs are, at their core, about group storytelling, and the most memorable sessions are those in which everyone becomes immersed in the action and can visualize it happening. So I have no problem with someone who is troubled when the "crunch" and the "fluff" don't synch together to well and damage the level of immersion for that person.
That said, I don't share the same problem, as I have pretty much always visualized bards as either singing, talking or joking their way through fights and situations in a way that irritates the crap out of the bad guys and inspires their friends, and only playing their instruments during non-combat sessions.
I agree that the way the rules are now, unless the fluff is handwaved as unimportant (which a lot of people seem to do), seem to discourage the classic instrument-playing bard. I think the reason why is quite obvious. The developers wanted to make the bard a more powerful and mechanically interesting character class to play, and decided that was important enough to sacrifice the instrument-playing bard, at least for those people who can't just handwave the fluff and maintain immersion.
I'd have to agree with the developers' choice, from a purely mechanical perspective.
One last comment. While I agree that a bard character can probably be quite effective without a single rank in Perform, I find that kind of character sort of cheesy. Perform is the classic skill of the Bard, and if you don't have it in abundance, you're just not a Bard to me. I would suggest the developers find ways to make the Perform skill integral to the class again, perhaps in the same way Spellcraft is for casters.
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One of the major reasons I didn't like the Lord of The Rings movies was that they edited out Tom Bombadil. I guess it's just a question of flavour. I really wanted to see that hopping, dancing forest queen.
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So, this is arguably only relevant to the Golarion setting, but I will point out that Eando Kline, an example of a Bard (among other things) printed in multiple canonical, first party publications, invokes his Inspire Courage ability by saying a short prayer to Desna at the beginning of combat. That's all he needs to do, and then he's covered for however many rounds he wants to spend. So I think it's entirely reasonable to have a traveling lyrist or whatever walk around everywhere plucking at his instrument for mundane effect (because music is nice), only to play some secret magic chord at the beginning of combat in order to get the benefits of bardic performance and then wade into battle with a greataxe without having to worry about keeping one hand on the strings.
It seems like the best of all possible worlds to me; you can be a traditional traveling minstrel type while also being combat effective and not prancing around in the dragon's face with a lyre in your hands.
That said, I don't think there's a Perform (Fighting) skill, Abraham. Thus, my point is perfectly valid. If I'm in error, please elaborate... because I'm not seeing it ~_~
3.5 had it in Complete Warrior.
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"Soldier ask not now or ever where to war your banners go
Grasp the naked sword descending. Strike and do not count the blow"
"Men of Harlech stop your dreaming.
Can't you see their spear points gleaming?"
From "Zulu Dawn" where both sides sung.
"From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli
We will fight our country's battles on the land and on the sea"
"We did it before and we can do it again
And we will do it a again.
We'll lick the Germans and then we'll go and give the Japs what for"
"Up in the air junior bird men. Up in the air tough boy scouts"
oops
I wonder if maybe people are intentionally failing to grasp the constantly repeated point that Bards don't have to "do the whole song and dance routine" to use their bardic performances during combat. Perhaps since the word bard makes people think of music they feel that a Bard must make music during combats. As JJ and others have pointed out, this clearly isn't the case.
If the Bard sings and dances during combat that's a personal choice by the player. If you find it silly perhaps you should ask the player to behave in a way that's fun for you. Honestly they'll probably do what they want though. I've played with people who insisted on naming their PCs stuff like Kotex Bloodshield. I found it painfully silly, but I guess that sometimes play styles just differ.
I think of Tyrion (the Imp) from Game of Thrones as being like a really cool Bard. I recall that he once said something like, "I'm not good at physical violence, but I am good at getting other people to perform physical violence on my behalf".
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I'm not so sure I agree Jeven.
Don't get me wrong, I get where you're coming from on this, but I find it both charming, fitting and certainly quite awesome.
The guy next to me is throwing fireballs, weaved from invisible energy, that he can somehow shape by uttering some ancient algorithm, and waving his hands around.
