During the 2011 Conference of Interreligious Dialog in Hungary, italian sociologist Massimo Introvigne, speaking as representative of the Organization for Security and Cooperation of Europe, indicated that their studies showed that 105,000 Christians were killed each year, or 1 every 5 minutes. This number represented stricly martyrs, that's it, people killed specifically for being Christians.
That's nice, but you didn't tell me how he arrived at that figure. His website is in Italian, so it's no help. Google turned up a sample of his work which left me less than confident that he isn't just inventing numbers for propaganda value, considering the histrionic absurdities he saw fit to publish therein.
These numbers shouldn't be hard to come by and I found the total repeated in various rightwing Christian places. Yet it's never broken down to show how they arrived at the sum. I don't doubt that it's a fundie shibboleth, but that's only testimony to why we should be aggressively skeptical of it. If his group actually did the studies, then they should have a paper out with their methodology, etc. Do you have it?
|
Isn't this thread pretty far off-topic now? No one on the Paizo forums is nailing Christians to a cross or feeding them to lions or gunning them down in automatic weapon fire.
<tosses hammer aside, pockets the 20p nails and makes mental note to cancel the M60 training for the cubs...>
I jest, I jest.
In all honesty, I have seen discussion about religion on the boards, and I have seen some heated discussion/debate, but I have not seen anything truly over the top. Of course, I don't read all the threads here and a lot of stuff that falls into the OTD I don't bother with ...
And yeah, if you are sensitive to criticism about your religion, don't bring it up. There is no organized religion in the world that does not have someone's blood on its hands. Criticism is almost required in any religious discussion.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
I was christian as a child. then i read the bible and ranYeah I know that feeling. I read the entirety of the Bible and decided that I didn't want to be a part of them. It's why I wonder if people who say reading the Bible changed their life ACTUALLY read the Bible. Still, I don't fault anyone believing in whatever they want, as long as they don't actively harm others.
I'm a Mormon, so the extra books help.
Speaking of being persecuted for your religion, while Mormon's don't have it all that bad now, there was an execution order and several moments in history where members of the church were needlessly slaughtered. Ironically this was in the good USA, but this was also back in the 1800s before the Civil War.
Now we just have to put up with silly South Park jokes and bad representation on Broadway.
Still, while I do think this discussion was somewhat troll bait I do have to sympathize a bit with the OP. I am not going to say that I have been oppressed or persecuted but I have been insulted and accused of being something I am not.
I would be wrong to say that all homosexuals are like the very open, in your face, and kinky types that like to shove their sexuality in your face. My personal experience tells me that they can be very modest, friendly, polite, and somewhat closed about their life. Sex isn't even something they want people to be aware of, but love, attraction, and respect is. Just like it would be bad to make a gernarlization about all homosexuals, it would be equally bad to do the same for all religious (not just Christian) people.
I have to say that more often than not I have found that when discussing the same-sex marriage issue people assume I am against it, and homosexuality in general, because I am a Christian. More so because I am a Mormon. The fact of the matter is that while I do believe homosexuality is a sin, my definition and understanding of sin is different. I don't care to explain that here because that isn't what this discussion is about. One thing to clear up though: that belief that it is a sin isn't based on the Bible, and I think it is foolish to base arguments against homosexuality on a book that only has a few passages on it.
Now, even though I believe it is a sin, I don't think it is right to force people in any way to conform to my idea of how a life should be lived. In fact, one of the basic beliefs of my religion is that everyone should have the right to worship how, where, and what they want. I don't think it is a stretch to say that should cover how people want to live their life. One of the biggest parts of my religion though is about love and acceptance. Hate of any kind is not Christ like, and to deny someone kindness is a type of hate.
I have many family members and friends who belong to the LGBT community. Two of them are trans, and when they told me I congratulated them on their decision. It took much courage for them to tell even their closest friends. I haven't said anything to them about my religious beliefs, nor will I unless they ask. One of them though took a year to tell me because he assumed that I would condemn him and stop being his friend. When he learned that I accepted him, loved him, and supported him he cried. He cried because for so long he assumed I was something that I was not, he had judged me in a negative way, and found out just how wrong he was. It hurt him that he would be so close minded and judgmental about me.
So a warning to both sides of the discussions on same-sex marriage: Don't assume anything about the people you talk to. Let them prove themselves to you.
