So i'm running a new campaign. We have a Half-orc druid, dwarf inquisitor, gnome bard, human witch, elf rogue, and a custom-raced ninja. We also have a dhampir barbarian but i'm unsure as to how often she'll actually play with us. So my question is this. Will this party be ok without a "tank", or could the inquisitor/druid be able to suffice?
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This isn't WoW. You don't need a "Tank". Just don't tackle your encounters like you do have muscle and you'll be fine.
yeah, i hear a lot of "druids are the biggest tank ever" bits here.
Attack and control are more important than defense. Having an unhittable mountain of hitpoints is useless if the others can still be hit. Better use battlefield control that protects all your pals, and then kill the opposition.
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Inquisitors make good front line melee with AC's built right. They can be hard to hit and when using bane that output damage well.
The biggest issue a party faces in this situation isnot having someone who can handle being hit for large damage. I'm playing a melee class in our home game right now and in two games the damage output from enemies in a single round of attacks would have dropped or flat out killed other party members. That was despite my rather high AC as well.
So, it is doable, but the group needs to be very careful when big damage dealers come their way. This is when summoning is at its most useful to slow down those big hitters so the rest of the group can range it to death.
If your party have never played without a damage soaker before, it would be well worth the time to discuss this fact with them so they can at least be mentally prepared for it.
Cheers
Get some barding/armor for the druids animal companion and you have a damn good tank. Add that to the battlefield control of the druid and witch and you are just fine.
What 'tank' means in pathfinder, is that you need someone that keeps the enemy from being able to readily kill the squishier members of the party AND deal damage back to them. You have that in a mix from several party members. You should be fine. Also remind the druid and witch about summoning things and let the bard buff them :P
There isn't really tanking in Pathfinder because there a very few ways to force a creature to attack a specific character. High AC and hp without high damage output usually means monsters ignore you and will kill you last as they walk by you to the squishy caster. How do you avoid that? Have high but not unhitable AC, use reach and trip weapons to keep the enemy in one spot and from getting to the squishy. Other combat maneuver work well too, whether it is sunder, disarm, grapple or bull rush etc. If the enemy's weapon is on the ground, if they get pushed out of the way, if they're wrestling with someone else they can easily threaten anyone else until they deal with you. Any character able to interpose themselves between a monster and a low AC low hp character is now also tanking. As long as you have enough AC and hp to make it through the fight the druid and some wands will cure what ails you.
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I have been in a group now for five plus years playing in various systems that never fill every role in a party. We always just adjust tactics accordingly. If you have a chance set up ambushes with your skill set and use that to your advantage. Have the rogue and ninja set up a flank and the casters control the rest as the big guy gets a bunch of sneak attack. After round one be mobile. No one says you need to stay still; move and ready your standard action to go off when they come in range so you get your swing.
Matt
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Tanking works very well in narrow corridors. Not so well elsewhere.
Druids have access to animal companions. Have him pick a bear or something if you're that concerned and just watch as it trivializes most combat.
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Four of these PCs can heal but nowhere as effectively as a cleric. I would be more worried about that than the lack of a tank.
If the players each memorize a cure mod, a costly resource for these class lists, when someone gets hit hard, like a crit, there should be someone that can reach the wounded alley and heal to make things less dangerous for that fellow. Problem is, those casters might be better off finishing the fight, especially considering what they could have gotten for that level of spell.
If you can, I think each of those healing able casters should try to grab a wand of CMW and later CSW. I know they are extremely expensive, especially for several of those PCs to each get one, that is why I repeat, if you can, get some with only a few charges left so they are not so super expensive each. Convince the group they should all collectively put in money for them so slightly ease the cost. Think carefully who should carry them or it when you can only afford one. I would recommend it pass from player to player by who has the least spells or weakest attacks. Be warned that if the same player has to spend their actions almost always healing(spells per day or wands, whatever), they will likly get a little resentful. Try to spread that chore out.
There are abilities in Pathfinder that will cause penalties for not attacking a specific character, or abilities that force you to attack a specific character (magically compelled to attack no one else) but they are few and far between. They also can't be used all day every day for the most part. Also, I don't really want that mechanic to exist. I like that casters are squishy and you have to work tactically to protect them while they buff/blast/heal/summon. If all I have to do is say: I mark that one, and if that one doesn't attack me takes a penalty it just sucks, especially for intelligent monsters. Intelligent enemies are aware that casters can be a lot worse than the guy in full plate with the big sword. His schtick is damage, the caster can change the universe. As far as representing focus on one particular enemy, attacks of oppurtunity as he walks past, flanking, full attacks against an enemy attacking someone else are great enough already that you don't need a constant fight me or suck mechanic.