Me being able to use "the power of music" seems entirely reasonable. Hell, as far as I remember, Middle-Earth was sung into existence.
-Nearyn
It's a matter of personal taste, really. I find the whole 'making magic with music' thing to be utterly facepalm-worthy.
This thread has gotten my creative juices flowing. Someone mentioned spiderman, how about a bard who thing is banter. They could bet their team mates dinner for who has the best kill. Then describe what they will order if they win. They will also causally ask who ever they are fighting if they want in the bet.
A large muscular body builder type who flexes and preens. He ties cords around his arm and neck and then snaps them by flexing.
A martial artists whose Katas and forms are truly harmonious with the universe.
Here are some things that could work for different concepts. Listing of either challenges the party has face or set backs they have suffered. For set backs, if any well liked NPC or even PCS have died, saying their names, with an implied their sacrifice will not be in vain. Just glancing at the bad guys, looking at your team and giving a "oh, we got this" nod; Just giving a hearty and/or maniacal laugh. If you want to be music, I bet Golarian cultures has some like "99 bottles of beer" but with killing stuff. I can definitely see dwarves having such songs.
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Ahem.
"At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud foice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before,
Arise,arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
With that he seized a great horn from Guthlaf his banner-bearer and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer roder there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be outpaced. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the bttle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green abou the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and the sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.
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If you want to be music, I bet Golarian cultures has some like "99 bottles of beer" but with killing stuff. I can definitely see dwarves having such songs.
[sings]
99 foes of dwarves on the field, 99 foes of dwarves !Strike one down, kick it around, 98 foes of dwarves on the field.
[/sings]
sickly noble girl who couldn't fight her way out of a paper bag. Int/Cha based support bard. had as her performances, Oratory, Dancing, Acting, and Puppetry.
Puppetry was an unusual perform choice, but it covered sleight of hand and disable device due to the finesse required to play with strings. plus, performing puppet shows with cute plush dolls was a very Moe way of earning tips.
she dumped STR and CON to 7
25 point fetchling bard
Str 7
Con 7
Dex 16
Int 17 (increase at 4th, 8th and 12th level)
Wis 12
Cha 18
Items included a series of magic petticoats that doubled as a handy haversack minus the weight, for storing her gadgets and her plushies, a gothloli dress enhanced to further push her intellect and charisma, taking the body slot, a pair of stockings enhanced to augment her dexterity and constitution, taking up the pants slot, an ascot that provided a resistance bonus to saving throws and a deflection bonus to AC akin to a sihidron ring in the neck slot, and special plushies that doubled as combat constructs and reskinned golems
her cohort, was her younger twin sister, an oblivious combat oriented angelkin oracle. her followers were mostly exotic servants at her manor.
the character is clearly not for the faint of heart, unless you like bringing along sickly moe blobs who like to play with plushies to give allies bonuses and are more likely to support through spells and items than anything.
she was clearly a support character, her twin took the hits for her, and she inspired everyone, including her disposable plush constructs that were reskinned small sized golems made of plush. it wasn't that they were powerful, it's that they were disposable and her tailoring skill could be used to augment them to overcome any deficit.
she started 9th level and survived to 16th before the campaign ended in mid 2012. but she lost consciousness quite often. it was a side thing that lasted 6 months. different group than weekly william though.
Edit; corrected the end date.
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer roder there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be outpaced. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the bttle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green abou the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and the sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.
Spot on. Music has a very powerful effect on emotion. I find it hard to resist getting up and moving to some pieces of music ranging from "Scotland, the Brave" to "Thousands are Sailing" by the Pogues. It can take you from the height of joy to the depths of sorrow. And that's just today in a fairly jaded society.
Magic was, if we take myth as any evidence, viewed by our ancestors as a powerful source of magic as well. You're far more likely to find someone using music as magic in mythology than the arcane spells modeled by hermetic or academic wizardry. From the stories of the Kalevala to Cairpre and the Pied Piper of Hamelin, music and poetry can have great magical power. So I'm totally on board with bardic powers and magic. I just think some of the implementation is a bit clunky. I'd rather see perform being a looser skill with a character picking multiple broad methods rather than just one from oratory, song, wind instruments, etc.
