3/4 BaB that pretends to be full. Can't actually use their fist well without investing in the AoMF which has its own issues. It has many class features but most of them are meh or situational and don't help it do more damage or solve puzzles. Its a MAD class that requires 4 high stats to function well in combat.
Those are a few reasons. I'm sure there are more and better ones.
The main issue is that (as much as it pains me to admit it) anything the Monk can do, X can do better. X being any other class.
You can be pretty good at a lot of things, provided your stats are good enough and you build right, but you're never going to be the best at anything in a similarly optimized party, and it requires a lot more investment to be useful than pretty much any other class.
You can be an okay skill character, if you can spare the Int, but other classes are better. You can be a decent frontliner, if you have good Str, Con, Dex, AND Wis, but other classes can do it just as well with less stats required because they can wear armor. Hit dice and BaB are too low for a frontliner, basically, but skills and special abilities are too limited or just too...nonexistent to be a decent support, face, or caster type.
Really the only thing you can do very well as a Monk is be an archer with the Zen Archer archetype, and even then I think the Ranger probably beats you out.
All in all it's a fun class with some major issues.
They need to just go all the way and make the Monk a fully capable front line fighter, or revamp his abilities so he's more like a caster like every other 3/4 BaB class but Rogue.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
In my opinion, the opinion that the monk is under-powered comes from a purely statistical view point that doesn't take real world situations into account. You can't quantify the number of times someone will avoid an AoO due to a monk's special abilities so they must be useless. You can't put a number on how useful being immune to diseases can be, so it must be useless. The monk's increased speed means they'll make less stealth checks to sneak across a field, but how many less, and how often will it happen? You can't really put a number on that, so it's never considered.
Some arguments say that since 4 classes can do part of what a monk can do better, the monk is useless. Or they'll say that since in an arena deathmatch, the fighter will win, so a monk must be under-powered.
In my experience, a Monk's strongest attributes come from the eclectic abilities that make is extremely useful in actual adventuring. Stuff you can't just say "This will be 14.6 times more useful". Then they'll argue that math doesn't lie all the while misleading you into thinking that since the Fighter's BAB is 20 and the monk's is only 15 the fighter will hit 25% more times, leaving off the fact that the average AC is 14 meaning they'll both hit 95% of the time.
This argument comes up A LOT, and what you'll find is that it's pretty useless. Those that think the monk is under-powered, will ALWAYS think that, those that don't never will.
What is the issues with AMoF?3/4 BaB that pretends to be full. Can't actually use their fist well without investing in the AoMF which has its own issues. It has many class features but most of them are meh or situational and don't help it do more damage or solve puzzles. Its a MAD class that requires 4 high stats to function well in combat.
Those are a few reasons. I'm sure there are more and better ones.
It costs twice as much as a weapon and is capped at a +5 bonus.
This argument comes up A LOT, and what you'll find is that it's pretty useless. Those that think the monk is under-powered, will ALWAYS think that, those that don't never will.
And the ones that don't think that way are in the vast minority.
I play a Monk regularly. I've spent more time building Monks than any other class combined.
But the fact of the matter is, as-is he's got nothing going for him that a single class (among others) can't do better: Ranger.
More BaB, bigger hit dice more skills, Medium armor, free prerequisite-less Feats, less MAD-ness, still has Evasion (though not improved), bonuses against common enemy types, bonuses in certain terrains, some spells (one of which can essentially give him Favored Enemy: Everything), and a meat shield.
The Monk has on him: a better Will save, immunity to disease and poisons, and a bit of movement speed at any practical level.
Ranger's very existence slaps the current Monk (hell, Fighter too at least) in the face. I don't like it, but it's true.
And it's not that Ranger is OP either, he's balanced with or worse than the majority of other classes. It's that Monk is a poorly designed class.
And where are you getting that the average AC is 14? I never see AC 14 enemies after like level 3.
In my opinion, the opinion that the monk is under-powered comes from a purely statistical view point that doesn't take real world situations into account.
Speaking for myself, the issues with the monk come in game play as well as in mechanics.
It's a provable fact that the monk needs a butt-load of good ability scores to function half-way decently compared to any other class, and it's borne out by my experience in game-play.
