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Regarding the playing up and applying the chronicle later, I would support this so long as the playing up PC ALSO had the opportunity to accept the playing down gold if they so chose - that would help get them out of the lower tiers and get them to apply the chronicles faster.That was my intention, yes. The player should always have the option to take the rewards at their tier. I'm driving cross country today so I'll leave it to everyone else to discuss, and I'll check in later with some thoughts.That's a very nice addendum to that idea.
To sum up this solution so far:
If you play up, you can either immediately take a chronicle sheet for the lower tier (as though you hadn't played up), or take the higher-tier (the tier you played) rewards but have to hold it until you reached a certain level.
If the player chooses the delayed high-tier chronicle but needs to resolve conditions (including death), the resources of that chronicle can be applied to the resolution of those conditions. Any conditions (including death) which are not removed will be immediately applied to the PC (not delayed until the chronicle would be applied).Overall, I really like this idea. Probably my favorite so far.
This is very similar to the podcast thing from one perspective:
Either way, it doesn´t hepl a player clear conditions on his character or dead or other stuff that is more riesked because of playing up.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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This seems to be getting realy complicated and it does not have to. There is already a cap on how much you can spend on a certain item based on prestige. All we have to do is put a similar cap on total wealth (items+consumables used+gold) based on level or prestige and the problem goes away. If you play up and the gold you would get would put you over the cap you just don't get that gold. If you are forced to play down then you can recoup that money later by playing up with no game breaking effects.
This is even more complicated than any other solution I've seen. This would require the GM to go through every single chronicle on every single character at the table, add up all the gold ever earned, and compare it to some chart somewhere. It's just not feasible, especially at a con.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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This is very similar to the podcast thing from one perspective:
Either way, it doesn´t hepl a player clear conditions on his character or dead or other stuff that is more riesked because of playing up.
Read more carefully: I specifically said that if you needed to clear conditions, you could use the resources of the high-tier chronicle to do so, and then hold the remainder for later.
So if you play up into tier 6-7 of a 3-7 scenario, you can use the 6-7 gold to help pay for your raise, just like you currently can. Then (assuming you're alive now), you hold the rest of the chronicle sheet for later.
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Even the theoretical 26K is not worth making it harder to play. 26K still doesn't trump build differentials.I'm against builds as the ruin the scenario as much as anyone, but I find that is *builds* that are the killer, not the gold being thrown around. Feat combinations and class feature combinations are the killer, not $$. I personally don't see what the big deal about wealth is at all. At higher levels, a deviation of 5-10K is not the difference between effective and ineffective characters.But the issue isn't that the deviation is 5-10k gold. By level 6, the difference can already be 12k gold IF played at tier for none dead levels. If you play up every single session, the difference will more likely be around 26 grand difference. That isn't a small amount issue. The big thing is, the proposed change really won't stop the 12k gold difference anyways as you have the option of play up or down at dead levels anyways. It does stop the 26k difference...but really how many people play up EVERY single session to cause this? Are we gonna make it harder to run PFS, make people have to use pre-gens more just because of a tiny fraction of the player base?
No it does not...but the 26k does make build differential even more when the guy with the bad build is playing down at dead levels and has 26k gold less (this doesn't even begin to deal with people who have level 4-5 character that are playing down in 1-2 games for multiple sessions). Builds may trump gold...but gold ain't exactly a trivial issue either. So really the question remains, do we even care of gold equalization? Because there is a way to do that...but we need to separate gold and tiers if we are gonna do that.
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Cormac - That would make the time spent to fill out chronicles much, much longer. It already takes a good bit of time to fill them out at many tables - let's not make that worse.I'm gonna go out on limb here and guess that most GMs are gonna have access to a calculator.
Time for science!!!!
I'm gonna take a random number: 2613
I'm gonna take six sheets of paper.
I'm gonna multiply that number by 1, .95, .90, .85, .80, and .75
I'm gonna write the results one each on the six sheets of paper.
I'm gonna time myself doing all this.
Result: elapsed time 1:35
One minute and thirty five seconds does not seem to me to be in the category of "much much longer."
Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.
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What would be the option for Seasons 0-4?We could go with the "Out-of-tier gets average gold" method for the old ones. It shouldn't be any harder to calculate than slow-track gold is now.
