Players too strong?


Kingmaker

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BigCoffee wrote:
The elf takes the second, needing only 4h of sleep.

Ahum.. I know that's probably how you want to play it, but nowhere does it state that an elf needs only 4 hours of sleep.

The best I can find is...
"Elven Immunities: Elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects."


That might have been a DnD thing?


There is one last path: let him continue to do this. If the other characters get annoyed at him for "stealing their kills" or the like? Let them roleplay it out. And from what some have said here, later adventures get more difficult, so this may very well be transitory... and even leave him feeling cocky only to find later foes are too much for his bombs.

Ultimately the game is for your players enjoyment. If they are enjoying themselves? Let them.


BigCoffee wrote:
That might have been a DnD thing?

Indeed, but you might need to tell your player this aint 3.5 ;)


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Tangent101 wrote:
Ultimately the game is for your players enjoyment. If they are enjoying themselves? Let them.

You as a GM can have some fun too perhaps?

Now I udnerstand why some GM's have a burn-out :P


Having gone through burnout, I have to say it's a combination of running too-large a group for too-long a period of time. If you're running a game every other week or for four-hour sessions and with six or under people, you won't suffer burnout in all likelihood.

But then, I went through burnout after GMing for over ten years straight, probably over 45 games a year, with each game being an all-Saturday affair including food breaks, preparing for snacks, and trying to get people to actually settle down... while also allowing players to go off and handle infants/young children.

There are tools out there to take most of the paperwork out of roleplaying. Pathfinder is a superior game system to AD&D and D&D 3rd ed. variants and I've heard several people say "it reinvigorated my enjoyment of the game." And there's more social support among GMs now to deal with issues just like this.

Ultimately the problem seems to be one character who seems overpowered at this time. But the problem also lies within this part of the adventure path which is lenient toward spellcasters and their ilk. Other books of Kingmaker include running a kingdom... which may end up allowing other players to shine and also providing the GM with new avenues in which to shine. So let that one player shine for the time being. As the game commences, one of two things will happen. Either other players will ask this guy to run something else so they can enjoy the game more themselves... or a situation will arise where bombs and elixirs cannot dominate the situation and others WILL be able to shine.


Tangent101 wrote:
Having gone through burnout, I have to say it's a combination of running too-large a group for too-long a period of time. If you're running a game every other week or for four-hour sessions and with six or under people, you won't suffer burnout in all likelihood.

Having gone through a burnout phase after a single year of once-a-week, four-to-five hour sessions with only five players, none of which was noticeably stronger or more broken than any of the others, I disagree with this very strongly.

It's different for each person, but I 100% am with Rickmeister in that if the GM is not having fun as well, burnout is an inevitability. Yes the players should have fun, but most certainly not at the GM's expense. If someone - regardless of the side of the screen they're on - isn't enjoying themselves, that's an issue that needs to be looked at and rectified ASAP, or you're going to have bigger problems and if it comes down to just burnout you might even be considered getting off lucky.

Now. Presuming who is and isn't having fun isn't the issue, what I've found, comparing that game (my old Savage Tide campaign) to my current one (Kingmaker) is taking a two or three week break between chapters helps immensely. Let someone else GM while you relax, don't worry about prepping or statting or building or plotting, just take the weight off for a while. Go playerside in some one-shots where it's deliberately silly and consequence-less fun, goofy sessions or ridiculous campaign concepts that aren't suited to long-term play but are good for just turning your brain off for a couple of weeks. Or just don't play anything for a few while you relax.

In my experience, that gives the GM's mind some time to reboot, a little less stress and some fun in the meanwhile, and you can resume at the beginning of the next story arc with a fresh brain and relaxed players, ready to charge back into the depths of an ongoing storyline.

Scarab Sages

Enemy alchemists, why should he have all the fun? Fire elementals and monks.


Because they make no sense. I'm trying to stay within the limits of the adventure and not blatantly introduce things to the bombs. Diff tactics, minor templates, etc can work, but not really going that far.