Don't worry about it. I'm in a party that consists of a 8 con reach weapon fighter/druid, a battle oracle/barbarian/rage prophet with a 12 con, a archer buffer cleric with 10 con, and a fighter/ranger/paladin with 12 con. Our HP isn't that high, and neither is our AC for the most part.
We use our strengths and our smarts to make up for our weaknesses. We fight in fog cloud to give ourselves concealment, and abuse reach weapons, large size, and readied actions to give our damage dealers a number of AoO's before the enemy can even touch us. With a bit of luck from dice rolls, we survived fighting a huge-sized Fiendish T-Rex (CR 11 or 12) at level 6 with just the four of us with out taking a single hit.
Be creative with how you approach encounters. There's more than just one way to beat most encounters. Stat's aren't all that determines which way an encounter goes.
The Inquisitor and Druid are both tanks unless built specifically for other purposes, like casting-focused w/ low str or dex. Barbarian is definitely a tank. Druid and Witch can summon tanks as well.
Your party is actually pretty well balanced. My biggest concern is the rogue having a niche in a party w/ Bard, Inquisitor, and (mostly for the perception stuff) Druid in the party.
There isn't really tanking in Pathfinder because there a very few ways to force a creature to attack a specific character. High AC and hp without high damage output usually means monsters ignore you and will kill you last as they walk by you to the squishy caster. How do you avoid that? Have high but not unhitable AC, use reach and trip weapons to keep the enemy in one spot and from getting to the squishy.
Also this. PF is a very poor system for "tanking." You basically want to do so much damage the foes have to take heed of you, and to have good defenses but not *great* defenses, so you can survive their attacks, but you aren't so difficult to harm that they get frustrated and go for other people. It's a balancing act, really...
Tanking works very well in narrow corridors. Not so well elsewhere.
Works better when you have a buddy with Precise Shot standing behind you.
You need Improved Precise Shot to negate the soft cover an ally in the way gives to your enemy. Precise Shot only negates the penalty for firing into melee.
If your GM is handling things right, these tank/defense tactics won't work the same types of enemies.
-Animals and unintelligent creatures will go for whatever looks like the biggest threat/whatever is closest to it, probably.
-Intelligent creatures are going to go for the vulnerable PCs that make the big guys bigger. It doesn't matter how impressive the barbarian is, if the thing knows there's a squishy bard behind him powering everyone up, he's going to go for the bard and then worry about the armored guys.
It's useful to have a character with high HP but the rest of the group makeup is what's most important.
You need Improved Precise Shot to negate the soft cover an ally in the way gives to your enemy. Precise Shot only negates the penalty for firing into melee.
But that soft cover only kicks in if your buddy is directly in the way of the target, correct? Sounds overly complicated for Pathfinder.
If your GM is handling things right, these tank/defense tactics won't work the same types of enemies.
-Animals and unintelligent creatures will go for whatever looks like the biggest threat/whatever is closest to it, probably.
-Intelligent creatures are going to go for the vulnerable PCs that make the big guys bigger. It doesn't matter how impressive the barbarian is, if the thing knows there's a squishy bard behind him powering everyone up, he's going to go for the bard and then worry about the armored guys.It's useful to have a character with high HP but the rest of the group makeup is what's most important.
This might seem peculiar, but over the years, I've noticed that Barbarians have a tendency to NEED those huge hit dice. It's as if they get pounded on so much that every last hp is needed. Yet, Paladins and Fighters don't seem to take that much abuse. I dunno why. Only guess I have is that those few points of AC really make a difference.
This might seem peculiar, but over the years, I've noticed that Barbarians have a tendency to NEED those huge hit dice. It's as if they get pounded on so much that every last hp is needed. Yet, Paladins and Fighters don't seem to take that much abuse. I dunno why. Only guess I have is that those few points of AC really make a difference.
A few points of AC can make a huge difference. Much better to avoid damage than to soak it in my opinion. I don't think barbarians make very good tanks for that reason. Paladins will have more AC and higher saves which make them very good for that type.
I find that paladin's make good tanks b/c they can deal out a lot of damage and heal themselves every rounds as a swift action. The damage makes them an obvious threat/target and the healing keeps them on their feet.
The only thing needed in Pathfinder to be a good "tank" is the AC to not get hit and/or the HP to not fall down, along with the willingness to jump in the middle of the bad guys and do enough damage to make yourself a target worth hitting (which usually means having lower AC to get that extra damage {ie two handed weapon, no shield}). Almost any class can do that, if built correctly (of course a wizard would be doing that by summoning stuff, but it accomplishes the same thing).
