you can buy a griffon.Wait, you want to be able to buy and sell sentient creatures? Isn't that... slavery? According to the rulebook it certainly is.
Characters eager for griffon mounts, however, should note that buying or forcibly domesticating intelligent creatures like griffons is still recognized as slavery by most good deities, and winning a griffon's allegiance of its own free will is no easy task.Or perhaps those magical beasts are cohorts or special mounts as per the class feature and feats rules?
Which makes them Equipment. Which means they do not advance through accumulating XP.
I did find this langauge in the NPC gear section
Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment. If your campaign is using the fast experience progression, treat your NPCs as one level higher when determining their gear. If your campaign is using the slow experience progression, treat the NPCs as one level lower when determining their gear. If your campaign is high fantasy, double these values. Reduce them by half if your campaign is low fantasy. If the final value of an NPC's gear is a little over or under these amounts, that's okay.It seems to suggests that NPC do gain experiences points.
But nowhere in that section does it mention anything about the NPCs leveling.
All it's saying is (if you look at the full context and not that one bolded line) that if you're characters are stronger than usual due to fast xp progression or high point-buy you should give NPCs more loot. If you have a slow progression or low point-buy cut back on the loot.
So it's all about the strength of the PCs and the wealth available to them via the enemies they defeat, or at least that's what it seems to me.
If it has an intelligence of 3, or higher, and it accompanies you whilst you adventure, you say it gains experience?
Unless it's a Follower, of course. Taking the Leadership feat apparently means that your INT 3+ companions are worse off than your mount.
I did find this langauge in the NPC gear section
Note that these values are approximate and based on the values for a campaign using the medium experience progression and a normal treasure allotment. If your campaign is using the fast experience progression, treat your NPCs as one level higher when determining their gear. If your campaign is using the slow experience progression, treat the NPCs as one level lower when determining their gear. If your campaign is high fantasy, double these values. Reduce them by half if your campaign is low fantasy. If the final value of an NPC's gear is a little over or under these amounts, that's okay.It seems to suggests that NPC do gain experiences points.But nowhere in that section does it mention anything about the NPCs leveling.
All it's saying is (if you look at the full context and not that one bolded line) that if you're characters are stronger than usual due to fast xp progression or high point-buy you should give NPCs more loot. If you have a slow progression or low point-buy cut back on the loot.
So it's all about the strength of the PCs and the wealth available to them via the enemies they defeat, or at least that's what it seems to me.
Why in the world would it matter how fast the PCs are leveling when it comes to NPC gear. A fast leveling PC at 10th level is just as strong a a slow leveling PC at 10th level.
Please read Damir's post. He said it better than I did.
Why in the world would it matter how fast the PCs are leveling when it comes to NPC gear. A fast leveling PC at 10th level is just as strong a a slow leveling PC at 10th level.
It is about Wealth By Level. Fast levelling PCs will get less encounters between levelling up, and therefore less chance to accumulate loot.
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I can't be any more clear than I have already been.So, it's type, not intelligence?So, 3 intelligence, or above?No, you have to be sentient and animals apparently are not sentient regardless what their intelligence is. That is a least what I get from the awaken language on PSRD20
Then would you mind repeating it.
I must be just too blind, and stupid to see it.
Have pity.
Is it type, or intelligence, that allows a mount to gain XP?
I can't be any more clear than I have already been.
Awaken only works on plants and animals, not on magical beasts. Therefore the target will have animal intelligence. The animal type states that an animal must have:
•Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Therefore the question of sentience and intelligence is irrelevant, because an animal cannot be sentient due to its low intelligence. If it were intelligent enough to be sentient it wouldn't be an animal.
The rules imply that normal animals (and constructs) can take class levels.
From the section on adding class levels to creatures:
Step 1: Determine Creature's Role
When adding class levels to a creature, the first step is to determine what role the base creature fulfills. There are three basic roles into which a creature might fall. A creature can fall into more than one role if its abilities are diverse.