Orthos, you actually just proved my point. You were playing weekly. This was one of the predominant reasons why you suffered burnout. Though I'm not sure what you consider burnout - I consider splitting headaches when I even contemplated running a game and having no creative ability during that time period to be burnout. But then, as I was burning out, I begged the players to have someone else run the game, and they refused. So I probably aggravated the situation. ^^;;


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First off, the "OR" there divides the four-hour sessions (which ours were) from the "every other week" part, meaning as written it's one or the other, but not both; AND would have been necessary if you meant both of them together. If that's not what you meant the OR shouldn't have been there. =P

Secondly, word of advice for being on the internet: Never tell someone what their reasons are for something. Most of the time, you'll be wrong. People typically know what their issues are/were, in my experience, and claiming they are something they're not just leads to the kind of arguments that make people avoid forums. Food for thought.

No, the burnout on my part had nothing to do with playing too much. It was primarily from two things: one, that Savage Tide is an extremely dark story with a lot of freaky, disturbing flavor*, and two, of my players getting into near-constant IC and OOC conflicts, not about power but because of rules interpretations and IC viewpoint differences (one CG, one LG, constantly at odds).

Taking breaks from time to time would have helped immensely, I've learned in the time since.

*Savage Tide spoilers:
Examples:

The main villain of the early chapters has an incestual stalker-crush on the PCs' patron, his sister.
Freaky mutants cursed by a demonic plague, described in gory detail.
A trainwreck of sailing accidents that culminate in a nighttime shore wreck, much like the opening of Serpent's Skull.
One chapter involves an invisible, teleporting, party-stalking killer who leaves the bodies of NPC allies as a breadcrumb trail for the PCs to follow.
Said killer lairs in a heavily gore-ified demon temple. I kind of intensified this - beyond my own and my players' gruesome threshold - due to some suggestions from the Savage Tide forum here.
Where we left off was an underground ex-Aboleth city, which again I went into a little too much detail in describing, and set up a bit more of a hopeless-seeming scenario than intended. This combined with one player getting fed up and having his PC run off led to even more IC and OOC conflict, and all this together instigated the eventual final burnout that brought an end to that game.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The very best antidote I have found for GM burnout is talking with other GMs who are running their own homebrew games, or possibly playing in a game another GM runs that you enjoy. I have a couple GM friends that I don't game with regularly that I bounce some of my ideas off of for my own Kingmaker game, plus I draw a ton of inspiration from all you guys here on the boards. Handing another GM a situation and hearing what they would do with it often sparks who story arcs for me, even if it isn't using their ideas. The few times that hasn'tw worked, I had to step away from gaming completely for a few months and recharge my batteries to get my inspiration back.

Our own group experienced the same dark storyline burnout in Rise of the Runelords after completing all of book 1 & 2 except the BBEG at the end of Book 2. Between the homebrew sidetrek of saving the Book 1 villian's soul and the stalkerish twisted middle-story villian in Book 2, several players wanted a less heavy game. I figured what was waiting for them in the Nick Logue-land of nightmares that is Book 3 might cause some of them to quit gaming for a while given their mood, so we moved to Kingmaker. :)


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I've found that as long as I'm playing in a game I enjoy, I'm aokay with running a game. Usually don't get burnt out.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

As far as the alchemist, I would not worry about him too much. He is going to be powerful in the lower game, and probably even hold his own in the later game, but what is devastating to a group of bandits is laughable to higher level encounters. Saves start going up, resistances start appearing, special attacks and ranged effects start wreaking havoc. There is a dual wielding kukri cavalier who annihilated stuff in the mid-game in my campaign (4-6th) who now is starting to wane in power due to DR, ACs, etc. Do check his rules and math, but otherwise, it should balance out eventually. The other folks are right though, in that Kingmaker rewards those who can nova, since there are few encounters per day.

Two possible story threads that you could add into the game in the near future to make his life interesting are:

1. A fairly strong fey or group of fey are NOT happy about a fiery bomb tosser running around in their wilderness catching things on fire. And they do something about it. There are some already in the game if you care to use them, or you could add your own in.