I am not a Christian. I was raised to be one, but the lessons didn't stick. I'm pretty sure I know the reasons why, but that's not what this is about and would just lead to another debate if I laid them out.
I am pretty much faith-agnostic, which is not the same as saying that I myself am agnostic, although I am. What I mean by "faith-agnostic" is that I don't think I can identify any one faith as being better or worse than any other faith. That doesn't mean that I think all faiths are good, nor that all faiths are bad. All that I have ever looked at are pretty much both simultaneously. That's the beauty and nightmare of faith itself. If you want to find something good about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism... whatever you pick, all you have to do is read a bit of their sacred texts. At the same time if you want to find something horrific about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism... whatever you pick, all you have to do is read of bit of their sacred texts.
That's sort of how faith is in this world.
It has been my experience that the best way to avoid being "persecuted" for ones faith is to not advertise ones faith in the first place.
As a Christain I've never had the problem OP stated. But then again I feel that God loves everyone and doesn't condemn people loving one another. Nor do I take the vernacular heavy Bible at face value. I take the verse that says you should study the Bible mean that you should be reading a study Bible full of contextual footnotes and cited historical evidence of the culture at the time.
I also view Christmas as a fun pagan holiday that we occasionally throw Jesus into. My babtist minister grandfather did not let my father celebrate Christmas. Thankfully he felt differently about my childhood.
So maybe I never have problems because my views are slightly different from your average stereotyped christain.
I was christian as a child. then i read the bible and ranYeah I know that feeling. I read the entirety of the Bible and decided that I didn't want to be a part of them. It's why I wonder if people who say reading the Bible changed their life ACTUALLY read the Bible. Still, I don't fault anyone believing in whatever they want, as long as they don't actively harm others.
I read the entire thing when I was 16. I got to Exodus, and realized that I didn't want to be a part of things anymore.
I did finish reading the rest of it, and the rest of it confirmed my initial reaction.
|
Thos deaths are more about two monotheistic religeons clashing violently than it is about rabid Atheists executing Christians, though.You should check how may people were killed because they were Christians in Soviet Russia or Revolutionary France. Not to mention those killed for similar reasons in China, Cambodge and other Communist countries.
Atheism too can be used as a driving force and excuse to kill people.
And polytheistic religions are definitely not exempt from being used in such a way either (as shown by the persecution of Christians in Rome or the slaughter of Christians in feudal Japan).
Stalin wasn't an atheist. He wanted people to worship him as a god essentially.
China isn't anti-religion. They're anti-anything that takes away power and influence from the party. Christianity is regularly used as an organizing force in politics all over the world, so Christians get targeted just like all other political opponents in China. They're not being targeted because of their Christianity specifically, they're being targeted for not toeing the party line. In fact, the Chinese government has an approved church for people to join, those who refuse and join citizen organized house churches are the ones who are targeted. Which sounds an awful lot like everything in China.
Do you imply that those who do bad things in the name of atheism (ie, against religion) are not true atheists ?
In a similar vein, you will find Christian people explaining that those who do bad things in the name of Christ are not true Christians. Muslim believers arguing that people who do bad things in the name of Islam are not true Muslims. And so on. Same thing for any belief really.
I was christian as a child. then i read the bible and ranYeah I know that feeling. I read the entirety of the Bible and decided that I didn't want to be a part of them. It's why I wonder if people who say reading the Bible changed their life ACTUALLY read the Bible. Still, I don't fault anyone believing in whatever they want, as long as they don't actively harm others.I read the entire thing when I was 16. I got to Exodus, and realized that I didn't want to be a part of things anymore.
I did finish reading the rest of it, and the rest of it confirmed my initial reaction.
Really when I got to the parts about jedi, dragons, and spaceships I felt differently about it. Then I read on about the LG lich preaching salvation to all who believe in him. At that point I was hooked.
It's all about the interpretation.
Thos deaths are more about two monotheistic religeons clashing violently than it is about rabid Atheists executing Christians, though.You should check how may people were killed because they were Christians in Soviet Russia or Revolutionary France. Not to mention those killed for similar reasons in China, Cambodge and other Communist countries.
Atheism too can be used as a driving force and excuse to kill people.
And polytheistic religions are definitely not exempt from being used in such a way either (as shown by the persecution of Christians in Rome or the slaughter of Christians in feudal Japan).
Stalin wasn't an atheist. He wanted people to worship him as a god essentially.