I just imagine that Bards are using some kind of music-focused arcane magic when they perform, sort of like background music in a movie or video game. We've even joked around about our Bards being our "walking theme music" when we enter towns. War drums and horns are an easy hallmark to having music in battles.
I once played a gnome Bard based on Bjork, who used illusion magic to enhance her performances and confuse enemies. It was a lot of fun, but she was eaten by a black dragon.
People looking for a visual example of a bardic performance need look no further than Rollo's battle-chant at the shield wall during the first season of the Vikings TV series. Simple. Appropriate. Effective.
To the Bard is all about action music.
My last bard did perform buffoonery and made fun of the enemy often enraging them.
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Bard performances don't have to be musical numbers.
A drill sergeant chastising his troops to excel is a bard performance.
A dancer spurring her allies on to greater inspiration in battle is a bard performance.
A general giving orders to the army at the start of the fight is a bard performance.
A tactician shouting out battlefield advice is a bard performance.
Furthermore, once a bard starts a bard performance... he doesn't have to "stand to one side singing." It's a standard action to start a bard performance, and at higher level this turns into a move action and finally a swift action. Once the performance starts, the bard gets to maintain the effects each round for free—he doesn't have to keep spending actions to perform. His performance becomes a part of all the actions he takes AFTER he starts the performance, be that fighting alongside the rest, casting spells, sneaking around, disabling traps, or whatever.
James, while I don't have it with me, a translation of Sun Tzu's The Art of War in the prefix mentioned special troops who would perform dramatic moves with polearms and other weaponry to rally the troops.
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... A dancer spurring her allies on to greater inspiration in battle is a bard performance...
That would be a distraction and probably not helpful.
... A general giving orders to the army at the start of the fight is a bard performance.
A tactician shouting out battlefield advice is a bard performance...
Strongly disagree. Those would be skills and experience. Dependant on intel or wisdom.
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I can see music as magic.
To a certain extent, I can see an inspiring performance.
But not during a fight. To many of us the thought that you can say something inspiring or play music while fighting in less than 6 seconds is just a step to far for our suspension of disbelief.
Most of the examples people have used are performances to inspire people before a fight, music being used as a timing device, or music as a communications method.
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My physical condition would not allow me to serve in the military. However, much of my family friends have. I have discussed things with people who have served since WW2 to recent events in the middle east. Trained veteran troops fight because of their training, for their unit, their brothers in arms.
The stiring speeches get you to put on the uniform and join up, look good on PR spots, sound good in movies and novels. They don't get you to climb out of the boat and charge into enemy fire. Any officer trying to give an inspiring speech is likely to be a casualty of friendly fire.
History shows there are 2 significant exceptions.
1) Low moral - Either raw green troops that have not faced combat and are losing their nerve or devestated beaten units that have had the moral knocked out of them. They often need some sort of charismatic leader to give them (back) belief in themselves.
2) Religous and/or fanatical units - Their courage is not based on their training and experience it is based on a concept. A reminder of the concept helps, before the blades and bullets start.
A bard could do a Bronx cheer and give his allies the bonus, because it is MAGIC. You want to know why people in the game world don't think a bard singing in combat is weird. Because it works. Don't you think if having a guy sing would give the equivalent of several months or more of weapons training virtually every general in the world would be doing so.
If we in this world saw some say gibberish while waving their hands around and holding sulfur and bat poop we would give probably cross the street posthaste.
I sympathize with the OP's reaction. As a matter of 'versimilitude', I'm a lot more comfy with the 4E Warlord's "fight, you dogs!" attitude than the notion that all PCs are so egotistical that a little song about them will give them a bonus to hit.
Why would the song have to be about the heroes? It could be singing a patriotic or religious song, or one of other people's valorous deeds. Imagine someone reciting The Charge of the Light Brigade.
It could also be ribald limerick, or happy birthday sung backward or birdsong or even a Lil Wayne style Ye'aah.