2. A rogue group of alchemists believe he has a secret formula that creates powerful bombs and come hunting him for it. They refuse to believe he does not have the formula and stop at nothing to get it. This does two things: lets you give back some of his own medicine to the party, and also lets him have the opportunity to acquire some alchemist specific items and formulae. As a further twist, there IS a secret group of alchemists who DO have the formula, having recently discovered it in the Stolen Lands and pointed the trail to your quite well known bomb thrower. This lets him have the opportunity to possibly connect up with other alchemists as well, or have to do some investigation to find out who they are.


redcelt32 wrote:
Our own group experienced the same dark storyline burnout in Rise of the Runelords after completing all of book 1 & 2 except the BBEG at the end of Book 2. Between the homebrew sidetrek of saving the Book 1 villian's soul and the stalkerish twisted middle-story villian in Book 2, several players wanted a less heavy game. I figured what was waiting for them in the Nick Logue-land of nightmares that is Book 3 might cause some of them to quit gaming for a while given their mood, so we moved to Kingmaker. :)

Yeah, ROTRL is on the docket after we finish the CoT game that my group's other current GM is running, I imagine we'll be trying to stick with the "break for funzies after every chapter" patterns KM started to avoid going from dark to darker to ohgodwhat.


BigCoffee wrote:
It's not the time of year for a blizzard or snowstorm. Rain and fog can work however.

You are clearly not in Quebec. Oh, you mean in the game ...

I like the parts of feys being bugged by fire being thrown around every day in the forest and "tempering" with the bomb material.

Not to make it useless but possibly make it unpredictable ex.: 2d6 become 1d12 and a strange color sticks to everyone in the radius (even undamaged ones), replace the 2d6 dam. by the effect of a color spray but keep the bonus damage as is, everyone in the area lose all their hair and smell hickory.

And they hear the fairies laughing at them during combats so they might figure that they need to negotiate and maybe limit the use of fire in the forest.


BigCoffee wrote:


Does anyone have suggestions for OP players/Parties in general?

The best recipe for overpowered parties is to let them progress faster through the plot and handle things that are normally supposed to be above their weight category, rather than trying to beat them down. Unless you enjoy optmiization for its own sake.

Personally, I started the Stolen Land with a party of 3rd level PCs (Entrusting any significant task to first-level noobs? How about "no"?), so I pretty much expected them to sequence-break and deal with most of the adventure easily. They generated a reasonably optimized party with off-the-charts stealth and infiltration capabilities, so assasinating the Stag Lord and everyone in the fort is unlikely to be a problem. Well, that just means that I can make things from following adventures wander into their territory, while being confident that they will be able to avoid confrontations they deem premature.


Well, that's true, Orthos. My group was suffering strains of a marriage falling apart between two of my oldest players (I was living there at the time) and several of the players had some nasty conflict going on that was slowly polarizing the group anyway. So while I suspect running the game weekly was a factor... it was likely the straw on the camel's back.

I have to wonder if that's why I like my Skype group so much. Only one of them lives close to me. ;)


Considering both my current group and that old game were over Skype, it has its ups and downs. =) On the one hand, there's less immediate stress, I agree. On the other, you can't just take a problem player(s) outside and have a sit-down talk-out.


Well, you can after the game. If he agrees to listen. Or through typed messages using the Skype Messenger feature. But otherwise, yeah. Not being able to do one-on-one bits does have its disadvantages for scouting and the like.


FatR wrote:
Personally, I started the Stolen Land with a party of 3rd level PCs (Entrusting any significant task to first-level noobs? How about "no"?)

Objection, your FatR . . .

This is an opinion that I've long disagreed with. Just because a character is first-level does not make them a noob. How did they come to be a first-level fighter, or wizard, or rogue? Did they escape infancy and at the age of four suddenly realize they could wield a blade well enough to slay four goblins single-handed? Or, perhaps, that four-year-old has been able to cast burning hands and mage armor since its first words, which just happened to be arcane in nature!

Somehow, I doubt it. It took time and experience for these first-level characters to get as good as a first-level character gets. That can mean any number of experiences, in fact! In my KM game, I had a Paladin, Sorcerer, Rogue (spy), and a Magus all come in at first-level. Every single one of them had a plethora of experiences in their history that enabled them to get that skilled.

My point: There's no reason why a first-level character can't have plenty of experiences that make them qualified to do pretty much anything an adventure or AP desires of them for start-up. Naturally, there's a matter of perspective in all these things, and if it's your preference to start a game with higher level characters, that's completely legit. I've never understood the thinking that deems first-level characters as inept, however. It just doesn't make sense!