How is averaging two numbers the same as circling a number already on sheet?!?
Yeah not exactly hard math here...but it is disingenuous to say they are the same.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.Cormac - That would make the time spent to fill out chronicles much, much longer. It already takes a good bit of time to fill them out at many tables - let's not make that worse.I'm gonna go out on limb here and guess that most GMs are gonna have access to a calculator.
Time for science!!!!
I'm gonna take a random number: 2613
I'm gonna take six sheets of paper.
I'm gonna multiply that number by 1, .95, .90, .85, .80, and .75
I'm gonna write the results one each on the six sheets of paper.
I'm gonna time myself doing all this.
Result: elapsed time 1:35
One minute and thirty five seconds does not seem to me to be in the category of "much much longer."
1:35 can be a lot of time if you have the next table of a convention breathing down your neck. You also have to figuer in the time that it takes to give everybody different gold on their chronicle and to make sure that everybody gets the right sheet for the right number. Day Jobs already take an inordinate amount of time compared to what we get out of them.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What would be the option for Seasons 0-4?We could go with the "Out-of-tier gets average gold" method for the old ones. It shouldn't be any harder to calculate than slow-track gold is now.How is averaging two numbers the same as circling a number already on sheet?!?
Yeah not exactly hard math here...but it is disingenuous to say they are the same.
Slow-track gold is not already written on the sheet in older seasons. The GM has to do math.
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This seems to be getting realy complicated and it does not have to. There is already a cap on how much you can spend on a certain item based on prestige. All we have to do is put a similar cap on total wealth (items+consumables used+gold) based on level or prestige and the problem goes away. If you play up and the gold you would get would put you over the cap you just don't get that gold. If you are forced to play down then you can recoup that money later by playing up with no game breaking effects.
So...by not complicated, you mean exceedingly time consuming and complicated? Because tallying up several dozen chronicle sheets seems to be epitome of complicated to me....
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Actually playing up every game from level 1 can net you 3-4 times WBL. Playing up at dead levels gives you about 150% of WBL and playing down at dead levels will net you about 75% of WBL. If we assume play at tier is some up and down at dead levels, you end up pretty close to WBL.
Yeah, it depends on what level you land at. Our level 7's for GenCon Bonekeep craziness are 9k short of 3x WBL in the CRB.
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I prefer the "delaying credit" idea (Ferocious Thune and I seem to have come up with it at the same time, but he's obviously a higher level ninja) better than the "single level per scenario" idea, simply because the current tiering and delaying credit both make things much easier on the organizer.
Having a single level per scenario would fix WBL, but it would make it much harder for characters to level up in general (at least for us experienced players, due to the number of available scenarios), and would make scheduling and mustering at gamedays even worse than the podcast-proposed fix (always take your tier or played tier, whichever is lower).
One of the big strengths of PFS is that the tiering system makes things flexible for organizers, which allows new players and old players to play together easily. If WBL is a concern, delaying credit (and using the exact same pregen rules that currently exist, but allowing people to play their own character up) will fix the issue without making things harder on organizers.
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Slow-track gold is not already written on the sheet in older seasons. The GM has to do math.What would be the option for Seasons 0-4?We could go with the "Out-of-tier gets average gold" method for the old ones. It shouldn't be any harder to calculate than slow-track gold is now.How is averaging two numbers the same as circling a number already on sheet?!?
Yeah not exactly hard math here...but it is disingenuous to say they are the same.
Fine, then dividing a number by 2 still isn't the same as averaging 2 numbers. Yeah yeah still simple math. However if you don't have a calculator, one can pretty easily be done on sheet while the other has most people needing a scrap paper (unless you scribble the math on the chronicle sheet).
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Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.
Are we overrun by Luddite and/or Amish GMs???? I guess we would never know as they would not be on the boards. I can, and do, assume a GM has access to a calculator, or at the very least one kindhearted soul at the table just might have one BUILT INTO HIS OR HER PHONE OR TABLET.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.Are we overrun by Luddite and/or Amish GMs???? I guess we would never know as they would not be on the boards. I can, and do, assume a GM has access to a calculator, or at the very least one kindhearted soul at the table just might have one BUILT INTO HIS OR HER PHONE OR TABLET.
