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nosig wrote:What about the part where your deck is built to grab those cards from the discard and use them again for free
Also, in explaining the way the wizard casts spells for many newbies, I just tell them it's like the card game Magic. Pick you spell cards - when you cast them they go back to the deck.
That would be Mnemonic Enhancer (a wizard only spell) or perhaps pearls of power?

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I don't think spell casting is inherently bad, I don't even think it's that confusing for brand new players, HOWEVER those classes have significantly more rules than the other classes.
In addition, managing your spells can be a challenge for a brand new player, and they might have less fun if they run out of spells on the second combat and start shooting a crossbow.
Archers are the easiest class for a new player. "I use this bow, I roll this die, do i hit? ok then I roll this other die"

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LazarX wrote:Benrislove wrote:The good thing about the Pathfinder DB packet that I keep handy is that it stops at the Core Rule book and APG, which are books that we don't have to check for player progression. Also, if a player is new to the system, it's asking for trouble to give them a magus right off the bat.since nosig asked to see a magus; and I started a pretty huge argument over it, here's the magus as an example of what I give new players for classes we don't have pre-gens for.
** spoiler omitted **...
If a player is new to pathfinder but has played 3.5 for 10 years, and the magus is what caught their eye?
IF the magus caught his eye, he probably owns the book and made one of his own. IF he doesn't own any Pathfinder material, then he can't play the Magus anyway at a PFS table. That's the other good thing about the DB material, it didn't require the use of specific owned material as Core and APG are default assumptions.
That and there were even 3.5 experts who found the magus confusing at first look. It's not as simple a class as you might be inferring.

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Benrislove wrote:Except for firing into combat and cover rules. If you are a ranger, also favored enemy bonuses. Also rapid shot.Archers are the easiest class for a new player. "I use this bow, I roll this die, do i hit? ok then I roll this other die"
That's why a pregen should have precise shot, and not rapid shot :)
What i do is Human ranger, favored enemy undead (to help with DR). Point Blank, Precise at one, and before the game i tell them that enemies get more AC if there is something in the way, so try and get clear shots.
Honestly the only thing they have to know is that it's harder to hit things in cover, and since it's +4 AC they don't need to know how that works, I just tell them "clear shots are easier to hit" and they are fine.
I have used this method to teach brand new to RPG players the game many times (usually girlfriends :-p ) It works like a charm.
By the time the level up a couple times they have a better time understanding things like rapid shot, but first game "Can I shoot that guy?" yeah, but he has cover. "What if I move here" "that's a clear shot, go for it."

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Benrislove wrote:LazarX wrote:Benrislove wrote:The good thing about the Pathfinder DB packet that I keep handy is that it stops at the Core Rule book and APG, which are books that we don't have to check for player progression. Also, if a player is new to the system, it's asking for trouble to give them a magus right off the bat.since nosig asked to see a magus; and I started a pretty huge argument over it, here's the magus as an example of what I give new players for classes we don't have pre-gens for.
** spoiler omitted **...
If a player is new to pathfinder but has played 3.5 for 10 years, and the magus is what caught their eye?
IF the magus caught his eye, he probably owns the book and made one of his own. IF he doesn't own any Pathfinder material, then he can't play the Magus anyway at a PFS table. That's the other good thing about the DB material, it didn't require the use of specific owned material as Core and APG are default assumptions.
That and there were even 3.5 experts who found the magus confusing at first look. It's not as simple a class as you might be inferring.
Spellstrike is the confusing part of magus, well really the combining of spellstrike with spell combat, there is a little bit of confusing stuff at higher levels with how many, and what you can add to a weapon with 1 swift action. (1 special ability, and the "rest" must be raw enhancement)
HOWEVER none of the those are on the level 1 magus, it only has spell combat. "As a full-round action you may cast a spell and make a melee attack, at a -2 penalty". A d20 knowledgeable player can certainly figure that out.
Spell recall, spellstrike, arcane pool enhancement, all of those things? yeah there is some confusion/debate on how they work, and they are often played incorrectly. Luckily all of those rules are beyond first level :)
Without any pathfinder material nobody can play a 2nd session of the game after they have applied a chronicle, but that's not the goal here. The goal is to get people playing.
I have the books, I lend people the books to look over class abilities ect, and as I said in my earlier posts I print out the pages for the non CRB classes. If someone wants to take that PC to a convention and play it, they can I provide all the material they need (outside of the core assumption) to play the character.

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My wife started PFS with a Wizard, an Evoker. So her school ability was "force missile" - basicly a magic missile. SO... she never rolls a dice to hit, always hits. Only rolls one dice (a d4). That, with sleep spells and mage armor and an actual magic missile spell.... she actually could have thought d20s were just for skill check. Much simpler...