Combat: This creature is designed to be good at melee or ranged combat with a weapon or its natural weapons. In either case, these monsters have a number of feats and abilities to enhance their combat prowess (or are good simply by nature of their Hit Dice and ability scores). If a creature does not possess many spells, special abilities, or skills, it is a combat monster.
Most animals, constructs, dragons, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin fall into this role, as do some creatures of all the other types.
This section is only about adding class levels to monsters. Since animals (Int 1-2) and constructs (usually Int -) are mentioned, it implies that they can indeed have class levels.
Adding class levels to monsters is not the same as having mounts advance by XP alongside PCs. It's about building templates and more powerful monsters.
You guys and ladies are so combative that you continue to argue with me on a point that I have long since conceded.
I was clarifying a point that you did not appear to be clear about,
No, you have to be sentient and animals apparently are not sentient regardless what their intelligence is. That is a least what I get from the awaken language on PSRD20
, and answering Blackbloodtroll at the same time.
You still haven't answered his question, however.
Do you believe that mounts should advance through XP because of their type, or because of their Int/sentience?
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That is the rule for PCs. That is telling you how PC advance. It is not telling you that NPC do not advance the same way.As player characters overcome challenges, they gain experience points. As these points accumulate, PCs advance in level and power.There's the rule. Nothing about NPCs accruing XP. I agree that non-class-feature, non-cohort mounts are probably better handled as equipment rather than NPCs (although there is a precedent, because slaves are listed in the equipment section, and they're definitely NPCs). Nonetheless, if you do consider mounts NPCs, there are no rules out there for granting NPCs XP. There are rules for advancing NPCs, but they are strictly the purview of the GM (the monster and NPC advancement rules). XP is just for PCs.
If you are looking for hard rules, here's the deal. The rules don't tell you what you can't do, they tell you what you can do. There's no rule that says a first-level character can't destroy pantheons with nuclear weapons he pulls out of his nose. That doesn't mean you can do it.
There aren't rules for giving NPCs experience. So unless you make something up, aka house rule it, it's not in the rules.
The rules for advancing NPCs, other than animal companions/mounts/familiars/eidolons/etc. and cohorts, are:
and
Neither of which mention XP.
From Ultimate Campaign:
Mounts: Common mounts (such as horses or riding dogs bought from a merchant, rather than mounts that are class features) don't normally advance. If extraordinary circumstances merit a mount gaining Hit Dice, and you have Handle Animal ranks and take an interest in training the animal, use the same guidelines as those for animal companions.
They don't normally advance. Implies they can possibly advance.
Core Rulebook - LEadership feat:
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
Cohorts are NPCs. Flat out says they gain XP. Ultimate Campaign also says hirelings (also NPCs) don't normally advance, so they wouldn't gain XP.
In short, its entirely up to the GM.
People answered your question the answer is no, they do not gain levels. That's not how it works if the GM wants it to have levels then yes but in general unless it is gained via the leadership feat it does not gain levels.
Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean you get to say no one understands your question and then dismiss the answers. Sorry it's not the answer you wanted but you question was answered.
From Ultimate Campaign:
Mounts: Common mounts (such as horses or riding dogs bought from a merchant, rather than mounts that are class features) don't normally advance. If extraordinary circumstances merit a mount gaining Hit Dice, and you have Handle Animal ranks and take an interest in training the animal, use the same guidelines as those for animal companions.They don't normally advance. Implies they can possibly advance.
Core Rulebook - LEadership feat:
Cohorts are NPCs. Flat out says they gain XP.A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
Pretty sure extraordinary circumstance = GM Fiat
To original question: Not specified. It's up to the GM. Note that even if the mount does accumulate experience points, it may not necessarily be able to gain levels in a class; rather, it might simply advance using the Monster Advancement guidelines--again, all subject to GM discretion.
As for whether NPCs gain experience at all: Also unclear, probably deliberately so. The rules only provide explicit mechanisms for PCs and their cohorts gaining experience points. NPCs are generated at a particular level at the time they are designed, and they advance solely at GM discretion.
