Ardenup’s Guide to fighters: “PREPARE FOR GLORY!”
A note about 3.5: First off should be my note about 3.5, I play in games where 3.5 is allowed and I feel while PF has some great options for fighters, that they do struggle to keep up at high levels with casters. I will include BOTH PF and 3.5 options for those who haven’t chucked their old books.
OTHER CLASSES: I make mention here while this guide will demonstrate the awesomeness a fighter possesses, other melee classes will find this useful. Most classes generally have enough fets to develop a combat style.
The Party Roles, Multiclassing and YOU:
Most standard parties will comprise of an arcane caster, a divine caster, a trapmonkey and a melee specialist. Fighters make up the last category. While some people disdain melee, (particularly narcissistic casters with god complexes) none realize more than you that all the magic in the world won’t save the day if it can’t be cast. Give the holier than thou mages a nice safe space to work in, secure in the knowledge that if it wasn’t for you constantly protecting his front/rear/flanks, he’d have died long ago. Fighters get lots of feats like they always did, however the revision to the skill system means multiclassing is a strong option for fighters now. A fighter10/rogue 10 or fighter10/barbarian10 a far more versatile, just as tough (or tougher) and can easily match or outclass a straight 20 lvl build if done right. As such I’ll be offering Multiclass advice.
The Melee Combat Roles:
The Tank: (Just Try to Hit Me):
This is achieved 3 ways, High AC, DR or Miss chance. Straight fighters are able to (thanks to armor training and a decent dex) have the highest AC’s in the game. Magical Mithral Fullplate and a tower shield with enhancements mean you mooks almost never hit you and while the BBEG can he’ll need to roll well to do it. DR- This is a better option for Fighter8/Barb12. Taking DR rage powers with heavy adamantine and (3.5) armour specialization means you’ll still have high AC, great barb speed (fighters get full speed in heavy armour at 7) and absorb a great deal of damage. Miss chance is A LOT harder to achieve, mostly through magic items or a rogue/shadowdancer build but SO worthwhile. Wands of Mirror Image, Displacement etc are great but should be looked at as an expence. Taking Shadowdancer lets you hide in plain sight (and you stealth skill doesn’t have to suck)
The Big Hitter: (Hulk Smash):
This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. Big Hitters don’t need to full attack and instead will focus on getting a massive whack with a standard action. The Vital Strike chain is good for this. Also things like Power Attack, Cleave and Great cleave let you use that roll on multiple opponents. Big Hitter’s always go two-handed and tend to use weapons with multiple dice and bigger crit ranges (Greatswords, Falchions, Elven Curve Blades)
The Lockdown Specialist: (You’re not going anywhere):
Fighters who want to dictate their enemies movetments and status pursue this path. It involves pinning down enemies so they cannot attack your allies. There are a few ways to do this- Feats like improved, greater trip or bulrush with reach weapons (for a bigger threat area) are the most obvious but TWF with Improved Shieldbash, shieldslam can add free bulrushes to full attacks (there a 3.5 variants as well I’ll touch on later)
The Full attacker: (I’ll bathe in your blood):
These guys generally focus on inflicting as much damage per round as possible. They are usually (but not exclusively) Two Weapon Fighters. This type of Char figures the best defence is a damn good offence- the sooner the bad guy dies, the safer your allies (re: the squishy jesus wannabe) are. They tend to pick feats that improve accuracy and increase damage. Doubleslice and Two Weapon Rend Spring to mind. Fighter20, Fighter/Rogues and Paladin’s excel at this. Archer’s also fall into this category as they tend to only move to get a line of sight then full attack with bows.
*You may note I do not mention archery. This is because while being an archer is certainly viable- there is fairly little variance from one build to another. Most feat choices are fairly obvious so I won't repeat it here.*
What roles to fill?
Here we touch on the VERY best feature of a fighter. You don’t have to pick just one of these. Fighters get so many feats so often not only can you pick multiple feat trees to let you fill these roles, go can get those trees completed far sooner than other melee classes. Some roles synergize well with others eg Lockdown plus Full attacker is a powerful combination. In my experience a straight fighter can usually master 2 styles and be good at a 3rd. A 50/50 multiclass can usually master 2.