Sorry.

As to the problem at hand with a monty alchemist? It's true that alchemists, built properly, can be exquisitely powerful; however, any class in this game, built properly, can be exquisitely powerful. Especially since APs are designed with characters who aren't min/maxed in mind. I had an alchemist in my SS AP, and he was a true powerhouse in that game. It's not necessarily a game-breaker, though.

My suggestion on this would be to just let it go for a while. If all the players are having fun, then the game seems to be going well. In time, as the AP continues to progress, things will get more difficult, and the alchemist won't be as potent, though he'll undoubtedly remain a force throughout. The nice thing about this AP is that it enables you to build overarching villains that can study the characters' styles and exploit them. I would advise taking advantage of this boon. =)


Sub-Creator wrote:


Objection, your FatR . . .

I undestand your logic.

However.

This very AP soon enough treats us to level four MOOKS. Case in point, Drelev Guards. These aren't even some badass elite troops, just regular thugs employed by your supposed loser counterpart. Then there are Pitax mooks, levels assigned to whom don't make me point fingers and joke about MMO-style difficulty zones only because I'm not going to use that adventure.

At this point there are two possible conclusions. Either the concept of level is completely detached from the stuff that happens in-universe and is just an artificial abstraction meant to benchmark difficulty. Considering that nearly all classes get abilities that clearly are supposed to be actual in-universe superpowers as they gain levels, I personally consider this conclusion entirely unsatisfying and immersion-destroying. Or level 1 characters, prodigies they may be, still are clearly too weak and unexperienced to be entrusted with significant tasks AND actually be expected to accomplish them.


Except that there are two classifications of "people" in Pathfinder. There are Adventurers, which include the Core and Additional Classes... and the Others. Commoners. Warriors. Experts. And these are NOT equal. Not only are they not the equal of an Adventurer, a level 4 Commoner is not the equal of a level 4 Expert who is not the equal of a level 4 Adapt who is not the equal of a level 4 Noble.

The Adventuring Classes try to ensure some level of "equality" between the races. It's not perfect. But they still try. The NPC "classes" are a means of keeping track of feats, hit points, and some skills. That's all.

Or to put it another way, try siccing Level 3 Goblin Fighters against level 4 Goblin Warriors. The Fighters will win.


True, levels are only a means to scale. On the other hand, my sorcerer is going full flavor and is really un-optimized, going to grab perform oratory to write poetry and speeches, and craft:alcohol to make moonshine and booze out of the fangberries and moon radishes. Hilariously enough, his sky-high oratory might make for a good encounter versus Grigori in the second AP. I will let him have his fun, even when min-maxed, 3 level 3's plus the ally in the Stag's fort still makes for a rough fight ve the stag lord, auchs, the rogue guy, 4-6 warriors and a crazed owlbear.


Kingmaker is usually one encounter a day, and with 25 point buy that just makes it easier. They will have an easy day most of the time unless you modify the game or change several encounters to make them more difficult, and that is with a 20 point buy.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
FatR wrote:
Sub-Creator wrote:


Objection, your FatR . . .

I undestand your logic.

However.

This very AP soon enough treats us to level four MOOKS. Case in point, Drelev Guards. These aren't even some badass elite troops, just regular thugs employed by your supposed loser counterpart. Then there are Pitax mooks, levels assigned to whom don't make me point fingers and joke about MMO-style difficulty zones only because I'm not going to use that adventure.

At this point there are two possible conclusions. Either the concept of level is completely detached from the stuff that happens in-universe and is just an artificial abstraction meant to benchmark difficulty. Considering that nearly all classes get abilities that clearly are supposed to be actual in-universe superpowers as they gain levels, I personally consider this conclusion entirely unsatisfying and immersion-destroying. Or level 1 characters, prodigies they may be, still are clearly too weak and unexperienced to be entrusted with significant tasks AND actually be expected to accomplish them.

I always assumed that part of what made adventurers what they were was luck. That is the difference in my world. When a small group succeeds wildly against ridiculous odds, they are adventurers. That is also pretty much the story of every group of PCs you run as a GM.