You've never had your phone run out of batteries?
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After thinking about it for a bit, my favorite idea so far is that you have to hold credit when playing up until you reach the tier you played up into. GMs already hold onto credit for their characters until they are eligible, as do players that play pregens, so this is not a new concept for most people. It doesnt penalize people for playing up, it merely makes them wait to apply the credit as if they had played a pregen. It doesnt make it harder to form tables by restricting play, and it doesnt overly complicate things. I vote yes on this idea. If anyone sees a problem with this idea please speak up.
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Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.Are we overrun by Luddite and/or Amish GMs???? I guess we would never know as they would not be on the boards. I can, and do, assume a GM has access to a calculator, or at the very least one kindhearted soul at the table just might have one BUILT INTO HIS OR HER PHONE OR TABLET.
So...it's a requirement that a calculator be on hand at PFS site now? Or that all GM have a smart phone with batteries ready to go with the aps? Yeah not saying that MOST locals won't have access to either (hell most our game locals have tablets on hand for the session). But to basically require it I don't think is a good system.
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You've never had your phone run out of batteries?Now do that without a calculator. You can't assume your gonna have one on hand.Are we overrun by Luddite and/or Amish GMs???? I guess we would never know as they would not be on the boards. I can, and do, assume a GM has access to a calculator, or at the very least one kindhearted soul at the table just might have one BUILT INTO HIS OR HER PHONE OR TABLET.
Not all four to seven phones at one table at one time.
Not when I bought new/charged fully knowing I was gonna GM at a Con.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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This hasn't been addressed much, but I would also like to point out that this should reduce bullying by a great deal - the newbie level 1 playing up isn't risking nearly as much, since they have several levels to clear death or they can choose to apply a dead chronicle to a new number. Only those with the higher level PCs are at risk, and if they want to risk playing up, then that is their right. I highly approve.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I prefer the "delaying credit" idea (Ferocious Thune and I seem to have come up with it at the same time, but he's obviously a higher level ninja) better than the "single level per scenario" idea, simply because the current tiering and delaying credit both make things much easier on the organizer.
Having a single level per scenario would fix WBL, but it would make it much harder for characters to level up in general (at least for us experienced players, due to the number of available scenarios), and would make scheduling and mustering at gamedays even worse than the podcast-proposed fix (always take your tier or played tier, whichever is lower).
One of the big strengths of PFS is that the tiering system makes things flexible for organizers, which allows new players and old players to play together easily. If WBL is a concern, delaying credit (and using the exact same pregen rules that currently exist, but allowing people to play their own character up) will fix the issue without making things harder on organizers.
I love that this uses rules that are already in place. This is easily my favorite solution so far.
Rogue Eidolon did bring up the point that if someone is playing up because they're behind, this could put them farther behind. Any thoughts on that?
My thought is that what I'm mostly hearing from folks who seem to habitually have multi-level tables is that every so often a new person joins. It seems to usually be described that the first few people get to 3rd level or so, then they add a newbie at 1st level, then again a level later, and so forth. Well, with this system, the guy who's "falling behind" would then be able to play in-tier with new arrivals for a while. Then, after a certain point, his played-up chronicles kick in and he's caught up (or close to it) with the higher-tier PCs.
In a sense, this method actually makes it a tad easier to add in newer players because the "middle group" is playing in-tier at 1-2 (and then later jumping to 4-5) instead of playing down from 3rd-4th level into tier 1-2 with a bunch of extra gold and trivializing the newbies.
Did that make sense?
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The trouble with the hold credit method is that the new players end up further and further behind. I have a level 1 character and am brand spanking new to PFS. If the local groups are all on their 3-4 character, I can play at multiple locals, play up at multiple locals and STILL be level 1. Yeah I have all these sheet that will be great when I hit three...but I won't hit three under this system until some of those groups decide to play level 1 games. Then when I hit three, I'll have a level 6 character while they have a 3. I think it will make level disparity issues a lot worse in smaller PFS communities.