What STATS does a fighter have anyways?
Your ability scores say a lot about the type of fighter you are. Unlike casting classes your priority score is not preset (as a wiz will always prioritize INT) Pick your combat role you want before rolling (or buying) ability scores and assign as appropriate. NOTE: because fighters can move in fullplate with no speed reduction (at level 7) and armor training increase the max dex bonus for armor, Dexterity should be a priority score- it improves AC, allows TWF (if that’s your bag), improves your CMD and improves your archery.
Any way you slice it - here's the simple rules I follow when making my Fighter. Highest stats goes to Dex and STR. Int is a priority only if you want skills (and I recommend it, nothing says you need to be stupid) Followed by CON or WIS. CHA is your dump stat (as skill points will eventually overtake and CHA based skill bonuses)
Obviously these aren't set in stone. If you want to have a decent will (maybe your worried about mind effecting spells), but remember there are feats that help will saves and you’ve got feats aplenty.
What Race is a fighter?
In Pathfinder, you've got great choices for Fighters, and more than that, your choices are flexible. However, that said, your best, best choice for straight fighter is human. For a multiclass it’s Half-Elf
Human: With a flexible stat bonus you can get that all important +2 STR or DEX score. The lack of racial features matters less than an extra feat (you can complete a chain a 1st level. The extra skill point is great (almost as good as a +2 Int-since you’re not using it for a Casting DC). The lack of darkvision hurts though
Half-Elf: Lacks for a straight build but for multiclass fighters are great. You get the full favored class benefit- I usually go for Skill points. A +2 to your best score, low light vision, elven immunities and a skill focus to your favorite skill.
Half Orc: Flexable +2 stat and darkvision make this a solid choice. Orc Ferocity is also good but may not come into play a lot unless you are a barbarian. Neck and Neck with the half-elf. Use this if you wanna be a barbarian or really want darkvision.
Elf: Good but make better wizards, the Int is nice but not required. Racial weapon proficiencies are negated by fighter class (with the exception of elven curve blade but humans have a feat for that), Dex also helps but a -2 to Con is the final straw for me.
Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes: Not great choices, though any of them can still make a good fighter. Dwarves are better for lockdown and Halflings for ranged. The main reason I don’t like them is the crap speed. Mobility is king for fighters (especially since your movt in heavy armor doesn’t suffer long)
What Feats does a fighter take?
More than any other class, you feats dictate how your fighter is going to play. There has been a lot of conjecture about lack of class abilities for fighters- feats are it and trust me, if you do it right they are all you need.
Combat Feats:
The Bread and butter of a fighter build. Unlike other classes, feats for fighters must be looked at as chains. Building on other feats and finding synergies are the key to a fighters power. Be aware I will mention 3.5 feats here as well as some are just brilliant and can close the gap between melee’rs and casters.
Feats for Lockdown:
Standstill- strictly speaking- Tripping is better, but standstill works at higher levels.
Lunge- lets you increase your reach for a an attack, quite good if your struggling to pin the enemy.
Improved Trip/Gtr- Great at low levels, past 10 you start to struggle because you can’t trip really big things of enemies that fly. Get an item or your ‘God’ buddy to cast enlarge person and form of the giant to make it work at later levels. Weapon Training makes fighters the king of tripping.
Improved Gtr Bullrush- Faces similar problems as tripping, but is solved as easily and lets you move bad guys around (re: away from squishy friends)
Combat Brute – a wonderful 3.5 feat (CW)with multiple applications. Directed Bullrush really improves pushing people around
Three Mountains- One of the best lockdown feats there is. 3.5 weapon stye feats are wonderful because they can either throw a status effect or free combat maneuver as part of an attack. Use a full attack (which lockdown specialists do) and you can nauseate a foe for a round (fort save that scales), if they try to move away- stand still or trip em
Feats for Chargers or standard action strikers-
Vital strike/Imp/Gtr- If you are fighting 2 handed and expect to move a lot then these are pretty darn good. Pick a weapon with high or better yet MULTIPLE dice (say ‘Greatsword’), if allowed the Monkey Grip from 3.5 will let you use a Large version for even more dice. If playing core only this is strictly better than charging as you suffer no AC penalty and don’t have movt restrictions and it applies to ANY weapon
Power Attack- This is actually better than in 3.5 since the Attack vs Damage trade of is better (1:3 if 2 handing a weapon) This is better for fighters as weapon training 4 almost wipes away the penalty. A Paladin using it attacks at +15, a fighter attacks at +19.
