Somebody once suggested to me that the monk should get the WIS bonus to damage from unarmed and monk weapon attacks in addition to STR similar to the 3.5 swashbuckler getting an INT bonus to damage. This would let a monk focus on WIS, DEX, CON and not worry so much about STR. If you wanted a STR build, you would lose HP or AC but the extra damage might be worth it. I would put weapon finesse in the Monk's pool of bonus feats at first level and combat expertise at sixth level.
1) Give the monk wisdom bonus to hit instead of strength with monk weapons, unarmed strikes, and maneuvers. This cuts MAD down, and allows the monk to function with only one maxed out score just like every other class in the game, even the MAD ones. He's MAD on the ranger/paladin level now, rather than being a class of MADness of his own.2) Change ki-strike to give an enhancement bonus to hit. +1 at 4th level, +2 at 7th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 13th and +5 at 16th. Now he can hit as accurately as everyone else, and isn't so utterly dependent on one magic item. It's still a good idea, as this enhancement bonus is only to hit, not damage, and has no special properties - but if he doesn't have it, he's not useless.
3) A special thing: get rid of the ki-strike DR bypasses. Replace them with a single ability at first level, letting the monk bypass one point of ANY DR or Hardness for every level of monk he has. Now he's the 'hurt anything' guy. Whatever he runs into he can hit, and it can't just ignore him. His damage isn't huge, but his stunning fist is a little more effective and he can reliably hurt things. Now he really CAN take advantage of enemy vulnerabilities and offer significant support to his friends. Plus, it's thematic with the martial artist that can shatter defences with his bare hands.
There are a lot of other things I would want to fix, but these three are the absolute musts to have the monk a viable class that is neither overpowered nor underpowered.
I would place those feats in, as well as style feats, but in my 'fix' suggestions I was looking to do the minimum required to bring the monk up to speed. I suggest a wis bonus to hit and not damage because I do not want to completely undermine Strength - wisdom is a loaded attribute already, and there are a lot of existing strength-built monks out there as is I wouldn't want to undermine in validity. There are a lot of other things I would change as well, but they are not the essentials for the monk to function - they are gravy, this is meat.
Moreover, I want to get the emphasis away from dishing out just raw damage. Wis-to-hit lets the monk concentrate on one essential score to max-out, which is what he needs (and it's what every other class has - one essential score, one or more secondary moderately good scores). Doing so gives stunning fist better odds to work, which can make up for a lot all on it's own. Not anything like automatic, but if you hit more often, damage more often, and have a decent save DC, it will work more than once in a blue moon.
The KI strike progression that you suggest is a little better than the bonus to AC that monk's currently get. However, I would synch those together as an attack/defense adjustment. Your DR bypass per monk level is better than the KI strike DR bypasses. I would limit it to only unarmed or enhanced monk weapon (see below) attacks.
I wouldn't link it to the AC bonus, simply because the point is to keep pace with the other martial's bonuses to hit (as well as make the AoMF less than absolutely essential), not lag behind them. Most martials con comfortably afford a +5 or more weapon by 15th level, so making the monk wait until 20th is just going to extend an existing problem. On the flip side, the monk is only getting the bonus to hit, and it's an enhancement bonus so he's not getting to stack it with an AoMF if he has one. The AoMF is still important for properties, and for the static damage bonus, but if you are in a game with no crafters, few sources of magic items outside of plunder, and no items like the AoMF in said plunder, then you are not completely gimped (yes, been there and done that).
The DR & Hardness bypass should be for unarmed strike only (or a ki-focus weapon, obviously), sorry I didn't make that clear. To me this is thematic as the guy that can shatter planks with his bare hands being able to dish the hurt on anything. It gives the monk a clear combat role too: he may not deal the most damage, but whatever you are fighting, he can hurt it. It makes him an effective support fighter, as others have suggested he is meant to be. It makes the concept of a lot of hits and low damage adding up actually workable. Given his defensive advantages, the monk can indeed solo a foe; it will take him longer, but he can now claim to pull his weight.
