Poison (Ex) Bite—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/minute for 60 minutes; effect sleep for 1 minute; cure 1 save.
If I'm understanding the effect of homunculus poison correctly, a failed save on a bite results in 1 minute of sleep, yes?
Does one then continue to attempt saves every minute for the remainder of the hour, falling asleep for another minute on each subsequent failure before the cure of 1 save?
Barring the poison being neutralized, running its course or being saved against, is there any way to awaken from this sleep?
I believe you are correct. A failed save means the creature falls asleep for an hour, but gets an additional save every minute to wake up (which is what you said).
I think it would be safe to treat it as the sleep spell, where attacking the creature would wake it up.
I think it would be safe to treat it as the sleep spell, where attacking the creature would wake it up.
That was my thought, too, though it doesn't specifically say, "as the sleep spell."
Also, if the poison is still active and the affected creature is woken in the manner described above, a subsequent bite would have it's DC increased by 2 and, failing that, the duration of the poison would increase another 30 minutes, yes?
It would be a DM call if you could wake them up or not as it is not specifically compared to Sleep as you mentioned.
You are also correct that the poison is still in effect until a successful save is made.
Also, yes, subsequent bites would add +2 to the DC and extend the duration by 50%.
Great tactic! Have the homunculus bite and hopefully drop the foe (this is only effective at low levels due to low DC). Then have him bite the sleeping foe every round to make the DC harder and harder. It might work.
The problem is that the DC is constitution based and the homunculus has no con score so having him wear a belt of constitution or a Bear's Endurance would not help to increase the DC.
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Sleep isn't the same as Unconscious. Drow Poison causes Unconsciousness. Kicking and screaming at an Unconscious target won't wake it. Homunculus poison causes Sleep so, whether it works like the spell or like natural sleep, any injury sufficient to cause a point of damage is going to wake them. If Homunculus poison caused Unconsciousness, it would say so.
That said, biting the sleeping target could go two ways.
1. Once the target it bitten a second time, he wakes. Once he wakes, the poison no longer affects him so the poison save shouldn't increase. It's out of his system.
2. The target is bitten. He wakes up but, since he technically never made his actual save to wake up, the poison is still in his system. Adjust new poison save normally.
Number 1 seems more fair and way less cheesy to me. The antidote for homunculus poison is simply waking the target so that should be enough to get it out of their system.
A sure way to increase the homunculus' venom (aside from Ability Focus) is to increase its HD if you can afford it. The DC increases by +1 for every two HD of the creature. The spell Pernicious Poison will also increase your odds of affecting the target. If the little guy is your familiar, a good tactic would be to have him cast Pernicious Poison using his Deliver Touch Spells ability and then bite the next round.
Homunculus poison causes Sleep so, whether it works like the spell or like natural sleep, any injury sufficient to cause a point of damage is going to wake them
Yes. I agree that an injury would wake the sleeper; even a non-damaging slap (which works for sleep) should be sufficient. But what about loud noise?
That said, biting the sleeping target could go two ways.
1. Once the target it bitten a second time, he wakes. Once he wakes, the poison no longer affects him so the poison save shouldn't increase. It's out of his system.
2. The target is bitten. He wakes up but, since he technically never made his actual save to wake up, the poison is still in his system. Adjust new poison save normally.
Number 1 seems more fair and way less cheesy to me. The antidote for homunculus poison is simply waking the target so that should be enough to get it out of their system.
RAW would seem to imply #2, as the cure is 1 save, not waking. No save, no cure. No cure, still poisoned.
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RAW would seem to imply #2, as the cure is 1 save, not waking. No save, no cure. No cure, still poisoned.
I agree with you but, the way I see it, Sleep is the effect of the poison. Once the target is awake, the poison's effect has worn off so no more poison. It isn't as if the bitten person is likely to nod off again after you've woken them, having to make another save a round after you wake them because the poison is still in their blood. That's like double jeopardy, man, and I'm ruling against it in my own games.