Cleave/Gtr- This has also improved since you don’t need to kill a foe to use it. A damn good way to get multiple hits on a standard strike
Furious Charge- a great 1st level feat (FRCS) that makes charging grant a +4 to attack. At low levels that is massive but less so as you level.
Run- Crap on it’s own but a preq for Fleet of foot.
Fleet of Foot- lets you turn as part of a charge. Awesome.
Combat Brute – a wonderful 3.5 feat (CW)with multiple applications. Reckless charge lets you assign the -5 to your AC rather than attack. Really improves to hit chances, sadly this use isn’t available till about 15 now.
Feats for TWF
Obviously TWF and ITWF- only take GTWF if you are a straight fighter as weapon training means it might hit, for other melee classes it aint worth it.
Two Weapon Defence and the like are terrible. Don’t waste feats on it. You have high DEX so wear heavy armour (I LOVE armour training)
Improved Shield Bash- Lets you TWF with a Large shield and sets up:
Shield slam- free bulrush when TWF
Improved Buckler Defense now this is worthwhile. Wear a buckler and get it’s AC even if fighting with two weapons.
Cresent Moon, High Sword, Low Axe- Check if your DM will allow the weapon style feats in CW. Similar to the core feat- shieldslam, These let a TWF have a free combat maneuver check against the opponent if they hit twice.
Two Weapon Pounce – Fantastic Feat- make two attacks at the end of a charge.
Two Weapon Rend- A great damage boost on a full attack. Synergizes with the weapon style feats and two weapon pounce.
Other Feats you may want to consider:
Iron Will- now I’m not a fan as I tend to let the “God” take care of such things, but there is no downside to having a good will save. If allowed check the Combat Form Feats from PHB2 –the chain gives a +4 to will, Fast Healing 4 for 10rds, and +8 bonus to your CMD
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Nimble Moves: losing a 5' step in difficult terrain can be bad when you are caught by an area spell. Nimble Moves lets you take that important 5' step away before turning him into a kebab for his impudence.
Acrobatic Steps: For fighters- movt is KING. You can’t get to the enemy, you can’t kill them. Turn a hindrance into an advantage- difficult terrain will actually make it easier to catch em with this feat.
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Toughness: Fighters have good AC, but considering the time you spend in combat extra HP is nice. Also, the deal is best at first level, so either this or Improved Initiative (or both if you're human) are the best 1st level choices.
God got Skillz:
Fighters aren’t skill monkeys but you should consider
Perception: The most used skill in the game. You will never be great at this, but it's worth having nonetheless
Favoured Class: Fighter.
Depends on style, mostly. DR soakers and lockdown specialists will usually want the HP, but I recommend the skills- fighters only get a couple and this will make you more versatile out of combat.
Prestige Class Options:
Nothing in the Core book stands out head and shoulders above staying a straight fighter. Of note is the shadowdancer. A one level dip is a VERY good option for a multiclass fighter rogue.
A note on multiclassing:
Fighters are a very multiclass friendly option.
Two I’d strongly advise (if you like the flavor)
Fighter10/Rogue 10- You are a war scout. Heavy Armor, Trapfinding, Armor Training 2, Weapon Training 1, Rogue powers. Go the TWF route and along with Shatter Defences- It will allow you to treat enemies as FLAT FOOTED so sneak attack away (a lot better than Improved Feint)
Fighter8/Barbarian12- A good build for a Damage Soaker or Charger. Knockback, DR, Fast Movt (in Fullplate), Gtr Rage with Gtr Weapon Fcs a bludgeon weapon and Three Mountains. Means you can be a Damage soaking Lockdown master who bats enemies where he likes.