I would modify the monk's fast movement by allowing them to take half of the bonus movement in a round as extra tactical moves (the 5 ft. step). In other words, a monk with a 10 ft. bonus move could move 40 ft. and standard action or could take two 5 ft. steps and full round action or double move 80 ft. The extra tactical moves must be used together (in this case a 10 ft. move that does not provoke AoO), spring attack would not affect this.
Interesting - complex, but interesting. For simplicity I prefer the "1 ki point for 20' movement as a swift action" idea, but this is an interesting alternative.
To be honest, I think the whole "one attack if you move" concept is one I'd attack at the core rules level, rather than treat the monk as a special case. I'd also introduce the concept of "pushing back" other than bull-rushing.
I would also not only apply the monk's advance in damage to unarmed strikes, but also to one monk weapon (limited to weapons that have 1d6 damage or higher for a medium monk) at 6th, 12th,and 18th levels. I would call this "Enhance Weapon Damage(Ex)" or some other suitably inane name.
I like the idea, but again I am looking for the minimum needed, plus this encroaches on some archetypes. There is LOADS I would change about the monk on a re-write, or even an extensive overhaul: slow fall, still mind, wholeness of body, abundant step, diamond soul, tongue of the sun and the moon, and empty body ALL need some radical overhauls. However, the qinggong monk archetype does provide options for these, so I don't regard it as essential to address these.
Paizo have said they will only consider small tweaks, not major changes. Hence why I'm looking at changes that are minor in wordage, but do address the core needs of the class.
How would it hurt archetypes? Becuase you'd have to add in a change to their wording or something if we added an ability or something?
It wouldn't. Changing Improved Unarmed Strike changes no archetypes, since no archetypes change Improved Unarmed Strike.
I think what Dark Immortal means is that some archetypes lose flurry of blows, and they would in turn be losing more than they currently do if flurry of blows has more to it. Also, this suggestion of enhancing flurry of blows heightens the issue of "flurry & not move/move & no flurry" for a class that is supposed to be mobile.
It's a great idea, but it's like the feat Hammer the Gap, which adds to damage with each successive blow in a round: as the odds of landing the successive blows are progressively lower, your odds of getting much out of it are slim. As monks already have poorer odds to hit than other full BAB classes, the number of hits you are likely to get is smaller and hence the advantage less than it may seem. If your average odds of hitting are not at least twice in a round, you are unlikely to get much out of this change.
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I suggest a wis bonus to hit and not damage because I do not want to completely undermine Strength - wisdom is a loaded attribute already, and there are a lot of existing strength-built monks out there as is I wouldn't want to undermine in validity. There are a lot of other things I would change as well, but they are not the essentials for the monk to function - they are gravy, this is meat.
Moreover, I want to get the emphasis away from dishing out just raw damage. Wis-to-hit lets the monk concentrate on one essential score to max-out, which is what he needs (and it's what every other class has - one essential score, one or more secondary moderately good scores). Doing so gives stunning fist better odds to work, which can make up for a lot all on it's own. Not anything like automatic, but if you hit more often, damage more often, and have a decent save DC, it will work more than once in a blue moon.
I guess I'm confusing myself a little here. I view a monk currently needing to max WIS, have good DEX, CON and STR and if you want skills or combat reflexes, some INT. If you make the WIS bonus "to hit", you still need WIS, DEX, CON and STR (for damage). If you put the WIS bonus to damage instead, you can couple it with weapon finesse and greatly reduce the impact of STR on the character. I wouldn't dump it, but you could get by with a 10.