As many have said, Pathfinder does not equal WoW.
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I ran into the opposite of this with my first character in pathfinder. He is a Tower shield specialist fighter 4, rogue 2. With his shield he has a 27 armor class. Basically for a normal bad guy to hit him ends up being crits and never just hits, we are using max HP for everything so can handle a few of those, generally though ive been unconscious and bleeding out more then a handful of times (neg con) There is a cool feat that lets you grant +2ac to someone standing next to you (shield other iirc)as long as your using something bigger then a buckler. Tower shield can be set to make a side grant total cover, yad yad yadda.
The only reason for a mob to attack me and not say the sorc standing 30' behind me or the archer 50' away is just that I am closer. but generally they hit me a few times as they are moving past, or spread out and go out of my reach (as i use a scimitar) to reach the squishes behind me.
There is no "taunt" ability the closest ive found is intimidate, which having an average cha and no points in it is pointless to even attempt.
I have ok offense, but feat wise am geared for defense.
TLTR: as a guy that attempted to build a tank and is going to be a stalwart defender. There is no real tanking, its just a fun concept
A few points of AC can make a huge difference. Much better to avoid damage than to soak it in my opinion. I don't think barbarians make very good tanks for that reason. Paladins will have more AC and higher saves which make them very good for that type.
This might seem peculiar, but over the years, I've noticed that Barbarians have a tendency to NEED those huge hit dice. It's as if they get pounded on so much that every last hp is needed. Yet, Paladins and Fighters don't seem to take that much abuse. I dunno why. Only guess I have is that those few points of AC really make a difference.
But, it's all of THREE FREAKIN POINTS! That's 15% better. Big whoop. Yet Barbs get nailed hard. Then again, when they rage, their ac drops by 2, and they start charging around because it only lasts for so long, so maybe that's why....
Well, if their AC is 5 points less on average because of rage, they are going to need a huge Constitution and perhaps the Toughness feat. This is why I always thought that what a Barbarian needs more than anything else is a high Strength and Constitution. You want to have rage for as long as possible, and to be certain to take Dodge to partially negate that problem with AC you have when raging.
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Don't forget that rage increases Constitution, resulting in a larger hit point pool in most combat situations.
As for the subject at hand, my experience of playing a frontliner type of character in PF and 3.5 sounds very similar to what has already been said in this thread over and over again: one should be both a juicy target, e.g good AC but not so good as to unhittable, and a veritable cornucopia of endurance. So far, after playing around 7 or 8 different melee characters, these things have held true. Of those characters, the 16th lvl alchemist was by far the safest mechanically, since the various defenses brought on by spellcasting(Greater False Life, Barkskin, Resinous Skin, Ablative Barrier, spontanoues healing, etc) further bolstered my stats and mundane defenses.
It also helped being a Large gorilla with wings. He got everyone's attention, which helped loads, since the rest of the group avoided melee.
Tank as in "I have tons of armor and HP and all the enemies him me and leave my friends alone"?
No such thing, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a MMO mechanic with no real value in a table top RPG. It's almost always unrealistic ("yeah, so what if that guy taunted me, I'm going to kill his healer and his wizard then I can finish him off with ease"). If you make it a magical compulsion then I fully expect the bad guys to have that magic too, and most players hate, hate, HATE it when they're constantly compelled to take wrongbadfun actions in RPG battles.
Or do you mean tank as in "I'm a front line fighter who can absorb damage when my enemies attack me and I can dish it out to my enemies too"?
This is a decent character to play, but entirely unnecessary because all the enemies can simply run around him, teleport behind him, fly over him, or just ignore him and target whoever they want. I usually run unintelligent monsters so that they attack whoever hurts them the most and/or whoever is closest within their reach and field of view. Often it's this guy, so his armor and HP are useful sometimes. But intelligent monsters, especially those with any kind of experience with healers and mages, almost always ignore this guy unless the terrain makes it impossible to ignore him (e.g. a narrow dungeon corridor).
In short, the first kind of tank doesn't exist so you can't have it and the second kind of tank is only marginally useful in some situations and is less and less useful as levels get higher.
Your group of 6-7 characters should be just fine.
bbt, what jargon is that? Is it competitive Pokémon jargon?
Pokémon is the only game that uses the specific terms "physical" and "special", so that was my main hint.
When others use WoW lingo, and tactics, I show them what it is like on the other side.
Haha, sorta like this?
Anyway, back to the topic, I basically agree with what most everyone else is saying. A dedicated tank is not needed. People who can fight in melee are useful, but instead of "tanking" their goal is typically to deal damage without immediately dying.