Anyway, sorry if this doesn’t do it for you. My first handbook you know.
Ardenup wrote: Standstill- strictly speaking- Tripping is better, but standstill works at higher levels. .. Since you are including 3.5 then the Standstill from the Expanded Psionics Handbooks is also an option. I like it better than the Pathfinder version because it can be used with reach weapons, and even though it's in a the EPH the feat has nothing to do with psionics.
There's a lot of debatable or just plain wrong stuff in here.
"Magical Mithral Fullplate and a tower shield with enhancements mean you mooks almost never hit you and while the BBEG can he’ll need to roll well to do it." This doesn't work too hot at mid to high levels, especially if you still want to be able to accomplish anything besides having a high AC.
"The Vital Strike chain is good for this." No, it isn't. It's feats invested in increasing your damage on a turn where you will do bad damage.
"These guys generally focus on inflicting as much damage per round as possible. They are usually (but not exclusively) Two Weapon Fighters." If your job is to do damage, then your job is to do as much damage as possible, so pretty much all melee characters are using full-round attacks whenever possible and they are not usually TWFers.
Fighter20 is significantly worse than paladins and rogues at TWFing, and is usually better off going with a falchion anyway.
"Standstill- strictly speaking- Tripping is better, but standstill works at higher levels. " No, it doesn't, because high-level foes have reach. In fact, it goes from bad at low levels to completely useless at high ones.
"Improved Gtr Bullrush- Faces similar problems as tripping, but is solved as easily and lets you move bad guys around (re: away from squishy friends) " Bullrushing is useless because the targets to move enemies more than 5' are ridiculously high. Burning a standard action to move an enemy 5' is weak in 4e, why in God's name are you wasting your turn with that nonsense in 3e?
"if allowed the Monkey Grip from 3.5 will let you use a Large version for even more dice." Monkey Grip is a godawful feat and should not be encouraged under any circumstances.
There's probably more, but that's a start.
A Man In Black wrote: There's a lot of debatable or just plain wrong stuff in here.
"Magical Mithral Fullplate and a tower shield with enhancements mean you mooks almost never hit you and while the BBEG can he’ll need to roll well to do it." This doesn't work too hot at mid to high levels, especially if you still want to be able to accomplish anything besides having a high AC.
"The Vital Strike chain is good for this." No, it isn't. It's feats invested in increasing your damage on a turn where you will do bad damage.
I'seen plenty of builds that focus on movt over full attacks. Vital strike helps quite a bit for this if you weld a multi dice weapon. Wasn't suggesting it be your main trick, but is worth looking at.
A Man In Black wrote: "These guys generally focus on inflicting as much damage per round as possible. They are usually (but not exclusively) Two Weapon Fighters." If your job is to do damage, then your job is to do as much damage as possible, so pretty much all melee characters are using full-round attacks whenever possible and they are not usually TWFers.
Again, speaking from my experience TWF's are able to do more damage on a full attack (This was not the case with 3.5 PA. But in PF, PA nets the same 1.5 bonus per sacrificed Attack point. If a fighter wielding 2 shortswords (or longswords, bastard swords etc if Oversize TWF was taken) he'd have 7 iteritives at +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (Assume GTWF, GWF, PA, +4 for weapon training) I know a 2h fighter would have 4 attack at +21/+16/+11/+6 (assume GWF, +4 weapon training, PA). Now on a hit they both do +4 for gtr weapon spec, PA damage (of course the TWF has this divided over a primary/offhand hit) but the twf'er gets Doubleslice (say 7 chances to add his full STR bonus vs THander's 4 chances at 1.5 STR bonus) and Double slice. The TWF comes out ahead, just. I probably shouldn't have said most Damage focused fighters went TWF, rather that TWF can do MORE damage on a full attack. This does cost 3 feats so 2h may be the way to go if you want those 3 feats for something else.