I wouldn't link it to the AC bonus, simply because the point is to keep pace with the other martial's bonuses to hit (as well as make the AoMF less than absolutely essential), not lag behind them. Most martials con comfortably afford a +5 or more weapon by 15th level, so making the monk wait until 20th is just going to extend an existing problem. On the flip side, the monk is only getting the bonus to hit, and it's an enhancement bonus so he's not getting to stack it with an AoMF if he has one. The AoMF is still important for properties, and for the static damage bonus, but if you are in a game with no crafters, few sources of magic items outside of plunder, and no items like the AoMF in said plunder, then you are not completely gimped (yes, been there and done that).
I would not make this bonus an enhancement bonus but an insight bonus to hit. But, synching the bonus to hit with AC bonus either way (your original progression or the one currently in print for the AC adjustment) is a very minor difference. I believe either would work well.
I feel that the ability to move without provoking AoO's and still full attack and the ability to damage anything, give the monk the defined combat role that it has been lacking.
I'm interested in seeing how you would rewrite the class, Dabbler. I think your other ideas are pretty strong.
Andy
I guess I'm confusing myself a little here. I view a monk currently needing to max WIS, have good DEX, CON and STR and if you want skills or combat reflexes, some INT. If you make the WIS bonus "to hit", you still need WIS, DEX, CON and STR (for damage). If you put the WIS bonus to damage instead, you can couple it with weapon finesse and greatly reduce the impact of STR on the character. I wouldn't dump it, but you could get by with a 10.I suggest a wis bonus to hit and not damage because I do not want to completely undermine Strength - wisdom is a loaded attribute already, and there are a lot of existing strength-built monks out there as is I wouldn't want to undermine in validity. There are a lot of other things I would change as well, but they are not the essentials for the monk to function - they are gravy, this is meat.
Moreover, I want to get the emphasis away from dishing out just raw damage. Wis-to-hit lets the monk concentrate on one essential score to max-out, which is what he needs (and it's what every other class has - one essential score, one or more secondary moderately good scores). Doing so gives stunning fist better odds to work, which can make up for a lot all on it's own. Not anything like automatic, but if you hit more often, damage more often, and have a decent save DC, it will work more than once in a blue moon.
If you have a conventional martial character you tend to either max out strength or dexterity as your hitting-stat. If the monk focuses on wisdom (to improve his ki and ability DCs) he loses out here, and ends up +2 to +3 behind. Stack this with the AoMFs failings (+1 behind a single weapon) and the penalty for FoB/TWF of -2 and compared to the standard martial the monk is around a good +5 behind. If the AC of a challenge is set to be a 50/50 hit for the standard martial, it's only 25% for the monk. He's going to get half the hits as a normal martial, and he's already down (on average) on damage. The higher the AC (and hence the CR) the worse it gets, so in boss fights the monk is proportionally less effective.
If the monk maxes out on strength or dexterity, then he reduces this disparity a little, but then he has the current MAD problem - his class abilities now depend on a secondary or even tertiary stat and his AC suffers, because he has so much else he needs.
Placing hitting on wisdom means you can if you choose max out on just one stat and NOT lose out on those hits. Your AC can still be good, and yes you still have to choose between dex for AC and strength for damage, but you can balance these as you wish without losing out on the hits. There's no more all-or-nothing.
I wouldn't link it to the AC bonus, simply because the point is to keep pace with the other martial's bonuses to hit (as well as make the AoMF less than absolutely essential), not lag behind them. Most martials con comfortably afford a +5 or more weapon by 15th level, so making the monk wait until 20th is just going to extend an existing problem. On the flip side, the monk is only getting the bonus to hit, and it's an enhancement bonus so he's not getting to stack it with an AoMF if he has one. The AoMF is still important for properties, and for the static damage bonus, but if you are in a game with no crafters, few sources of magic items outside of plunder, and no items like the AoMF in said plunder, then you are not completely gimped (yes, been there and done that).I would not make this bonus an enhancement bonus but an insight bonus to hit. But, synching the bonus to hit with AC bonus either way (your original progression or the one currently in print for the AC adjustment) is a very minor difference. I believe either would work well.