That said, it is still good if someone is tanky, provided that also do other things. Paladins, for example, get to deal good damage, all whilst having an extra few hundred hp in the form of Lay on Hands.
Well, if their AC is 5 points less on average because of rage, they are going to need a huge Constitution and perhaps the Toughness feat. This is why I always thought that what a Barbarian needs more than anything else is a high Strength and Constitution. You want to have rage for as long as possible, and to be certain to take Dodge to partially negate that problem with AC you have when raging.Dodge is...not the first thing that comes to mind for negating the AC issue.
Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem), or Extra Rage Power (Guarded Stance) are generally my preferred options given the better scaling than dodge, other options like Enforcer or Cornugun smash allow for quick intimidation that not only lowers a target's to hit against you, but also makes them vulnerable to an ally's save or X spell.
Dodge grants a +1 AC, and is the gateway to Mobility, the latter helps with flanking. See? Getting bonuses to hit is a LOT harder than getting bennies to damage.
Rage Powers run out, and recall that the Barb is already down 3 AC already just for his armor profs.
Our group has no special sweeper, and no physical wall.
We do have decent special wall.
A wall that drools and mutters, staring vacantly, *that* kind of wall?
:D
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Tank as in "I have tons of armor and HP and all the enemies him me and leave my friends alone"?
No such thing, and as far as I'm concerned, that's a MMO mechanic with no real value in a table top RPG. It's almost always unrealistic ("yeah, so what if that guy taunted me, I'm going to kill his healer and his wizard then I can finish him off with ease"). If you make it a magical compulsion then I fully expect the bad guys to have that magic too, and most players hate, hate, HATE it when they're constantly compelled to take wrongbadfun actions in RPG battles.
Or do you mean tank as in "I'm a front line fighter who can absorb damage when my enemies attack me and I can dish it out to my enemies too"?
This is a decent character to play, but entirely unnecessary because all the enemies can simply run around him, teleport behind him, fly over him, or just ignore him and target whoever they want. I usually run unintelligent monsters so that they attack whoever hurts them the most and/or whoever is closest within their reach and field of view. Often it's this guy, so his armor and HP are useful sometimes. But intelligent monsters, especially those with any kind of experience with healers and mages, almost always ignore this guy unless the terrain makes it impossible to ignore him (e.g. a narrow dungeon corridor).
In short, the first kind of tank doesn't exist so you can't have it and the second kind of tank is only marginally useful in some situations and is less and less useful as levels get higher.
Your group of 6-7 characters should be just fine.
The "WoW Tank" does exsist. I made 1, played it, loved it, worked wonders for the group when it came to having them survive the antics of a "Killer DM" we play with. The following is the build i used from 1-19.
-Race-
Human
-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Ranger (Weapon and Shield) 2/ Rogue 2
-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13
ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29
to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21
-Traits-
Threatening Defender
-Feat / Level Progression-
Ra01) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Ra02) Shield Focus
M 03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M 04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F 05) Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, Missile Shield
F 06) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
F 07) Crane Wing
F 08) Saving Shield
F 09) Bodyguard
F 10) Crane Riposte
F 11) Draconic Defender
F 12) Greater Shield Focus
F 13) Disruptive
F 14) Spellbreaker
F 15) Pin Down
F 16) Ray Shield
F 17) Mobility
F 18) Spring Attack
Ro19) Whirlwind Attack
Ro20) Talent - Combat Trick (Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike)
-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Mithril Heavy Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)
-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind u since any thing that enters ur threaten area will not be able to exit ur threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards u via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.
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To Op,
Ur concerns of needing a tank is mute. For the most part as long as ur not with a "Killer DM" type u should be fine. In games like DnD as long as u have good team work and a decent understanding of tactics and ability to use the terrain around around u, u can easily deal with any situation. It all just comes down to how smart u and ur allies are and how well u can adapt to new situations.
You bothered to throw 2 feats into the garbage on Disruptive and Spellbreaker, but didn't bother with the only reason on earth to ever take them, Teleport Tactician?
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You bothered to throw 2 feats into the garbage on Disruptive and Spellbreaker, but didn't bother with the only reason on earth to ever take them, Teleport Tactician?
Have u ever played at high levels? Both feats do very well when u close the distance or get the jump on a target. I will admit i should have gotten Teleport Tactician but for the most part things i fought never teleported away and things that can teleport were usually taken care of by my party's ray sorcerer and archer fighter.
I have played at higher levels. Especially at higher levels, the +4 DC won't matter and spellbreaker won't matter in turn b/c they'll never fail the checks.
Teleport Tactician also protects from those entering the area.
It's not as great as I'd like, but it's one of the only non-caster defenses against teleporting foes there is. If not the only.