Loud noises should probably wake the target. The DC to hear something goes up by +10 when you're asleep, and I figure a noise loud enough that you normally need to roll a 0 to hear it won't work (it's "normal noise.") A battle (DC-10) might wake them, but I'd still require a roll. A thunderstone or a Sound Burst spell going off near the target should definitely wake them.
Yes. I agree that an injury would wake the sleeper; even a non-damaging slap (which works for sleep) should be sufficient. But what about loud noise?
I'm of the opinion that since a Homunculus is a magical construct that the sleep poison would act like the spell sleep (mainly due to simplicity), so loud noises would not wake them.
It is not stated though, so it's completely left to GM discretion.
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From Sleep:
"Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not."
To me, Normal Noise means things like regular, inside-voice speaking, many birds chirping, the sound of heavy footsteps, basically things that make noise, but not enough noise that you need to raise your voice to talk over it. Even the sound of a blacksmith working at a forge or dogs barking probably won't wake the sleeper, but something like the roar of a dragon or the sound of a sudden buzz from a swarm of cicadas (those suckers are loud) has a good shot.
Similarly, I'd say anything that provides enough of a system shock to the body would wake the sleeper. It isn't mentioned, but tossing a sleeping person into a river, dumping a bucket of water on their face or even plugging up their nostrils and mouth with your hands should kick the brain into waking the person.
but normal noise does not.
Fair enough, I forgot the "normal noise" wording. I thought I remembered it being noise in general. That's what I get for not looking it up before posting.
I agree then, any startling noises would be sufficient to awaken the sleeping character.
As someone who has had to be given a huge dose of Demerol in the ER, I can definitely assure you that being woken up by any means did not prevent the drug from putting me right back to sleep when I was done answering questions...and sometimes before. And that was a legal drug, administered as a medical procedure, with all the safety precautions and testing involved in such. Curing the "symptom" (in this case "falling asleep") shouldn't cure the root cause.
But that's just my opinion.
Definitely #2: still poisoned on waking. The effect is "Sleep 1 minute", not "Sleep 60 minutes, with an extra save every minute". So yes, they will fall back asleep, as if they were extremely drowsy due to, say, a drug/poison in their system.
However, the idea of biting just to up the DC isn't necessarily a good idea... a couple weeks ago my Homunculus familiar dropped a wizard with his poison, then coup de grace'd the next round (for all of 3 damage)... and woke him up. He wasn't happy.
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As someone who has had to be given a huge dose of Demerol in the ER, I can definitely assure you that being woken up by any means did not prevent the drug from putting me right back to sleep when I was done answering questions...and sometimes before. And that was a legal drug, administered as a medical procedure, with all the safety precautions and testing involved in such. Curing the "symptom" (in this case "falling asleep") shouldn't cure the root cause.
But that's just my opinion.
I'm concur, even if you're woken up after you've fallen asleep you are still poisoned and must continue to make saves each minute. If the homonculus bites you again while you are asleep you'll wake up but the poison DC increases by 2 and and the frequency extends by 50% or another 30 minutes.
If you were taking Con damage from poison, getting a lesser restoration potion wouldn't stop you from being poisoned. Only saving throws or effects which end poisoning (which really should be a condition) will help.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
Just to be sure, I believe the target waking up gets a save to avoid being afflicted by the 2nd dose (which doesn't count as a cure). Interestingly, that means someone afflicted with homunculus poison who is woken up, cannot be put back to sleep by it until the 1 minute passes (no matter the DC).
Just to be sure, I believe the target waking up gets a save to avoid being afflicted by the 2nd dose (which doesn't count as a cure). Interestingly, that means someone afflicted with homunculus poison who is woken up, cannot be put back to sleep by it until the 1 minute passes (no matter the DC).
Eh, I wouldn't agree there (but personal interpretation ahoy here). It doesn't have an onset, so if you fail the second save, the poison puts you back out. It keeps a decent tradeoff of being able to make saves (albeit at a higher DC than initially) than the standard 1/minute). I'd restart the timer based on the new dose, too, just for simplicity's sake.
But, like I said, personal interpretation. Not saying you're wrong, just that I don't agree.