As a fighting class, the monk's attacks and damage lag badly behind those of other combat classes, and when you are in a tough fight this makes him almost certainly unable to hit anything, and if it has DR he may be unable to damage it either. He gets good maneuvers, but not the Greater maneuvers without investing in Combat Expertise, which means he needs even more ability scores - and without them, maneuvers are pretty useless above 10th level.
His AC can be good, but his hit points aren't. Fighters can easily beat him in both arenas. His saves are good, but paladins are better.
But isn't he a good all-rounder?
No, sadly, he isn't. He's not second best combat class at fighting, he's third. Ranger is second best, behind fighters, paladins and barbarians. Bards can be made to fight better than monks - at least they can self-buff.
Similarly for skills, he's third-rank after rogues, rangers and bards. He's up there with barbarians and druids, and I don't need to reiterate how much those three classes have on him.
He's second best for AC and for saves, just about, but defensive abilities don't help the rest of the party.
What about his special abilities? Well what about them...
Stunning Fist - requires you to hit and do damage, and the monk already struggles at those. Then the target gets a save. It's great when you pull it off, it's rare that it happens in my experience. No way is it as useful as the tricks other martial classes can pull.
Still Mind - gosh, a whole +2 bonus to saves against just one school of spells. Can I remind you the paladin gets total immunity?
Ki-powers - not a patch on spells available to paladins and rangers. Running and jumping around sounds great, until the wizard casts fly and then it's redundant. A barbarians rage powers are better, and he gets more use of them per day. The only decent ability is the one that boosts your AC, and you can't even use that every round in combat.
Wholeness of body - costs way too much ki, heals very little, and is in short the equivelant of drinking a potion, at a level where drinking a potion costs minimal resources. Biggest waste of an ability ever.
Diamond Soul - more of a hindrance than a help, as it works against the buffs that are cast on you as well as hostile spells. If your party uses buffs, this ability is worse than useless.
Abundant Step - you can do an SLA at at levels way above where a caster has access to the spell, and is able to take the whole party with him. Great for getting behind a foe and getting the drop on him after you pay the feat tax. Know any other class with a class ability that requires you to buy a feat to use it as intended? Because without that feat, the only real use is running away.
Fast movement - yes, the monk can run fast. He can't use this mobility in combat any better than anyone else does, it doesn't stack with haste (so when that gets cast, everyone else moves as fast as you), and it's trumped by other forms of movement like flying.
The monk is an eclectic class with a great theme, but mechanically he doesn't live up to his own hype. You can have fun with a monk, but playing one can be very frustrating especially in boss-fights where you may well find yourself unable to contribute anything meaningful.
Ah.. My table hasn't come across that. We have hand wraps/brass knuckles.
Mind you, at my table, a monk is a banned class. The first point is that the DM says they are overpowered based on his experience running a campaigns with them in the past (not that I know what those reasons are). The second being that he can't see monks adventuring because they are in Monasteries.
Actually a monk with a single weapon can still flurry with that single weapon. Its the cheapest twf around I think, but monks don't have many ways to increase their static damage will will likely start out behind due to them being mad. Banning a class for fluff reasons is silly imo. Thats like saying all divine casters are too busy in church to adventure, or all druids are too busy doing druid things.
I should also say people on the boards aren't trying to mislead you into thinking monk is weak. There is no conspiracy about against the monk that where its actually balanced and we're all secretly misleading you with math into believing its a bad class. Thats just silly.
Under what circumstances?
Please, post me a build of one of your Monk fanatic's Monks.
|
Besides the general lagging in effectiveness and MAD, one of the big things hurting the monk is that it is too damn hard to make one that actually lives up to the flavor you're aiming to get out of it compared to...pretty much every other class.
Take barbarians. They're solid at the core, and you have a lot of "slack" to work with to tailor to fit your character. You can take Skill Focus: Diplomacy and not feel like you're dooming that character.
Monks though...they require far more of that damnable system mastery to make them able to keep up with the rest of the party.
The number of hoops one has to jump through to not be forced to play a STR-based beefmonk alone are too many.