If you're looking for existing rules text to bolster your argument, some advice: Scrounging through minutiae hoping that the design team hid a "yes, you secretly CAN buy a horse and level it in barbarian, you clever reader, you!" isn't going to help make your position more definitive. If the designers wanted this to be a 100%, always-available-unless-the-GM-specifically-disallows-it thing, they would have mentioned it specifically in the rules. Instead, they stayed silent on the subject, which leaves it up to that wonderful thing we call table variance.
Scrounging through minutiae hoping that the design team hid a "yes, you secretly CAN buy a horse and level it in barbarian, you clever reader, you!" isn't going to help make your position more definitive.
In fairness, he's really want to level his griffon mount rather than his horse. It still isn't in the rules, but he has wanted to make clear that he is over the idea of horses levelling now, and just wants XP for magical beast mounts instead.
The Leadership feat exists so you can have a friend or magical beast pet that advances along side you.
No Leadership feat, or class feature that provides its own sort of leveling, then no leveling. It is that simple. The rules do not allow for NPCs to use the XP mechanic (this may be an oversight, but the rules are not there) and a magical beast you have trained up as a mount is an NPC.
If you want to level your griffon, take Leadership, a griffon counts as an 8th level cohort.
Scrounging through minutiae hoping that the design team hid a "yes, you secretly CAN buy a horse and level it in barbarian, you clever reader, you!" isn't going to help make your position more definitive.In fairness, he's really want to level his griffon mount rather than his horse. It still isn't in the rules, but he has wanted to make clear that he is over the idea of horses levelling now, and just wants XP for magical beast mounts instead.
Point taken. For my part, if I'm GMing a game in which an NPC accompanies the party for long periods and engaging in encounters alongside them, I'd expect the NPC to grow as well, though it'd be along a growth path appropriate to the NPC.
NPCs don't gain levels because the book never says they can, that doesn't mean they can't have X levels. a Horse CAN if the GM wants give it 3 level of commoner, this gives it 3 HD and 1 extra BAB, but there are no rules that say NPCs gain experience.
Leadership SETS their level, they don't gain experience, you do; and if you level, your cohort might too.
NPCs gain more loot on faster progression because you will out level them sooner, AKA hey don't gain levels.
this is a horse, it does not have levels and thus does not gain any benefit of having levels unoless the GM gives them some. Likewise, NPCs don't get to be a higher level unless a GM says they do.
Once again, the book doesn't say they do, so they don't even though the book doesn't say they don't doesn't mean they don't. liek for instance the book doesn't say you start falling into the sky if there is no roof above you head, but does not explicitly say it cannot happen. AKA, you CAN if the GM wants you to, but otherwise nothing happens.
if anything could gain levels, everything should have at least one level of something since level 1 is 0 exp, and since a large portion of the bestiary does not have levels, but HD, it suggests that they do not.
Awaken simply explicitly says that the animal CAN take levels, they could before since the rules never said no, but more than likely your GM didn't want the badger having barbarian levels, so instead awaken is a way that explicitly says they can.
Leadership SETS their level, they don't gain experience, you do; and if you level, your cohort might too.
No it doesn't.
A cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party's XP. Instead, divide the cohort's level by your level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than your level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed to attain the next level.
They don't gain experience like normal (as it is based on both your level and theirs), but they do gain experience points and level up when their XP total is enough to do so. They don't automatically level up just because you do so.
I checked the entire core rule book for experience points for NPCs. There is nothing in the entire core rule book that states that NPCs gain experience (other than the rules for cohorts gained from leadership).
The experience point table is called "Character Advancement and Level-Dependant Bonuses", not "Player Character Advancement and Level-Dependant Bonuses". By leaving out the "Player", the table should apply to all characters (both player and non-player characters). Indeed, NPCs also use the table anyway, for the purpose of the number of feats they gain and ability score increases. It only makes sense they use the rest of the table as well.
The same page has rules for character advancement. With the exception of one sentence ("As player characters overcome challenges, they gain
experience points."), it always says "character", not "player character".
The rules for rewarding experience alternates between both "characters" and "player characters".