It's still a difference that costs the monk +1, and those +1's add up. I don't want to make it an insight bonus simply because I don't want it to stack with the AoMF - I want to make the flurrying monk the equal of a ranger not fighting his favoured enemy, not the superior. If it was an insight bonus then sure, pair it with the AC bonus, but then the monk could end up hitting more accurately than the TWFing martial without his special abilities, and that I want to avoid.
I feel that the ability to move without provoking AoO's and still full attack and the ability to damage anything, give the monk the defined combat role that it has been lacking.
I agree, although I would probably just amend the movement to "spend 1 ki point to move 20' as a swift action" in the ki-pool feature rather than just adding +20' movement. I would not negate the AoO's on this - the monk already has Mobility as a bonus feat and a stellar Acrobatics score.
I'm interested in seeing how you would rewrite the class, Dabbler. I think your other ideas are pretty strong.
Thank you, I'm glad you like them. I'm going to try them in a home game I am running, a player there who is new to the system is trying a monk, and he's currently got wisdom as his top stat. It's becoming obvious that he's going to struggle otherwise, and the party otherwise has a rogue, cleric, and wizard.
Considering TWF-ing is an inferior fighting style, is it really such a bad thing that he'd hit a bit more often than most TWFers?
And I'm not 100% convinced he'd surpass the Ranger by a significant amount either. The AoMF is still expensive as hell, so at any given level you'd be up maybe 1 or 2 at maximum (and then Favored Enemy would shoot the Ranger way ahead again).
Yeah, but were effectively enhancing stunning fist AND giving the monk his own 'thing' of bypassing DR, AND he's getting an effective pounce from the "move 20' as a swift action" change in ki pool. Let's not overdo it.
Oh this is all at once?
Still...
Enhancing Stunning Fist: Not really. You're just increasing the DC somewhat by increasing reliance on Wis. Unless I missed something else.
The bypassing DR is great, no doubt.
The Pounce is good too, but I don't think enough to justify toning something down for just so they don't ever so slightly surpass the Ranger (without FE). Especially when the Pounce is limited by the Ki Pool size.
But maybe my bias is showing.
oh what the hell, I wasn't gonna link it...but I can't help myself
SHAMEFUL SELF PROMOTION
What about doing something along the lines of the magus with monk flavour?
Instead of adding wisdom to hit, you could have a ki pool attack that bypasses armor class up to your wisdom modifier.... some kind of internal ki damage trope. Make it last a minute for one ki and your hitting issue drops off lickity split.
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Exactly Dabbler. If you lose flurry of blows and it is a powered up class feature, archetypes that get rid of it need to get an equally potent benefit. But changing how a feat works and throwing in a change to an open ended existing feature is probably the easiest, least obtrusive way to go about it.
Pump flurry for monks. Add bonuses from the Ki Pool based on how much ki is in the pool. The bonuses (mostly passive or long duration buffs) can cover many of the issues that the class suffers, if not all of them. Ie, a monk can also spend 1 ki to get the benefits of enchanted fists, which operates just like magic fang, with a caster level equal to their monk level and a useful duration (hours equal to monk level?).
When a monk has X ki in their pool, a monk may take a move action and still use flurry of blows.
As long as the monk has Y ki in their ki pool, they may add their slow fall distance to the total distance jumped on any acrobatics check they make (and take no damage from falling on the turn they make the acrobatics check (and do not fail an acrobatics check).
By spending 2 points of ki, a monk can enhance their ki strike further, to the next category of ki strike. The bonus lasts for a number of hours equal to their monk level. If the monks fists already act as adamantine, the monk can ignore all damage reduction a creature might possess. Further, a monk can expend one additional ki point to allow their fists to ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction a target might possess. This feature cannot be used until Z level.
