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I just threw up a thread in the rules forum asking for a FAQ blog on the issue of lighting in general and the darkness/deeper darkness spells. If you all have something to add to it please stop by and post. Hopefully the Dev team will see it and give us a nice big FAQ blog on the issues, including the FAQ requests that Jiggy asked for.
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Double light-dunk is this argument from earlier:
"I think one of the most important parts of the spell are that Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness.
So, as your first step in determining the so-called ambient light level, you have to negate any lighting increases from any nonmagical source of light affecting the area of Darkness before the spell is cast. To me, taken to that extreme, it means that the normal ambient level of light in the area of effect of a Darkness spell is automatically going to have to be darkness.
Why do I say that?
Assuming you don't have to deal with a magical light source of higher level, there is no source of light that can affect the area covered by the Darkness spell.
Nonmagical light sources are effectively rendered null and void by the Darkness spell when it is cast. So, no light sources in the area of effect, no nonmagical light can increase the light level in the area of effect.
The Sun is nonmagical light, agreed? Therefore, sunlight is not going to be raising the light level in an area of Darkness. Neither are torches, lanterns, sun rods, camp fires, or any other source of light. Therefore, I cannot see any way that the ambient light level, in an area affected by the Darkness spell, can start at any level except darkness.
Yuck.
Overall, I think this means that either there is some sort of basic mis-interpretation in what I am understanding from the spell effect, or the whole Light/Dark family of spells needs to be errataed into something that makes sense."
By this interpretation, darkness can turn a normally or even brightly lit room lit by normal means dark. Bullocks. It suppress light partially in one area, and no amount of sunrods negate that level of suppression, but the suppression can never be more than one step.
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The Sun is nonmagical light, agreed?
No, not agreed.
It's never defined. Maybe it's magical (maybe even Supernatural so it doesn't even have a spell level), or maybe it's nonmagical.
Or maybe, not all light has to fit into the two categories that darkness shuts down.
It's been my experience in this and many other threads that in the end, once someone has gotten to the point of finally reading and grasping all the relevant text, their final interpretation of light/dark issues depends on a single point: what assumptions they make about sunlight.
If someone makes the assumption that it's what darkness is talking about when it says "Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns"; then they have that line shutting down the sun and always defaulting to total darkness and making the "down 1 step" function meaningless, so then they go and try to reinterpret other things to make that not happen.
If someone makes the assumption that the sun, being undefined, does not fall into either of the categories described by darkness, then you get a different result entirely.
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Well what I'm saying is that darkness does indeed affect sunlight and torchlight and braziers, etc, but only to the magnitude that spell specifically states.
The room is light to a normal level by some cultists braziers. The room before anything is cast is at normal level. So if someone throws darkness, there will be an area where the light is decreased a step where it cannot be increased.
Say we wanted to brightly light a corner of the room. We throw a whole bag of sunrods over in the corner with no special effects. The corner becomes brightly light. If we throw the whole bag of sun rods into the area affected by darkness, then nothing happens and it remain dim, since they can't increase the light level in an area of darkness.
However, let's say we are at Bob's sun rod emporium. The whole room is covered in sunrods, making the room light level brightly lit. A darkness spell only lowers the emporium to normal; ie the one step it gets. Bringing more and more sunrods into that normal area won't get it brightly lit again, but the darkness does not negate every sunrod in the emporium. The sunrods set the default light level, and then that gets lowered by darkness.
This makes darkness have the most efficacy in an underground/torchlight scenario, would sounds about right to me.
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@David: Okay, so what happens if I carry the only light source out of the darkness and then carry it back in again?
What if there's currently a sunrod in the area, then I light a new sunrod in the area? Now I have two identical items in the same place, doing different things.
What if I start in a dark room, then light a sunrod (increasing the light level to normal), then cast darkness? The area of darkness is at a higher light level than it would be if there were no sunrod, so how can we not be in violation of "do not increase the light level"?