There is enough in the book to, at the very least, imply NPCs can gain XP. Even if there is no direct quote saying they do, or they don't. (Even the rules for hirelings say they don't usually advance, not that they can't advance at all.)
Page 30 - As player characters overcome challenges, they gain experience points. Read the entire section. There is nothing in that section that mentions that NPCs gain experience points. You guys are trying to read things that aren't there.
One sentence in the entire section. In a paragraph before the rules-sections even start. Plus, that sentence can easily be read as overcoming challenges is how PCs earn experience, not necessarily how NPCs earn it.
The actual rules paragraphs (under the "Advancing Your Character" heading) only says "characters", not "player characters".
Page 399 - Keep a list of the CRs of all the monsters, traps, obstacles and roleplaying encounters the PCs overcome. At the end of the session, award XP to each PC that participated.
There is nothing in the awarding experience section that mentions awarding XP to NPCs.
Same page also says:
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game characters advance in level by defeating monsters, overcoming challenges, and completing adventures—in so doing, they earn experience points (XP for short).
Exact XP: Once the game session is over, take your list of defeated CR numbers and look up the value of each CR on Table 12–2 under the “Total XP” column. Add up the XP values for each CR and then divide this total by the number of characters—each character earns an amount of XP equal to this number.
Again, "characters", not "player characters".
And just to make something clear - I'm not arguing that NPCs should gain experience. Just that the rules do allow it as a possibility.
Also, what player would want the GM to divide the total experience by the number of PCs + one guy's griffon. That line alone should get the players to decide they don't want the griffon getting any XP.
Probably no player. But if that griffon is contributing to the combat, making things easier, them yes it should be accounted for when determining experience. Even if it doesn't gain XP itself, if would be reducing the XP the party gains.
Animal companions are part of the class, so they don't count (just as a wizards fireball or fighters armor training don't change the XP). The Leadership feat specifically says cohorts don't count. Horses you just ride around on in combat wouldn't count (they really aren't adding anything).
But if that griffon (or other creature), acquired through gold or even just roleplay, is meaningfully contributing to combat (attacking, distracting the opponent, or whatever) than is should be reducing the amount of XP the party receives.
By not counting the griffon (or tther stronger creature type), you basically encourage the entire party to get a stronger mount. After all, that allows them to double the party size, deal more damage every round, deal with tougher/larger groups of monsters and yet still get the exact same amount of XP and treasure as if they did the same thing with only the PCs themselves.
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The game distinguishes between PCs, NPCs, and monsters. However, it does a poor job of nailing down exactly what the differences are. See chapter 1 of the CRB and you'll see this. In various parts of the books, the word character is used for all creatures, at other times, the context suggests the word is used only for PCs, and other times it seems to refer to any creature with class level. In addition, the designers are quite find of waffle words like usually, normally, generally, etc. Such words give designers and GMs an out when choosing to do something atypical. Between these factors, trying to get a clear answer to the initial question effectively requires that readers have an opinion in advance, and the same sections can be used to argue both ways.
The sections on NPCs in the CRB and the section on advancing monsters in the Bestiary are directed to the GM with respect to creating those creatures, whether NPC or monster, for the PCs to interact with. It is reasonable to assume that a 20th level NPC Wizard wasn't born as such and that he gained levels to get there. How he gained those levels is a black box, because it is generally unimportant. In cases where a creature that can advance by class levels needs more details for how it advances is left to the GM to decide.
Appendix 13 on Monster Roles classifies creatures and identifies which can gain classes. Those with no role never advance by class levels. These are typically creatures that have an Int of 1 or 2, or are mindless. They are listed in detail. Horses and griffins have no role. They don't advance by class. However, on gaining an Int of 3, their role changes to combat. They can then gain class levels. See the following link, particularly the fourth paragraph down from the top: Monster Roles Link.
However, when how they gain classes is still nebulous, undefined, or otherwise without an answer that will satisfy everyone. Can a horse or griffin, either with an Int of 3+ gain class levels? Yes. Does it always do so? No. If nothing else we know that based on how animal companions behave. If they do, is it based on gaining XP? That's ultimately unclear and up to the GM, as tiresome as that phrase is.