So IMC, when you are a noble and want to take a shot at something extremely difficult or deal with a high risk situation, you hire adventurers. You aren't paying for their experience or their skill (per se), you are paying for their luck and the value of plausible deniability if things go badly. This gives you the best chance of success and also allows you to claim ignorance of them and their motivations if things go awry. The adventurers know this, which is why they ask for high rewards and make sure they take their portion whenever and wherever they can.

So in this context, it makes perfect sense for low level adventerers to go off into the Stolen Lands on a fool's errand. Just like you can be sure there are several more groups just like your PCs waiting to try their luck if they fail. Crunch all you want, we'll make more.


Had I know I'd have given them 20 pbs instead of 25, still an edge but not so bad. I'l have to abuse the alchemists's bad stats, 11-16-10-20-10-10 if I recall.


10 con score?


Minmaxed in some way, but he rolled max hp (infront of me) every level, so he's sitting at 24 now. 13-14-10-18-10-10 and then add elf modifiers. I'd try to hit them with saves, but low level saving DC is really low and easy to get. The Taztlwyrm's breath, for example, is only DC 12...


I give my monsters max hp (if it's a single encounter that day), this makes quite a difference in staying power, and not too much in damage potential.

Sometimes I advance (+2 to everything) them in the fight, if it appears to be TOO easy. :)

Works like a charm!


I tend to leave one encounter days either at challenging-epic level, challenging with terrain and weather obstacles, or escalating encounter. Like, usually a series of easy encounters that slowly build up. For example, the calling of reinforcements. I know I say it a lot, but terrain obstacles and weather hazards are a big deal because you can't really hit a landslide with your sword, or dominate a tornado. It requires a whole new way of approaching it.


Yeah, since reading some of your posts I have been looking at those rules as well. They are nice, but kinda hard to adjust "on the fly".

Next thing my players are getting is a blizzard... And man, is it going to be painful!

Anyone know of a "roll random" table for weather? Coz my players are always complaining it's horrific weather when they want to track, or snowing when they are running away :P


The worst thing you can do is make the bad guys tougher just to combat one character. All it does is penalise the players who didn't optimise, forcing them to start doing so.

Add more bad guys, don't increase their power.

Also note that the range of a bomb is only 20'.


I just roll a d6 for weather. 1 is fully bad, 6 is very nice, exact weather varies depending on the time of year. Close enough for most purposes, gives some variability, and if I roll a few days in advance I can plan out what the random encounters will be doing.


Actually, to the alchemist, you can just up the touch ac :p

And adding more HP isn't that bad. Now the party likes the alchemist more, which might lead to him not only taking combat feats?


Rickmeister wrote:

Yeah, since reading some of your posts I have been looking at those rules as well. They are nice, but kinda hard to adjust "on the fly".

Next thing my players are getting is a blizzard... And man, is it going to be painful!

Anyone know of a "roll random" table for weather? Coz my players are always complaining it's horrific weather when they want to track, or snowing when they are running away :P

Well, I usually roll a couple of weeks in advance so that I have a general plan on how it'll go. I'm surprised that the dice rolled hazardous weather all that often, since there's a 70% chance of normal weather and an 80% chance of weather than won't really affect combat. Also, I like using Dodeca Weather for more realistic weather and a bit more granularity in my weather.


Well the adventure is over. They murdered the Boggard without letting him speak (but the ranger felt horrible after he croaked * truce,,,* just before he caught a blast to the face. The 2 giant frogs were changed to a dire frogs and 3 advanced giant frogs, but I rolled poorly on the hit. They did really find the encounter odd and funny.

The skipped David Neetle because he was immune to bombs and someone quickly promised to bring him the stag lord's heard. They got into the Stag Lord's fort with the alcohol and killed everyone except Akiros, and let Auchs escape with Devon's battered corpse because they felt sorry for the oaf, especially since he stopped fighting.

The last fight was very easy for them, they had Mikmek to help (lvl 2 ranger, 3 after the right) and with Akiros quickly switching sides it worked. However I did manage to force them to use 2 hero points, which I consider a success.