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After thinking about it for a bit, my favorite idea so far is that you have to hold credit when playing up until you reach the tier you played up into. GMs already hold onto credit for their characters until they are eligible, as do players that play pregens, so this is not a new concept for most people. It doesnt penalize people for playing up, it merely makes them wait to apply the credit as if they had played a pregen. It doesnt make it harder to form tables by restricting play, and it doesnt overly complicate things. I vote yes on this idea. If anyone sees a problem with this idea please speak up.
Two words: Instant gratification. I like my food pellets when I push the lever, please.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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I prefer the "delaying credit" idea (Ferocious Thune and I seem to have come up with it at the same time, but he's obviously a higher level ninja) better than the "single level per scenario" idea, simply because the current tiering and delaying credit both make things much easier on the organizer.
Having a single level per scenario would fix WBL, but it would make it much harder for characters to level up in general (at least for us experienced players, due to the number of available scenarios), and would make scheduling and mustering at gamedays even worse than the podcast-proposed fix (always take your tier or played tier, whichever is lower).
One of the big strengths of PFS is that the tiering system makes things flexible for organizers, which allows new players and old players to play together easily. If WBL is a concern, delaying credit (and using the exact same pregen rules that currently exist, but allowing people to play their own character up) will fix the issue without making things harder on organizers.
I love that this uses rules that are already in place. This is easily my favorite solution so far.
Rogue Eidolon did bring up the point that if someone is playing up because they're behind, this could put them farther behind. Any thoughts on that?
My thought is that what I'm mostly hearing from folks who seem to habitually have multi-level tables is that every so often a new person joins. It seems to usually be described that the first few people get to 3rd level or so, then they add a newbie at 1st level, then again a level later, and so forth. Well, with this system, the guy who's "falling behind" would then be able to play in-tier with new arrivals for a while. Then, after a certain point, his played-up chronicles kick in and he's caught up (or close to it) with the higher-tier PCs.
In a sense, this method actually makes it a tad easier to add in newer players because the "middle group" is playing in-tier at 1-2 (and then...
If people are playing up because they are behind, this solution still works,because as I pointed out earlier, the low level PC could opt to take the low tier gold instead of the high tier gold, and thus apply the chronicle immediately.
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2) There is no pregen Magus, or anything from the APG
APG stands for Advanced Player's Guide. If I'm giving a player a pregenerated character, it is not going to be an alchemist, inquisitor, or magus, because those classes are incredibly complicated. Pregens are built for ease of play while still being able to contribute.
[spoiler="quibble that is a distraction from the thread"]
I'm not sure that holds water, if you consider there are pregen Samurai, Ninja and Gunslinger. That last of those being both complex, and weird.The truth is more likely that creating pregens for the 11 core classes, 7 base classes, and 2 alternate classes (Anti-paladin being out.) Would be time consuming and and a bit of a distraction. If someone comes to the table asking for a pregen and you give them 20 choices, they are going to mull. Even 7 choices drags outs sometimes.
In spite of that, I would love if the NPC Guide to be sanctioned.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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After thinking about it for a bit, my favorite idea so far is that you have to hold credit when playing up until you reach the tier you played up into. GMs already hold onto credit for their characters until they are eligible, as do players that play pregens, so this is not a new concept for most people. It doesnt penalize people for playing up, it merely makes them wait to apply the credit as if they had played a pregen. It doesnt make it harder to form tables by restricting play, and it doesnt overly complicate things. I vote yes on this idea. If anyone sees a problem with this idea please speak up.Two words: Instant gratification. I like my food pellets when I push the lever, please.
Then you can go ahead and take the low tier gold.
Question, though - what about a level 3? Can a level 3 playing up go ahead and take high tier gold? Can somebody activate a 4-5 chronicle at level 3?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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2) There is no pregen Magus, or anything from the APG
APG stands for Advanced Player's Guide. If I'm giving a player a pregenerated character, it is not going to be an alchemist, inquisitor, or magus, because those classes are incredibly complicated. Pregens are built for ease of play while still being able to contribute.
[spoiler="quibble that is a distraction from the thread"]
I'm not sure that holds water, if you consider there are pregen Samurai, Ninja and Gunslinger. That last of those being both complex, and weird.The truth is more likely that creating pregens for the 11 core classes, 7 base classes, and 2 alternate classes (Anti-paladin being out.) Would be time consuming and and a bit of a distraction. If someone comes to the table asking for a pregen and you give them 20 choices, they are going to mull. Even 7 choices drags outs sometimes.