And then there's the lack of viable methods to play a monk that actually lives up to their flavor as ascetics. Note "viable", as in could be played in an Adventure Path without being a millstone around the party's neck. (in other words, something that isn't the Ultimate Magic version of the Vow of Poverty)
Its the only frontliner with D8 really, Ranger, fighter, paladin, barbarian all have more HD. His AC is deteremined by 2 stats, wisdom bonus won't keep up with armor enhancements(starts out less than Medium btw, medium is 6 base). D8 with almost nothing backing it becuase again, the class is MAD. Without a good boost to hit/damage flurry of blows can easily be a flurry of misses or tickling the foe with a feather.
Its not bad to be several things. It helps the game when people can fill multiple roles I think.
The magical item is twice the cost of one weapon enhancement. The monks belt is not that amazing and is expensive, and it eats up the belt slot so no +str/con/dex. Everyone has access to those items your mentioning.
Unless you're throwing treasure at them like it's going out of style, by the time he could afford all that s%~! every other class could already have been decked out and improving beyond it. You forget, other classes can use stat boosting items as well, and there's these things called armor enhancements as well.
He's not going to be as good as a Medium Armor character unless his Wis and Dex are through the roof (+20 in each at least), at which point his Str and other stats will have suffered, making him less hard hitting and a lot less sturdy than other classes, on top of his lower HD compared to other frontline classes.
+2 Breastplate with say a 14 Dex (no stat boosting items): 20 AC, costs a little over 2000 dollars. Requires little sacrifice in other stats to pull off.
20 Wis and 20 Dex Monk is also 20 AC. ASSUMING he starts with an 18 in both (which on a 20 pt buy is doable, but difficult), that's still 8000 dollars for the belt and headband necessary to put him up there. Doing so requires him to basically dump Int and Cha and severely harms his Str and Con scores.
Same +2 Breastplate guy can be swinging a similar +2 Greatsword around for another 8000 gold.
Meanwhile your +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists costs 16000 gp. Since you dumped Str you'll probably want an Agile or Guided (wholly removed from the game I believe) AoMF meaning you can at least use your Dex to damage if you burn a Feat for Weapon Finesse, but your overall enhancement bonus is at -1 compared to others who are already using their primary stat for to-hit and damage.
Not sure where you're pulling d8's of elemental damage from. AoMF enhancements and Elemental Fist will let you pull d6s, but you need Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity before you can get it before level 12, eating 2 more of your Feats just to add a piddling amount of elemental damage. AoMF enhancements will cost you even more.
So your Monk is at 20-24k gold and 3 Feats to maybe kinda sorta match the character who's only spent around 10k gold, and you pull behind again if he ever decides to upgrade his weapon. Well, sorry, he probably wants a Str belt too, so he could snag a +2 belt for 4k gold and be on par with you. +4 Belt for going 2k over your budget. But he'll probably stick with the +2 so he can buy a bunch of other helpful stuff.
Ah, wait, I forgot. You mentioned a Monk's robe, so that's another 13k gold for a total of 33-37k, well above what the other character would even conceivably need to spend on the same sort of stuff.
Don't get me started on Heavy Armor and the classes specced to use it, or any character that uses a shield (especially in conjunction with it).
Prognosis: Your Monk is doing well because of any number of things.
Your encounters are easy.
He's a lot better at optimizing than your other players (who your encounters are balanced for).
He's got a lot more wealth than he should (GM help).
There are houserules in place that help him out (GM help)
He's built his character wrong but you don't know enough about the class or game to know otherwise (he's cheating).
+2 breastplate is 4000. +2 mithril breastplate is 8k. +2 greatsword is 8k. I don't think you have your math right with this.
Bracers of armor eat up a slot, but you need 22 wisdom to get what a breastplate will in AC.
I wouldn't say they are on par with paladins, or that paladins are that far off from Fighters and Barbarians. I'm not keen on rangers myself.
No need to resort to name calling.
Bracers of Armor is an armor bonus to keep the scale up with an armor enhancement.
if you pump your dex and wis up to 18 than you've already messed up your character. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12 (just for the extra skill points), Wis 16, Cha 7
So now you're at 15 AC without items and your to-hit and damage sucks balls all around since an Agile amulet isn't even an option any more. Good job.
By the time you snag your +2 Belt and Headband you're now at 17 AC for 8k, and the +3 Bracers to make up the difference is another 9k gold, putting you even further in the hole than what I posted up top.