China isn't anti-religion. They're anti-anything that takes away power and influence from the party. Christianity is regularly used as an organizing force in politics all over the world, so Christians get targeted just like all other political opponents in China. They're not being targeted because of their Christianity specifically, they're being targeted for not toeing the party line. In fact, the Chinese government has an approved church for people to join, those who refuse and join citizen organized house churches are the ones who are targeted. Which sounds an awful lot like everything in China.
Do you imply that those who do bad things in the name of atheism (ie, against religion) are not true atheists ?
In a similar vein, you will find Christian people explaining that those who do bad things in the name of Christ are not true Christians. Muslim believers arguing that people who do bad things in the name of Islam are not true Muslims. And so on. Same thing for any belief really.
No, he is arguing that they are not doing them because of a conflict between athiests and christians but between a conflict of Chinese political party and Christian political activists. Christianity is a major political influence that creates enemies independant of its religious philosophies.
You cannot say that just because 2 people are of different religions that their conflict is over religion.
"Our game doesn't have homosexuality because we're all Christian."
What blasphemy! I could just as easily say "Our game doesn't have bread because we're all Christian." One does not relate to the other in any way. It saddens me that non-trolls could post something like that.
Now we just have to put up with silly South Park jokes and bad representation on Broadway.
Man, Trey and Matt must really have it in for you guys.
Thos deaths are more about two monotheistic religeons clashing violently than it is about rabid Atheists executing Christians, though.You should check how may people were killed because they were Christians in Soviet Russia or Revolutionary France. Not to mention those killed for similar reasons in China, Cambodge and other Communist countries.
Atheism too can be used as a driving force and excuse to kill people.
And polytheistic religions are definitely not exempt from being used in such a way either (as shown by the persecution of Christians in Rome or the slaughter of Christians in feudal Japan).
Stalin wasn't an atheist. He wanted people to worship him as a god essentially.
China isn't anti-religion. They're anti-anything that takes away power and influence from the party. Christianity is regularly used as an organizing force in politics all over the world, so Christians get targeted just like all other political opponents in China. They're not being targeted because of their Christianity specifically, they're being targeted for not toeing the party line. In fact, the Chinese government has an approved church for people to join, those who refuse and join citizen organized house churches are the ones who are targeted. Which sounds an awful lot like everything in China.
Do you imply that those who do bad things in the name of atheism (ie, against religion) are not true atheists ?
In a similar vein, you will find Christian people explaining that those who do bad things in the name of Christ are not true Christians. Muslim believers arguing that people who do bad things in the name of Islam are not true Muslims. And so on. Same thing for any belief really.
Nope, I'm implying that your pithy statements are inaccurate and demonstrate limited understanding of what happened in those countries.
|
|
I'm an atheist, and in my country (which is supposed to be a secular one, but where the president and the prime minister go to the patriarch for advice), being an atheist means being looked down upon by most people.
I'm a part-time cable guy. One old lady asked me if i believed in god while i was installing her a modem, and when i said that i didn't she threw me out. Telling that she doesn't want spawn of the devil inside her house.
Then, just recently, i was at my grandfather's grave commemorating a year since he died, and since he was a deeply religious man, there was a priest there reading from the bible and singing verses. Now, in christian orthodox church you're supposed to cross yourself every time the priest says 'amen'. I didn't because i am not a christian. The priest seemed more and more annoyed by this fact during his singing that when he finished he came straight at me and asked me in a very annoyed voice why didn't i cross myself. When i said I'm an atheist, he started ranting at me about hell and other stuff until my uncle told him to piss off.
|
|
...indicated that their studies showed that 105,000 Christians were killed each year, or 1 every 5 minutes...
A little off topic, but I absolutely abhor these ridiculous correlations of time and criminal activity: 1 killed every 5 minutes is utter nonsense.
Very possibly on one day, it just randomly equaled out to one murder every five minutes, on another day, only ten were murdered, and on another day over four hundred.
One every five minutes is a cheap way of making it sound more important, because it gives an unfortunate majority of people the impression that Christians (or whatever the situation counts, false imprisonments, car crashes, lost Troll Dolls, what have you) are literally being martyred right now, that at least one has been murdered even as you read a page of posts on the Paizo message boards.
It's just the time in a year divided by the number of incidents; it's not a real measurement.
Since I've had to remove several posts that seemed designed to incite a flamewar, locking this.