In spite of that, I would love if the NPC Guide to be sanctioned.
Good news! The pregens are already sanctioned from it.
Edit: I complained about it earlier because they are not formatted in a player-friendly format, and I'd have to give out my book in order to let somebody else use them. A few of them have been reformatted by fans, but not all of them. They also are not available for level 4, which is a pain.
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2) There is no pregen Magus, or anything from the APG
APG stands for Advanced Player's Guide. If I'm giving a player a pregenerated character, it is not going to be an alchemist, inquisitor, or magus, because those classes are incredibly complicated. Pregens are built for ease of play while still being able to contribute.
[spoiler="quibble that is a distraction from the thread"]
I'm not sure that holds water, if you consider there are pregen Samurai, Ninja and Gunslinger. That last of those being both complex, and weird.The truth is more likely that creating pregens for the 11 core classes, 7 base classes, and 2 alternate classes (Anti-paladin being out.) Would be time consuming and and a bit of a distraction. If someone comes to the table asking for a pregen and you give them 20 choices, they are going to mull. Even 7 choices drags outs sometimes.
In spite of that, I would love if the NPC Guide to be sanctioned.
You quoted that reply as responding to me, but actually that post was Mergy's.
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My suggestion to address the concerns with the "delayed credit" method would be:
1) A player can choose to take low-tier gold, allowing them to get their chronicle and apply it right away.
2) A level 3 would be able to take high tier gold (since they are able to both now and under the MJM system proposed in the blog). A 1-2 playing at 4-5 would therefore get their high-tier credit at level 3.
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After thinking about it for a bit, my favorite idea so far is that you have to hold credit when playing up until you reach the tier you played up into. GMs already hold onto credit for their characters until they are eligible, as do players that play pregens, so this is not a new concept for most people. It doesnt penalize people for playing up, it merely makes them wait to apply the credit as if they had played a pregen. It doesnt make it harder to form tables by restricting play, and it doesnt overly complicate things. I vote yes on this idea. If anyone sees a problem with this idea please speak up.Two words: Instant gratification. I like my food pellets when I push the lever, please.Then you can go ahead and take the low tier gold.
Question, though - what about a level 3? Can a level 3 playing up go ahead and take high tier gold? Can somebody activate a 4-5 chronicle at level 3?
That would be my preference. If you're in between tiers you aren't playing up out of a tier. Although that would contradict the way GMs do it, since they have to apply the lower tier. Hmm.
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For the delayed credit idea, you could probably go either way on the whole "activate the held credits at the in-between level or at the first level of the subtier" issue, and it wouldn't be a huge deal.
Yeah, I'm also ok with either holding til the first level of the high tier or the level right before. This would be up to campaign staff.
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For the delayed credit idea, you could probably go either way on the whole "activate the held credits at the in-between level or at the first level of the subtier" issue, and it wouldn't be a huge deal.Yeah, I'm also ok with either holding til the first level of the high tier or the level right before. This would be up to campaign staff.
This could actually lead to a huge simplification of three separate sets of rules: Pregen Credit, GM Credit, Player Credit.
Default for all three: Hold the credit until the level of the tier played (players) or the first appropriate level within the tier (GMs).
Pregen Option: Start a new character.
GM Option: Don't take credit.
Player Option: Take the lower tier rewards.
Boom.
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"wait weeks or months to apply credit for the adventure I JUST played, at the level my character ALREADY IS"
Uh ... no? If your character is already at that level, then this entire system is irrelevant.
If your character isn't at that level, then you wait to apply the credit, and you only wait exactly as long as it takes you to get to that point, which is really up to you in a lot of ways, wouldn't you say?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I absolutely HATE the idea of having to wait to apply the credit for my adventures, which is a major reason why I avoid playing higher level pregens like the plague. At least with the higher level pregens there's a good REASON to hold the credit: that higher level character risked a LOT less than my lower level character would. But holding the chronicle until level three, when I took the risk to play it at level one?