There's an Official FAQ on darkness which says "it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level, and then reduces it one step". What are we doing when we "default to the ambient natural light level"? It's pretty obviously something different than "and then reduces it one step". So what is it?
It's hard for me to accept an interpretation that flatly contradicts explicit rules/FAQs when there's an alternative which, despite dealing with some undefined terms, at least does not contradict anything.
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To me, a single sunrod does not change the ambient light level. The ambient light level in a cave is darkness. The ambient light level in Bob's Sunrod Emporium is bright light. I refuse to implement interpretations of darkness that override ambient conditions without a *specific* ruling that states this to be the case. I think ambient conditions can arise from natural, unnatural and supernatural sources. All should be treated equally for establishing ambient light.
Without a RAW definition of ambient light, the FAQ does not clear much up. I'm using ambient light as the prevailing conditions in whatever room or cave the PC party is in. Regular cave? Ambient is darkness. Glowing moss? Ambient is dim. Cave with multiple bright braziers? Ambient is normal. I don't know what they were intending by "natural" ambient, and at this point, without further clarification, I don't care.
The spell darkness works just fine with this interpretation. It completely blacks out your standard level 3-4 group in dark or dim caves. The moss scenario won't help because the dim ambient goes to darkness and no mundane light helps. That's a crazy strong spell right there, since there are no 2nd level light spells to my knowledge. The spell can take regular light and give 20% concealment via dim light to a group of critters. There's no mechanical reason to make darkness more powerful than that.
I don't see the hubub over the sun. On a sunny day, outside, darkness makes a patch of normal light conditions. What's the big deal? Why wouldn't sunlight be subject the effects of darkness exactly?
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I just threw up a thread in the rules forum asking for a FAQ blog on the issue of lighting in general and the darkness/deeper darkness spells. If you all have something to add to it please stop by and post. Hopefully the Dev team will see it and give us a nice big FAQ blog on the issues, including the FAQ requests that Jiggy asked for.I went looking for this thread on the rules forum... but I seem to have missed it. What's the title? or give a link? so I can go FAQ it...
I don't know if the FAQ system is the right way to do it. I have not postulated a question for the FAQ. However, you are welcome to click the FAQ as it is probably the best way of drawing attention to the request.
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The "only light sources within a darkness radius are suppressed by it" interpretation is one I disagree with, but it is one which, near as I can tell, does not clearly violate any written rules/FAQs and is therefore legal for PFS. I would not have any problem with a GM running it that way at a table I was playing in.
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David, I beleave that a number of people have a problem with the line in the spell that reads:
"Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness."
They are reading this to mean,
That if the light in an area comes from a source that is a "normal" mundane light source (like torches/lanterns/sunrods/etc.) that it does not light the area of the darkness effect, even if that source is outside the area of the darkness effect. So ... if you class the sun as a "normal" source - then it doesn't raise the light level in the area of the darkness effect.SO... they feel this is wrong - and they fix it by creating another form of light source. One that is not magical (which you can boost a darkness effect to be higher level than), and not "natural" (which would be surpressed by their interpretation of the line "Nonmagical sources of light...").
I think "the fix" is unneeded for the reasons I detailed above.
That, to me, seems beyond the scope of a 2nd level spell. My reading is that none of these things improve the light level in the darkness area, because they don't meet the higher level light spell condition. However, I don't think this means that darkness shuts down non-magical ambient light sources. Darkness gets its one step that can't be altered by normal means, but it doesn't get to trump the ambient light sources completely.
The whole thing is very poorly worded. No, the sun doesn't get to "raise" the light level in darkness, but the sun sets the ambient at brightly lit before darkness comes into play. Ambient light sets the bar from which darkness acts upon. These other interpretations massively overpower the spell. It already completely hoses level 3-4 groups in dim ambient light. What else do people want?
Deeper Darkness, which is far, far worse, plunges *normal* lighting conditions into darkness and makes dim supernaturally dark. It should not be able to take brightly light rooms and make them supernaturally dark. That's too strong for a 3rd level spell.
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"A darkness effect does two things:
1) It supresses light sources.
