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So the bluff skill is pretty descriptive of how you convince someone of your lies. However, the rules aren't very clear on how you convince someone that you're telling the truth when they normally wouldn't believe you--such as convincing the town guard that this doppelganger was actually trying to do an undercover investigation and the person he's impersonating was doing the crimes. Or just as simple as "no, I SWEAR I didn't sleep with that woman!"
I don't think these would fall under the general Sense Motive DC20 Hunch: "get a gut assment of the social situation," and even if it did I'm not sure I would want it to--particularly because it takes all the power out of the players' hands, putting it solely on the skill roll of an NPC.
I imagine Diplomacy would be useful, but what kind of DCs would there be? Would it be modified for the target's attitude toward you? The unlikeliness of the story (same modifiers as if bluffing)? How much would the target's Sense Motive come into play?
I used to make it a diplomacy roll that I made up a DC on the spot or a hard and fast this NPC is/isn't willing to believe you, but this is happening enough that I need a more solid basis for these situations.
Diplomacy--if they're made friendly or better, they should trust you.
Ok, how about in reverse? An NPC claims something that the party is suspicious of and they ask to make a sense motive check.
The NPC is telling the truth.
How do I resolve this, as PCs don't exactly have attitude levels the NPCs roll diplomacy to try to achieve?
Sense Motive DC 20 for a hunch.
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.|
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Ok, how about in reverse? An NPC claims something that the party is suspicious of and they ask to make a sense motive check.
The NPC is telling the truth.
How do I resolve this, as PCs don't exactly have attitude levels the NPCs roll diplomacy to try to achieve?
Sense Motive DC 20 for a hunch.
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
While I don't mean to be nitpicky, one of the situations that made me bring this up is when the party was talking to a Szarni thief--certainly not a trustworthy fellow. But in that one circumstance he was telling the truth (after he lied about something else--so the party thought he was lying again to cover up his other lie, when in reality he was giving in to their pressure).
I guess when it comes right down to it, I just don't think it should be that simple. I have a tendency to overcomplicate things.
Sense Motive DC 20 for a hunch.
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.While I don't mean to be nitpicky, one of the situations that made me bring this up is when the party was talking to a Szarni thief--certainly not a trustworthy fellow. But in that one circumstance he was telling the truth (after he lied about something else--so the party thought he was lying again to cover up his other lie, when in reality he was giving in to their pressure).
I guess when it comes right down to it, I just don't think it should be that simple. I have a tendency to overcomplicate things.
Hunch does say that is involves making a gut assessment of the social situation; getting a feeling that someone is trustworthy may very well mean in that particular instance, not in general.
Sense Motive DC 20 for a hunch.
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
While I don't mean to be nitpicky, one of the situations that made me bring this up is when the party was talking to a Szarni thief--certainly not a trustworthy fellow. But in that one circumstance he was telling the truth (after he lied about something else--so the party thought he was lying again to cover up his other lie, when in reality he was giving in to their pressure).
I guess when it comes right down to it, I just don't think it should be that simple. I have a tendency to overcomplicate things.
So stop overcomplicating things. Seriously.
Sense motive should be good for more than telling if someone is lying. It should be good for telling if someone is telling the truth. Or, more accurately, it should be useful to tell the players whether or not their the target seems sincere to their PCs' powers of discernment. Whether or not the players actually believe the NPC, their PCs' sense motive skills tell them they can detect no hint of insincerity. You should be able to tell them that without and not overcomplicate the issue.
Whatever roll you make and EVEN if it is a success a it's the players that will need to make the choice if they believe it or not, you may not be able to convince them. No amount of dice rolling is going to be able to give you that information i'm afraid. If so you are not really giving the players any kind of choice and you end up railroading them to a certain extent.
As above, roll the dice if the npc or player succeeds they are telling the truth and they SHOULD believe them.
No more rolls needed as its just going to be the same end result, don't complicate matters, they either believe it or they don't then its just a case of good old role-playing not roll-playing i'm afraid.
As in real life there is only so much you can do, either someone believes you or they don't, no amount of convincing is going to sway the mind without some kind of proof.
How about this:
The Party's Perspective:
Strange man they met in the corner of the bar tells them of a treasure located in the "abandoned cave to the north". They're suspicious. DM says, "Roll Sense Motive", rolls a die, and says "You find him trustworthy."
DM Perspective (Truth-teller):
DM rolls a Diplomacy check for the strange man. If he succeeds vs. PC he's talking to most (who may have a high charisma that raises the DC), they find him trustworthy. If the PC's sense motive gets the Hunch DC 20, they find him trustworthy. If you want to raise the suspense, roll the sense motives in secret if the diplomacy failed. This may lead to some PCs believing him and others not.
DM Perspective (Liar):
DM rolls a Bluff check for the strange man. Each PC who he beats finds him trustworthy. If rolled in secret, tougher for the party to know.
So to the party, they have the mechanics operating in front of them, so don't have an automatic clue as to whether it's a truth-teller or liar.
However, per the Hunch rule, if someone in the party has +19 sense motive or higher, they'll automatically know when someone is telling the truth. But if you don't make them roll (or roll for them), they won't (out of character) know whether they *know* he's telling the truth, or their character is convinced he's telling the truth.