What happens to the consumables I used? Do they go away immediately, with me being unable to afford to replace them, or do I get to use them repeatedly? What happens if I have no choice but to keep playing at subtier 4-5 with a brand new character, because that's all that's available? Am I doomed to be forever level 1 with zip for cash?
Some of your concerns have already been answered, if you'd just slow down and read the details instead of jumping into your reply before you've finished reading.
The "hold the credit" plan gives you an OPTION:
You can choose to take high-tier credit later,
OR
You can choose to take low-tier credit now.
Are you concerned about being "forever level 1"? Then take your appropriately-tiered chronicle now and grow your character. Was this an isolated incident to make a table happen so you're not worried about falling behind? You can choose to take a delayed high-tier reward. Need to spend lots of cash to clear some conditions? You can choose the high-tier reward, spend its gold on condition removal, then hold the rest of the chronicle until you qualify. Did your high-level buddies steamroll the scenario so that you don't have any extra expenses/consumables to cover? You can choose to take level-appropriate wealth right now. Kind of an iffy situation? You get to use your best judgment.
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Are you concerned about being "forever level 1"? Then take your appropriately-tiered chronicle now and grow your character. Was this an isolated incident to make a table happen so you're not worried about falling behind? You can choose to take a delayed high-tier reward. Need to spend lots of cash to clear some conditions? You can choose the high-tier reward, spend its gold on condition removal, then hold the rest of the chronicle until you qualify. Did your high-level buddies steamroll the scenario so that you don't have any extra expenses/consumables to cover? You can choose to take level-appropriate wealth right now. Kind of an iffy situation? You get to use your best judgment.
It is pretty elegant.
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On the topic of holding the chronicle, I'm NOT a fan. I absolutely HATE the idea of having to wait to apply the credit for my adventures, which is a major reason why I avoid playing higher level pregens like the plague.
SCPRedMage, I understand your concerns. However, without an alternate solution, the rules are changing to be that playing up is "all risk, no reward." Delayed credit allows choosing a separate option, which is "all risk, delayed reward." Players still get their extra gold, boons, and item access without going beyond expected WBL.
The other proposed solutions in this thread make organizing an event much more difficult, as now the organizer has to micromanage tables and turn away many walk-ins. Delayed credit is the best solution proposed so far IMO, though I am of course open to other ideas.
While the double experience idea is also acceptable to me, I would much prefer the simplicity of using the system that is already in place and used by GMs and people playing pregens.
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I think this idea has the best chance of being accepted because it includes the idea that was put forth in the podcast. It just adds a choice using rules already in place therefore would be simple to implement, no rewriting of chronicle sheets, no alienating players, no turning people away because of level restrictions. It seems like the very best compromise we can possibly get.
Edit: i am referring of course to the delayed credit option
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This is even more complicated than any other solution I've seen.
There's a lot going on in this thread, dude--which "this" are you talking about?
Wow, the Delayed Uptier Credit model is getting support from multiple other camps. That's impressive.
We're building consensus! I never thought I'd see the day.
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I think this idea has the best chance of being accepted because it includes the idea that was put forth in the podcast. It just adds a choice using rules already in place therefore would be simple to implement, no rewriting of chronicle sheets, no alienating players, no turning people away because of level restrictions. It seems like the very best compromise we can possibly get.
Edit: i am referring of course to the delayed credit option
The main trouble I see with it is that the people who are hurt the most are the ones who we least want to--totally new players who are forced to take the losses dealt by the podcast system in order to advance, as waiting and staying permanently at level 1 with lower and lower gear (as consumables disappear and aren't replaced with new money between sessions) isn't an option.
Heck, that's another big issue with it--unlike both of the other times you can delay credit, in this case you're playing your own character with your own consumables, and the problem isn't just that you might need them and lose them, it's that you might need them again next mission and be wholly unable to replace them.
Can we come up with a way to mod this idea that fixes that? I'm open to ideas--one might be to replace the non-hold option with getting double XP, all the gold for the high tier, and absolutely no increase in prestige. Essentially a combination of the two most popular ideas, but with the kicker that prestige is intentionally left at a horrible rate in the double XP case. So since it is crippling your prestige to do it, powergamers wouldn't take that option--you would only take this option if you legitimately were trying to catch up with your buddies.