2) It reduces the light level."
So, to me, the steps to take are:
1) DM establishes ambient light level
2) Apply the light level reduction
3) Suppress attempts to modify this modification to the light level
Sunrods outside the darkness effect, unless they are numerous enough to function as "ambient light" as in Bob's Emporium, can't assist in the area affected by darkness. I think that's a fair power level for darkness.
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That, to me, seems beyond the scope of a 2nd level spell. ....
What else do people want?
.....
That's too strong for a 3rd level spell.
With respect, our opinions on power level don't always matter.
We're talking about PFS, and that means we run things as written, including Official FAQ entries. The text is binding.
In cases where the rules are silent on something (for instance, what type of light source the sun is), we are free to make interpretations, and those interpretations can be informed by our sense of game balance. But whatever IS defined in the rules/FAQ, we are required to follow regardless of what we think a spell of X level "should" be doing.
You can make your own interpretations on what it means to default to the natural ambient light, but you still have to do it prior to reducing the light level by steps. The former is undefined and therefore up to interpretation; the latter is non-negotiable.
You can make your own interpretations of whether "in the area" qualifies "sources of light" or just "raises the light level", but you still have to apply that rule whether you like it or not. The former requires the reader to speculate between two possible readings; the latter is not optional.
There's always going to be something that you think is too powerful (*cough*summoners*cough*), but you don't get to just throw it out. We're adults who can handle having to do something someone else's way sometimes.
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"darkness effect is generated.
1. Surpress all mundain light sources in the AOE. Surpress all magical light sources of the same level or lower that are in the AOE.
2. Reduce the light level in the area by one step."
I reverse these steps. I reduce the light level, and then suppress attempts to modify this new light level within the area of effect. Darkness, the way I read it, does not get to suppress all the light sources that make up ambient light and THEN reduce the light level. It reduces it and then suppresses attempts to change this reduction.
@Jiggy. My interpretation of darkness gives it its one step of light reduction. No more, no less. And until they explicitly say it has a way to drop normal-level ambieng light down to darkness, it's not going to in my games.
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"darkness effect is generated.
1. Surpress all mundain light sources in the AOE. Surpress all magical light sources of the same level or lower that are in the AOE.
2. Reduce the light level in the area by one step."I reverse these steps. I reduce the light level, and then suppress attempts to modify this new light level within the area of effect.
The FAQ explicitly puts the steps in the order nosig states. To intentionally reverse them is beyond your authority in PFS Organized Play. The FAQ is binding. Overturning it as a table GM is illegal.
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"ok... but what if the only light in the AOE comes from those sources? The ones that are now surpressed?"
Then the PCs better be good at blindfighting. What you describe is something like a cave, where the PCs brought their torches. The ambient light is "darkness". A cultist cave with a dozen braziers would be "dim" or "normal" depending on spacing and size of braziers.
So, yeah, if you have the time to set up light 20 sunrods around a room, and then lure the critters into it, I'd let that be "normal" ambient light and the darkness can only dunk it to "dim". But seriously, how is that going to happen in PFS? Darkness, even with my version, is still the shaft is many cases.
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No I'm adding a step.
1) Determine ambient light level. This is stuff NOT IN THE AOE of the spell.
2) Reduce ambient one step.
3) Suppress light sources within the AOE; ie this reduction can't be undone by normal means.
"1. Surpress all mundain light sources in the AOE. Surpress all magical light sources of the same level or lower that are in the AOE. "
This line from the FAQ does not contradict my step 1 in anyway, since those sources are outside the AoE.
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1) Determine ambient light level. This is stuff NOT IN THE AOE of the spell.
.....
This line from the FAQ does not contradict my step 1 in anyway, since those sources are outside the AoE.
Wait... So are you saying that if Bob's Sunrod Shop is small enough that the darkness radius fills the room completely, then it'd go all the way down to "dark"?
If so, then I've been misunderstanding you for quite a while.
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No I'm adding a step.
1) Determine ambient light level. This is stuff NOT IN THE AOE of the spell.