A Man In Black wrote: Fighter20 is significantly worse than paladins and rogues at TWFing, and is usually better off going with a falchion anyway. A paladin is circumstantial - though certainly worth it. Depending on CHA will not only do more damage, but may still have a higher to hit (18 cha will give +4, the same as weapon training). Rogues do alot more on a hit as well but need to flank or use shatter defences, but lack weapon training and only 3/4 attack means they miss more.
I could go on, but I'm doing this on a phone, so i won't. Some trees in isolation aren't great but gain value when layered with others. I can post some build examples if you like.
Ardenup wrote: I'seen plenty of builds that focus on movt over full attacks. Vital strike helps quite a bit for this if you weld a multi dice weapon. Wasn't suggesting it be your main trick, but is worth looking at. They are bad builds.
Quote: Again, speaking from my experience TWF's are able to do more damage on a full attack (This was not the case with 3.5 PA. But in PF, PA nets the same 1.5 bonus per sacrificed Attack point. If a fighter wielding 2 shortswords (or longswords, bastard swords etc if Oversize TWF was taken) he'd have 7 iteritives at +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (Assume GTWF, GWF, PA, +4 for weapon training) I know a 2h fighter would have 4 attack at +21/+16/+11/+6 (assume GWF, +4 weapon training, PA). Now on a hit they both do +4 for gtr weapon spec, PA damage (of course the TWF has this divided over a primary/offhand hit) but the twf'er gets Doubleslice (say 7 chances to add his full STR bonus vs THander's 4 chances at 1.5 STR bonus) and Double slice. The TWF comes out ahead, just. I probably shouldn't have said most Damage focused fighters went TWF, rather that TWF can do MORE damage on a full attack. This does cost 3 feats so 2h may be the way to go if you want those 3 feats for something else. Anecdotal evidence and numbers pulled out of your butt don't really establish anything. Show me this TWF fighter that is outdamaging a 2h fighter from 1-20 and we'll talk.
You can't do it with a base fighter. The key to get a two-weapon fighter outdamaging a two-handed fighter is static bonuses. Precious things like sneak attack, static damage buffs (bard song), are necessary to really do it.
Fighter does get weapon specialization bonuses and their weapon training, but that is not enough. Especially when one attack while closing and haste are taken into consideration.
With all of that said, improved shield + two weapon fighting generally makes for a better build, since AC goes through the roof (which is good pre-late levels where the game goes to heck). But the sacrifice is even as a fighter you eat all your feats, which sucks.
Only complaint about the guide is too much focus on high levels. As stated some of your information is questionable, but it is a good starting attempt.
A Man In Black wrote:
Anecdotal evidence and numbers pulled out of your butt don't really establish anything. Show me this TWF fighter that is outdamaging a 2h fighter from 1-20 and we'll talk.
OK, then I do it but it comes with 1 assumption- the fighters 1st attack hits and both of the twf first attacks (primary and secondary) hit, as this is usually the case. Iteratives are much more random. The Fighters will be built as I'd build em for a game (not to whup each other)
TWF'er vs a 2Hander.
Ok, both human, Str 16
1st level.
2Hander takes Wpn Fcs: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave
Full attack= d20+ BAB=1 (+1 Wpn Fcs) +3Str-1(Power Attack)= d20+4,
Damage = 2d6 (assume rolled 3s) +4(Str bonus x1 1/2=4.5 round down)+3 (power attack) =13ave damage
2 Weapon fighter: Wpn Fcs shortsword, TWF, Doubleslice
Full attack=d20+ BAB=1 (+1 Wpn Fcs) +3Str-2TWF= d20+3 (but 2 attacks)
Damage = 1d6 (assume rolled 3s) +3 =6ave damage per strike so 12 if both hit.