Stunning Fist: When used by a monk, the attack is treated as a melee touch attack and the DC to resist stunning fist is increased by 1. A monk may also make multiple stunning fist attempts per round.
You could also change flurry of blows to be all touch attacks for a monk. >=) I don't think anyone would argue about their 'to hit' anymore after that or about amulet of mighty fists costs or about damage reduction.
You can use this general system to fix a ton of monk abilities. If the monk has 4-5 ki in their pool, their wholeness of body heals twice as much and they can apply it to allies.
By spending 1-2 points of ki a monk can gain the benefits of tongue of sun and moon for a number of hours equal to their monk level. If they already have this ability, a monk gets detect thoughts at will and can spend X ki to mind blast (or insert whatever mental mind type ability you feel is appropriate).
Last idea: At 8th level a monk can use Abundant Step, even if they don't have it. The cost is 3 ki. When a monk uses Abundant Step, if they have 1 or more ki in their pool, they may gain the benefits of the dimensional agility feat. If a monk has 4-5 or more ki in their pool and uses Abundant Step, they gain the benefits of Fly with a caster level equal to their monk level.
Almost every single monk facet can be edited with additions to the ki pool without making existing core monks have to change. If I were given charge of designing the changes to a monk, I'd definitely see the appeal of the simple add ons to one or two pre-existing features, though I would want to look at some other options, too.
This strikes me as exceedingly versatile and allowing for the existing mess of a monk to stay that same mess but actually benefit from it and be able to refine their roll. If you really needed to get rid of Mad (not as necessary with the changes you can make), you can probably introduce that in some clever way as well, that still is streamlined with all the existing monk features. Effectively, the ki pool is much more like grit and much more useful rather than an occasional afterthought.
Oh yeah, I'd also allow the monk to spend ki for a bonus attack once per round on any action they take. Move action + free attack. Standard action + free attack. Full attack + free attack. The restriction on that ability, as is, seems unnecessarily limiting. The net result should be that if they want an attack or an extra one on any given round, they can spend a point of ki to get it.
Season to taste. Some of it may be too much, some may be too little. But it does address just about everything from flavor to mobility/skirmishing to pure offensive options to supportive options. All in the core class.
It's not as archetype friendly but with some thought, I'm sure it could work since you only need to add the new ki pool options you want and which are least disruptive and most beneficial.
Anyway, these are just some half rear-ended ideas I threw out. I don't claim they are balanced or strong enough. Just general ideas that should clarify my pov a little.
Oh this is all at once?
Oh yes, although these are suggestions, I aimed at balancing them all together.
Enhancing Stunning Fist: Not really. You're just increasing the DC somewhat by increasing reliance on Wis. Unless I missed something else.
You are also increasing the likelihood of hitting reliably, and you are bypassing DR so the odds of damaging if you hit are practically automatic, and the save DC is better. Those add up. If you take your 10th level monk with ten attempts with a net 10% chance to work with each attempt and up that chance to just 30%, you have a lot more successes - almost one per encounter rather than one per adventuring day. One successful stunning fist on the BBEG could mean "I win" to all intents and purposes, nice, but we don't want that happening too often!
The bypassing DR is great, no doubt.
Thank you.
The Pounce is good too, but I don't think enough to justify toning something down for just so they don't ever so slightly surpass the Ranger (without FE). Especially when the Pounce is limited by the Ki Pool size.
But maybe my bias is showing.
Well, how many pounces per day do you need? One per encounter, maybe? It makes ki a much stronger feature for the monk if you can use ki to 'pounce' within 20' or gain an attack as a standard action, or both.
@Dark Immortal - I like where you are coming from with amending the ki-pool, it's maybe not the way I would do it, and it makes the martial artist archetype proportionally weaker, but it's one way to go.
I won't! I am now play-testing my changes and posting up the results here.
Dotting for later comment.
MA
My (latest) take on overhauling the monk class: Bigger, Badder, and Plenty Cut Monk. :)
MA