2) Reduce ambient one step.
3) Suppress light sources within the AOE; ie this reduction can't be undone by normal means.
"1. Surpress all mundain light sources in the AOE. Surpress all magical light sources of the same level or lower that are in the AOE. "
This line from the FAQ does not contradict my step 1 in anyway, since those sources are outside the AoE.
ah... isn't this exactly what I have been saying from the start?
now I'm confused...
I just do 1&2 together....
Maybe it's what you're saying. The way to tell is if using your method, the PCs can ever experience "darkness" when starting off at "normal" ambient light. If you say, "oh those 20 braziers spaced 5 feet apart that give normal light? Well those don't do anything at all in the darkness area! So there's no light coming from anything! Darkness it is!" To me, those braziers are setting the bar from which darkness operates.
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1) Determine ambient light level. This is stuff NOT IN THE AOE of the spell.
.....
This line from the FAQ does not contradict my step 1 in anyway, since those sources are outside the AoE.
Wait... So are you saying that if Bob's Sunrod Shop is small enough that the darkness radius fills the room completely, then it'd go all the way down to "dark"?
If so, then I've been misunderstanding you for quite a while.
Well I guess it depends on whether there are windows. But if it is a sun-tight box, and all the light is coming from sunrods, and they all end up in the AOE, it seems by definition, they wouldn't function. This situation makes the DM redefine the ambient conditions. The DM would have to look at light sources outside the AOE.
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So I guess you'd need 20 or 40 sunrods in a room big enough and have them spaced out well enough. That seems very unwieldy.
Rooms that are small enough to be covered by a single darkness are still gonna be deathtraps. Because probably at that point, the only ambient light left is "dim", which then gets reduced by one step.
What I'm getting is some goober can't walk into a huge hall lit by dozens of light sources causing the ambient to be "normal" and dunk it into "darkness" with a level 2 spell. They can't cover all the light sources, and the light is only reduced a single step.
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But the Sun IS something other than non-magical. Ask any Vampire! Although, a simple light dimming spell seems to fix this. Moonlight is also special for some spells/ability. Then there's a trait/feat that only works during the daytime (to boost Charisma skills) no matter where you are. But all that could be symbolic.
Question - What light spell would toast/ash that Vampire??
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Here's another can of worms to open on this discussion. Let's say you have a heightened continual flame on your item (Spell Level 3). Continual Flame sheds light as a torch. The radius of light on a torch is 20' and it increases the light level 20' past that. So if I am 30' away from a darkness spell, it looks like it will raise the light level one step to dim light(in the area that it reaches). Now look at this:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and
half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given
radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal
light, and dim light for such characters.
So if I am 30' away with that continual flame and I have low-light vision does that mean that I can see in the darkness spell's area as if it were normal light? If I am 50' away does the continual flame increase the light level(in the area that it reaches)to dim light for creatures with low-light vision while leaving it dark for everyone else?
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we're all pretty clear on how the spell works at this point, the only thing that needs to be defined is "what constitutes ambient light"
because of the word "natural" in the faq.
I'm defining "Natural Ambient Light sources" as - The Sun, Moon, or something uniquely powerful such as a cave entirely lined with neon glowing crystals.
IE: If no intelligent creatures ever set foot here, if it were completely uninhabited what would the light level be?
To this 90% of the time outside of the sun, I would say "dark or dim" either way, darkness makes it "dark" and deeper darkness makes it "supernaturally dark"
That's how I define "Natural" and the FAQ requires "Natural ambient light" those 3 words are 1 defined term, created by the FAQ.
Therefore I look for 2 steps.
1) Is there natural light? [a] yes [b] no
a) determine it's level, reduce it by 1.
b) it's dark.
The other common interpretation is nosig's which follows a couple simple steps.
1) Are there light source originating in the area of darkness? Yes, they don't count
2) are there light sources originating outside the area of darkness? Yes, they determine the light of the room
3) Lower that determined value by the appropriate number of steps. (1 for darkness, 2 for deeper darkness).