2Hander ahead ave 1 point
4th Level
2Hander takes Wpn Fcs: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Step, Lunge, Weapon Spl: Greatsword
Full attack= d20+ BAB=4 (+1 Wpn Fcs) +3Str-2(Power Attack)= d20+6
Damage = 2d6 (assume rolled 3s) +4(Str bonus x1 1/2=4.5 round down)+6 (power attack) +2(specialisation)=18ave damage
2 Weapon fighter: Wpn Fcs shortsword, TWF, Doubleslice, EXP: Bastard Sword, Wpn Fcs: Bastard Sword, Wpn Spl: Bastard Sword
Full attack
Primary d20+ BAB=4 (+1 Wpn Fcs) +3Str-2TWF= d20+6
Damage = 1d10 (assume rolled 5s) +3STR +2 Wpn Spl=10
Offhand d20+ BAB=4 (+1 Wpn Fcs) +3Str-2TWF= d20+6
Damage = 1d6 (assume rolled 3s) +3STR = 6ave damage
(I know, I know I haven't given them magic weapons yet but I'm not sure +1 will make a huge difference yet)
2Hander ahead ave 2points
10th level
2Hander takes Wpn Fcs: Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Step up, Lunge, Weapon Spl: Greatsword, Nimble Moves, Acrobatic Steps, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will, Gtr Weapon Fcs: Greatsword, Critical Focus
Gear- +1 Frost Greatword, Str Item+2
Full attack= d20+ BAB=10 (+2 Gtr Wpn Fcs), +2Wpn Training, +1Magic Wpn +4Str-3(Power Attack)= d20+16
Damage = 2d6 (assume rolled 3s) +6(Str bonus x1 1/2=4.5 round down)+9 (power attack) +2(specialisation)+1d6 (3) cold damage +2wpn Training=28ave damage
he gets a second attack at +11 for another 28 ave if it hits.
TWF- Gear- +1 Frost Bastard Sword, +1 Flame Shortsword, Str Item+2
2 Weapon fighter: Wpn Fcs shortsword, TWF, Doubleslice, EXP: Bastard Sword, Wpn Fcs: Bastard Sword, Wpn Spl: Bastard Sword, Wpl Spl: Shortsword, Improved TWF, Power Attack, Gtr Weapon Fcs: Bastard Sword, Cleave, Gtr weapon Fcs: Shordsword.
Full attack
Primary d20+ BAB=10 (+2 Gtr Wpn Fcs) +4Str-2TWF +2 Weapon Training, -3 (Power Attack) +1Magic Weapon= d20+14
Damage = 1d10 (assume rolled 5s) +4STR +2 Wpn Spl +6(power attack) +2wpn training, +1d6 (3) cold damage =22
he gets a second attack at +9 for another 22 ave if it hits.
Offhand d20+ BAB=10 (+2 Gtr Wpn Fcs) +4Str-2TWF +1 Weapon Training, -3 (Power Attack) +1Magic Weapon= d20+13
Damage = 1d6 (assume rolled 3s) +4STR +2 Wpn Spl +3(power attack) +1wpn training, +1d6 (3) fire damage =16
He gets a second attack at +8 for another 16 if it hits.
So on a full attack a 2 hander does 28 if 1 hits and 56 if two hit.
A two hander does 22+16= 38 if both primary's hit and 76 if both secondary's hit.
It's not an unreasonable expectation for a full BAB char's first attack to nearly always hit and the second attack to usually hit (this attack is marginally more accurate than a 3/4 BAB classes and they can hit enough to bother melee)
Since a TWF'ers attacks will only be 2 points off a 2hander the same expectation can be made.
Around 10 is where the TWF'ers full attacks will start to outdamage a two handers. (and if the 2hander is subpar, in your opinion please post a more damaging build)
One thing this does highlight (and was touched on in the handbook) is that TWF'ers chew feats and obviously by going 2 hander you free a significant amount of feats doing it.
The 2 hander above does a heap more damage on cleave attacks for example and is more mobile in difficult terrain.
Cheers.
The big issue is you're looking at it straight from "non-buffed, gets full attack" position, which doesn't happen a lot at 10th level.
When charging, the Two-hander will have Vital Strike (which is left off of your build), the one-hander probably will as well; but you're going to be doing extensively more damage with that charge swinging the two handed weapon. Without changing numbers above, it's 53 for the 2-handed swinger; 35 for the two-weapon charger; pretty signficant difference on charge round.