Oh, as a side question. Anyone dealt with having the player that will be chosen to be the baron being from the bloodline of the guy who's currently the king of Brevoy? He's playing it as some side family further away then the 6 in line to be the next king so he has no real chance there, but if he gets to be the baron he wants to call on his family's help and such to get settled, and that somehow goes against the swordlord's plans.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I can't recall, are you using one of the Rogarvia family as still being on the throne in your game? If not, there is no king of Brevoy- he is the Regent who wants to be made officially king.

It could get very complicated with Brevoy politics if he is related to Surtova, and not necessarily in a good way. Then again, you are free to adjust the alliances and houses politically however you choose, so you can re-arrange things if you choose.


I had a far away nephew, named Danyel Surtova. He knew has was nothing, he only had his name. It took him forever to decide if he would be called "Baron Surtova", or take a new, Stolen Name :)

Made for great RP. Everyone advised a new name, he chose not to. :)

As far as rely on Regent Surtova's help... Not likely man, Noleski doesn't have time for everyone who happens to have the same name. Make him clear this can happen in advance (as in the players guide for Kingmaker) :)


Yeah he's a Surtova, and I guess you're right, Regent Surtova has more things to do then help a fledgling kid loosely related to him who's not even in direct line establish a Barony to the south. He will however make good note of this. The PC's are extremely young however, 2 17y old humans at the start of RRR with an elf in his mid 100's. It's interesting.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I forbid my players to be members of either Surtova or Rogarvia (for other reasons), so they were not forced into the chaos of Brevoy. It seems sort of a given that being part of the acting powers that be means you are involved. I wanted there to be mass chaos there and eventually civil war, but I also wanted my party to have the option to be Switzerland and stay out of it if they chose, forging their own way.

As a GM, I think you should decide how much you want your Kingmaker campaign embroiled in Brevoy politics.

If very little, then maybe have the Regent send a minor gift when he gets married, otherwise he pretty much ignores him. The Regent's enemies won't bother because in-game they consider him inconsequential and metagame the GM doesn't want the headache of dealing with complicated plots from them :)

If you want Brevoy politics in your game, then this becomes a great opportunity to have your player swept up into the intrigue, plotting, and perhaps even mass combat as Brevoy begins its slow burn to civil war. His status makes him the perfect link to drag your party into Brevoy's mess!

So we have someone who is unlikely to garner attention or protection from Surtova, but is a possibility to be used as a pawn if one is needed. Better to not proclaim your heritage too loudly!

However on the flipside, Surtova's enemies would be eager to try to use the heir for their own devices. Either they would try to discredit him and make him look bad, because even as a distant relative, a major blunder or villany will still reflect badly on the family line.

The worse case however, would be that they trick the distant heir into agression or combat. They could claim he was doing it on behalf of Surtova and force the Regent into a civil war when he was unprepared using this ploy. This could force Surtova into declaring him an outlaw or independet agent, in which case the enemy might try to kill the heir in order to make Surtova look bad.

Alternatively, they might try to garner an alliance with him, making Surtova look like his own house is splintered and weak.

Of course later in the game, as your PCs kingdom gains strength, Surtova might become his bestest friend, adding more weight to his authority and command of Brevoy.

Can you tell I like in-game politics? :)


Well I guess I solved my alchemist problem. The player asked if he could change his race and class and hand weave him having been something else all this time, mostly because he felt he was rather OP and that he figures he wasn't having all that much fun.


Huh. Interesting. You know, the other way of dealing with it is to have the Alchemist remain as an NPC that sells his former companions healing potions and the like. ;) But I must admit, that's a rather... interesting conclusion to the issue. :)


redcelt32 wrote:


I always assumed that part of what made adventurers what they were was luck. That is the difference in my world. When a small group succeeds wildly against ridiculous odds, they are adventurers. That is also pretty much the story of every group of PCs you run as a GM.

Your employers, be they Swordlords of Restov or whomever, don't have luck detectors that tell them "these people are PCs and they will beat ridiculous odds because GM will ensure that they don't actually have to face ridiculous odds". They also probably don't have penalties to Intelligence. So when you are asked to demonstrate, say, your highest-level spell, and all you can squeeze out is a piddly Magic Missile, your job interview aren't going to go too well.