Edit: changed alias and fixed bad link.
Appendix 13 on Monster Roles classifies creatures and identifies which can gain classes. Those with no role never advance by class levels. These are typically creatures that have an Int of 1 or 2, or are mindless. They are listed in detail. Horses and griffins have no role. They don't advance by class. However, on gaining an Int of 3, their role changes to combat. They can then gain class levels. See the following link, particularly the fourth paragraph down from the top: Monster Roles Link.
Ah. There we go. Something about this. Too bad it flat-out contradicts something appearing in the exact same book. (The roles list lists all animals as "No Role", while the section of the book dealing with adding class levels to creatures says most animals fall into the Combat role.)
Combat: This creature is designed to be good at melee or ranged combat with a weapon or its natural weapons. In either case, these monsters have a number of feats and abilities to enhance their combat prowess (or are good simply by nature of their Hit Dice and ability scores). If a creature does not possess many spells, special abilities, or skills, it is a combat monster.
Most animals, constructs, dragons, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, plants, and vermin fall into this role, as do some creatures of all the other types.
So it doesn't really help. IT still falls upon the GM to make a decision.
If your campaign is using the fast experience progression, treat your NPCs as one level higher when determining their gear. If your campaign is using the slow experience progression, treat the NPCs as one level lower when determining their gear.It seems to suggests that NPC do gain experiences points.
If you're using fast leveling, the PCs will level up in much fewer battles. In order to keep the PCs up to standard WBL, you have to give them more money per battle. That is the reason for that clause.
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Jerra: The Monster Roles section states that creatures with an Int of 1-2 or mindless change role to combat role if they get to Int 3. The only time your dealing with class levels and animals is when the animal has an Int of 3+, and thus has a combat role.
It isn't a contradiction when read in context instead of picking out individual sentences.
The real question is 'Why Driver 325 yards needs an answer to his question that fits his personal opinion'.
May answer is that he is a player who wants to level up his characters animals ..
Next time you're GMing and your players are all riding horses, at the end of the session tell them 'you only get half the usual XP this time - your horses get the other half'.
Bottom line is that there are no rules to support either assertion as animals were never intended to level up with the party without a class ability or feat. All the rules for increasing animal (or monster) HD or adding class levels are all within the purview of the GM, and at his sole discretion.
If you want a badass chicken (or whatever) get one as an AC or cohort (or bribe your GM - chocolate works)
Next time you're GMing and your players are all riding horses, at the end of the session tell them 'you only get half the usual XP this time - your horses get the other half'.
'Oh wait, I forgot about the ten porters you hired to carry your gear and loot about the dungeon. Oh yes, and your minstrel trio, scribe, doctor and armourer. Looks like you get very little for killing that dragon, but on the bright side your hirelings and mounts level up.'
Nah, I don't think so.
Can you imagine how many NPCs with class levels they'd be in the average village if that system worked? No need to actually fight, just hang about at the rear and provide the non-combat support. Yes, you'd lose an occasional one to traps or ambushes, but most would come out alive. They'd organise a rota for accompanying the adventurer parties into dungeons and soon no 1st Level PC party would be able to get hirelings because the NPCs in the local villages would all be a higher level.
To say nothing of the line of high-level magical beasts pimping themselves as mounts.
Another scenario.
You buy your horse at Level 1 and keep it alive all the way through to where it become Level 4. At that point it gains a stat bonus which goes into Int. You now have an Int 3 horse, which takes a point of Linguistics and is now Ed the talking horse.
'So, about those spurs you bought at the last town. I've sold them and bought a nice blanket instead. Deal with it.'
Another scenario.
You buy your horse at Level 1 and keep it alive all the way through to where it become Level 4. At that point it gains a stat bonus which goes into Int. You now have an Int 3 horse, which takes a point of Linguistics and is now Ed the talking horse.
'So, about those spurs you bought at the last town. I've sold them and bought a nice blanket instead. Deal with it.'
...This scenario actually seems interesting. Now I sort've WANT my random horse to gain levels.