Also, haste gives you another full attack, which will similarly benefit the fighter. At around/about 10th, fighters should either have boots of speed or a friendly mage around that are keeping them hasted for major fights. So damage numbers under haste, non-charged, go to 95 vs 84 on all hits, assuming the -2 to hit doesn't cost anything.
You're also completly removing the -2 to hit with 2-handed style; this is by no standards insignificant, especially with secondary attacks.
Additionally, a +2 weapon costs 8,000 gold. A +3 weapon costs 18,000. If you give someone 2 +2 weapons, the other guy needs a +3 to compensate, generally speaking. Two-handed fighters are the most expensive thing in the game, bar none.
And finally, two-hander costs very few feats. You have options; I'd personally also make him a pretty good archer (Point Blank, Deadly Shot, Rapid Shot, Vital Strike, Power Attack, WF: Greatsword Improved Crit: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Quickdraw... so you can full round shoot round 1, then when they charge up drop your bow and draw your greatsword and full attack). It seems like a more flexible character.
The smart way is to stick with the long sword and take improved shield bash though; so you lose 1 point of damage on-hand and gain a shield bonus. This is the argument FOR two-handed fighters, shields should be adding 4 to AC by this level. I am still sad every smart two-hander uses shield spikes though :(.
So with all those considerations, in real games Two-handers almost always outpace the two-weapon swinger (for fighters anyway; rangers get free feats to try to support it, cavaliers and rogues have precision damage which actually make it good... so it's not completly wasted. It's just not a proper fighter/paladin build).
Thalin wrote: The big issue is you're looking at it straight from "non-buffed, gets full attack" position, which doesn't happen a lot at 10th level.
When charging, the Two-hander will have Vital Strike (which is left off of your build), the one-hander probably will as well; but you're going to be doing extensively more damage with that charge swinging the two handed weapon. Without changing numbers above, it's 53 for the 2-handed swinger; 35 for the two-weapon charger; pretty signficant difference on charge round.
Am unsure if Vital Strike works with Charge/Power Attack? There has been a fair amount of chatter on this, last I saw you couln't combine vital strike with power attack cleave. Also left it out as MIB reckoned they were weak feats. I actually like them and would probably use them for a 2hander.
I also went core only for the builds, so I wouldn't get shot down for 3.5. In my group 3.5 is allowed and so the 2Wpn fighter would more likely have
1st- EXP: Bastard Sword, Oversize TWF, TWF
2nd- Wpn Fcs: Bastard Sword
3rd- Doubleslice
4th- Wpn Spl: Bastard Sword
5th- Power Attack
6th- Two Weapon Pounce (allows offhand attack at the end of a charge)
7th- ITWF
8th- GWF: Bastard Sword
9th- Improved Buckler Defense (Wear/apply Buckler AC when TWF)
10th- Whatever
Thalin wrote: Also, haste gives you another full attack, which will similarly benefit the fighter. At around/about 10th, fighters should either have boots of speed or a friendly mage around that are keeping them hasted for major fights. So damage numbers under haste, non-charged, go to 95 vs 84 on all hits, assuming the -2 to hit doesn't cost anything.
You're also completly removing the -2 to hit with 2-handed style; this is by no standards insignificant, especially with secondary attacks..
Granted.
Thalin wrote: Additionally, a +2 weapon costs 8,000 gold. A +3 weapon costs 18,000. If you give someone 2 +2 weapons, the other guy needs a +3 to compensate, generally speaking. Two-handed fighters are the most expensive thing in the game, bar none... True. But doesn't stop you.
Thalin wrote: And finally, two-hander costs very few feats. You have options; I'd personally also make him a pretty good archer (Point Blank, Deadly Shot, Rapid Shot, Vital Strike, Power Attack, WF: Greatsword Improved Crit: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Quickdraw... so you can full round shoot round 1, then when they charge up drop your bow and draw your greatsword and full attack). It seems like a more flexible character.... Switch Hitters are great. Possibly the best Mechanically sound and verstile fighters you can get. The point was to demonstrate the TWF's can outdo a 2hander- whether or not the feat investment is worth it is up to the player. Personally my 3.5 fighter is a two weapon tripmaster (utilising weapon style feats from Complete Warrior) who gets FREE trip attempts when he- full attacks, charges, Provokes AOO for leaving a threated square. A friendly mage/item keeps this useful at high levels thanks to Enlarge Person/lunge.