Now, in most adventures, of course, level 1 noob heroes just wander into danger with nothing but standard-issue PC plot shields going for them, because no one else cares about the stuff they are dealing with, they just happen to run into it, or they are living in the middle of nowhere, and strong characters are scarce around. But in Kingmaker you are explicitly tasked with a relatively important mission by guys who seemingly expect you to survive. They will probably want to deploy someone to whom a single average hunting dog from their kennels won't be a deadly threat.


The game itself takes no issue at levels. People are people and monsters are monsters. Experience and levels is *mostly* for the player perspective. That's why the Pitax guy (I think?) and his retinue is so high level he could have cleared books 1-2-3 by himself with like a squire and a warden.


redcelt32 wrote:


But in Kingmaker you are explicitly tasked with a relatively important mission by guys who seemingly expect you to survive.

I always saw it slightly differently to that.

The two important settlements are Drelev and Varnhold. Drelev is tasked with opening up a blocked trade route. Something that is (or at least should be) making life difficult for everyone in Brevoy. Suddenly all the trade has to go through Port Ice and a Surtova stranglehold. Varnhold is tasked with keeping Restov's southern border quiet - something that could free up Restov troops to help deal with any tension that arises with New Stetven / Surtova.

The Iron Wraiths are little more than a distraction to keep the barbarian's occupied - after all no one can really expect a small group to take on whole tribes of barbarians.

The Green belt - on the other hand is a bit of a punt. No more than a gamble at best.

"We have sent the best of their troops on the other missions - and that damned Oleg bloke is being a nuisance and asking for help again! What have we got left? Not a lot, all the decent volunteers have gone to Drelev and Varnhold. the mercenaries are off playing with the barbarians. So all we have left are a few low level guardsmen. We need all the decent fighters in case Surtova gets excited ....

I know - lets see if we can get some volunteers to go help Oleg. If we offer them some sort of Charter to clean the place up so they feel important and tell them we will pay them handsomely IF they succeed ..."

Cue general chuckling around the table ...

Liberty's Edge

BigCoffee wrote:
Yeah, but he gets his bombs back everyday, and they explore once per day, Fights dont last more then 3 rounds really. He's never ran out. Splash damage can't hurt the part with one of his alchemist abilities to remove some squares from the splash zone. I tried having some retreat but he picks up a longbow, ranger takes longbow and sorcerer takes xbow and they always drop everything.

Random encounters.

He can easily go nova in every encounter and burn most/all of his bombs and extract if he is sure it will be the only fight in the day. But fight are visible, especially if a guy is throwing flaming bombs around. So a fight should increase the chance of a wandering encounter.
During the exploration phase I did roll for the chance of an encounter (beside the place encounter in the module) twice a day (once during the day, once during the night) plus a further check if they were actively searching an hex.

Even with a low chance of an encounter some day my players had 2 encounters with wandering monsters plus a set encounter.
If you know there is a chance of a further encounter later in the day you are more careful with your resources and don't burn them all in a single fight.


Might I ask what he chose to play for his replacement character? I'm just curious. :)

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
JohnB wrote:
The Green belt - on the other hand is a bit of a punt. No more than a gamble at best.

Agreed, it seems whoever is sent up against the Stag Lords are definitely the bottom barrel type of guys.

The Iron Wraiths are described as the heavy hitters, a higher level veteran mercenary band, and Drelev with his brother in law is certainly no slouch on the power scale. The Varnling host is also a veteran mercenary band. Look who they go up against as foes, and you will see they are are tough customers or hard fights in terrain that favors the enemy.

By contrast, the Stag Lord is the leader of a band of misfits, in fertile open grassland, and quite possibly his weakness is known to the leaders of the expedition. The only reason he has done so well is the fact that the Greenbelt has no real trade routes or settlements near or in it, which means he isn't really threatening anything significant. If he did and became a problem, they could just march a 100 man unit down and obliterate him.

That is not an option for dealing with the the other three charter opponents. In fact it is quite possible that the real purpose in hiring the PCs' group is just to keep the Staglord busy until one of the other groups finish off their opponent and expand over into the Greenbelt, easily taking out the Stag Lord.

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