Thalin wrote: The smart way is to stick with the long sword and take improved shield bash though; so you lose 1 point of damage on-hand and gain a shield bonus. This is the argument FOR two-handed fighters, shields should be adding 4 to AC by this level. I am still sad every smart two-hander uses shield spikes though .... There's a Paladin in my party who makes you sad....
I wasn't knocking 2 handers, (gotta lotta love for em) There's a Barbarian/Fighter Greatclub wielder I play with who owns enemies. Just showing that if you have a jons for absolutely every point of damage that TWF can do it for you.
Cheers.
If you're allowed PHB2 TWF feats as well as PF TWF feats, TWF is a whole different ball of wax.
A Man In Black wrote: If you're allowed PHB2 TWF feats as well as PF TWF feats, TWF is a whole different ball of wax. Exactly. I wrote (and mentioned at the start) the handbook for 3.5 compatability. Old 3.5 was a strong marketing ploy from paizo and the reason many switched (including myself) TWF is far better if PHB2, CW, CA are allowed and I hope some of the awesome TWF feats get 'officially' updated.
Cheers.
If you allow every source book the game degenerates at about level 3, though for two-handing the dervish and some combat manuever feat lines take care of that whole "no attack while full moving". Go around, provoke AOOs, trip everyone when they miss, attack 6 times with your two weapons for more damage than should be legal, all at level 11. And you're still not the most powerful character in the party (well, some said I was, but that was only from the sheer amount of time my turns took).
Again, be happy that PFS reset all the sillyness that was happening from the splatbooks. Let's hope they learn and keep this game "in order"; and from the focus on base classes, it looks like they really are. How many people liked the "I have 6 classes by level 12" builds?
Druid 1 Fighter 2 Ranger 2 Barbarian 1 That Animal-Master-Guy-That-Makes-Your-Companion-Redic 1 Halfling Outrider X FTW :).
Ardenup wrote: Exactly. I wrote (and mentioned at the start) the handbook for 3.5 compatability. Old 3.5 was a strong marketing ploy from paizo and the reason many switched (including myself) TWF is far better if PHB2, CW, CA are allowed and I hope some of the awesome TWF feats get 'officially' updated. The problem with that is 3.5 non-core material includes Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, among other things, which buff zweihander in a way that they don't buff TWF.
Thalin wrote: How many people liked the "I have 6 classes by level 12" builds?
Druid 1 Fighter 2 Ranger 2 Barbarian 1 That Animal-Master-Guy-That-Makes-Your-Companion-Redic 1 Halfling Outrider X FTW :).
People who liked playing martial classes that keep up with spellcasters.
And if you're passing off a build that uses Halfling Outrider for anything, you weren't breaking the game.
I wasn't, but coming at least close. The only reason I wasn't was divine metamagic casting clerics and god-presitged mages were about me. But I had a 3 level higher animal companion and could charge past allies, male turns, and deliver 120-point packages of damage while having an untouchable AC. In the irony, after the splatbooks that just wasn't broken enough. Heck, even dervish wasn't brokenenoughh for that game.
Thalin wrote: If you allow every source book the game degenerates at about level 3, I dunno. I think allowing as many sourcebooks as possible is what's helping make my single-classed Fighter a badass. Between Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, and PHB2, I'm kicking ass and taking names. :)
When Feats are one of the main features of the Fighter, I can't see any reason to limit 'em.
Absolutely- you should post in the fighter centric feat thread about one you'd like updated as fighter only feats. Some are awesome, and frankly, a fully optimised fighter using feats from CW, CA, PHB2 (hell, even TOB) STILL is on less of a power trip than a High level Wizard.
I got a Fighter/Rogue build that can do around 200+ damage per round (on a successful full attack) and render them staggered for 1 rd and doesn't need to flank, and the fact is a core only wizard using Time Stop still laughs at that.
Nothing wrong with keeping up with casters.
Cheers.
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