Amulet +2 20k it's a high price, but all of your unarmed attacks are +2 weapons instead of having just 1 +2 weapon that can be disarmed, and I'm assuming you've never been disarmed it sucks, +2 bracers of armor is 4k
Monk has spent 24k so far.
So you're going with only +2 bracers, putting you at 19 AC (which is NOT a match for Medium armor). Your attack bonus is only at BaB+4, so currently you're sucking all around.
+2 Breastplate costs costs 4k to craft the armor that's not the market price otherwise the crafter of the magical item makes no money hence it's called "Base Price" instead of market price so your 2k dollar +2 breastplate actually costs 8k in the shop.
cost to make
Bonus squared x 1000gp (2 x 2) x 1k = 4k
average market price is cost to make x2 (4k x 2) = 8k for that +2 breast plate armor+2 Great sword he's walking around with is base price 8k
cost to make
Bonus squared x 2000k (2 x 2) x 2k = 8k
once again average market price is cost to make x2 (8k x 2) = 16k for that +2 great sword
That's not how that works.
If that's how it worked, your +2 Belt/Headband combo would be 16k as well, since the base price for it is Enhancement Bonus squared times 2000. This is not the case, fortunately for you.
Look on the crafting tables on page 550 if you don't understand how base price works. If you are selling your players for base price than you are stupid and the crafter is making no money because he doesn't understand how to make money which means you as a DM don't understand how to make money.
Except the crafting price is half of what I listed. You halve the base price for crafting. Which is why (again going back to your headband) the crafting price for the Headband is 2k, not 4k, and the regular price is not 8k.
In other words, you're doing it wrong.
The monk spent 20k on the amulet of mighty fists, and 4k on the bracers or armor totaling at 24k
Correct.
Actually no. 16k for AoMF and 4k on the Bracers.
But still, the +2 headband to get you to 18 Wis (unless we're talking level 8 here?) bumps that up to 24k again.
The fighter spent 16k on his +2 Great Sword, and 8k on his Breastplate armor totaling at 24k.
Incorrect.
The fighter spent 8k on his sword and 4k on his Breastplate for a total of 12k.
So far for the same items they paid the same price. Except all of the monks unarmed attacks became magic.
Armor and Weapons are the only section that use base price they should put market prices for them so people don't get a cheaper weapon without paying the mark up.
Armor and Weapons are not the only section that use base price. Every magic item uses base price.
If we want to bring in monks robe than we should look at any other equipment a fighter will need, because no fighter alone can survive on armor and shield.
So your Monk, with just his armor (inferior by 1) and weapons is at 24k.
My Fighter is at 12k with all of that, and he can afford to pay for his other stuff. Like a +2 Cloak of Resistance (4k), and a +2 Str belt (4k).
So he's at 20k with a lot more stuff.
Monks ACs not comparable to heavy armor ACs, and fighters are barbs are better frontline fighters, but a monk is equal to a paladin and a ranger at the front of the fight.
But he's not.
As for your Prognosis I understand you are sitting infront of your computer so you feel like being an ass, and you just want to go with the boards to many people for some odd reason say the boards said this so I'm just going to assume it's right. I already know he's not optimizing, he has an equal wealth as everyone else, there are no house rules that are helping anyone. With your prognosis I already know I know more about the game than you do, because you are a single minded and obviously refused to look at it yourself you are just pulling random numbers out so far.
I'm not pulling random numbers from anywhere. They're very calculated numbers pulled straight from the rulebooks.
We've already determined that bolded part is a mistake, as you're charging everyone else in the party double for their weapons and armor, meaning your Monk DOES effectively have more treasure (which is what I assumed was the issue from the start).
No I don't have one of his characters on me and even if I did I wouldn't post it because it's a currently played character.
Why does that make a difference?
8th level Human Fighter with Breatplate +2 Dex of 14 is 19 AC
Breastplate: 6 AC
14 Dex: +2 AC+2 Enhancement: +2 AC
Base AC: 10
Add it up and you have 20 AC, not 19.
goto page 550 in your player's handbook look at the table and tell me how much it costs to craft a +2 breastplate armor and than explain why armor and weapons are priced as base Price which on page 550 base price is the cost to create. All of the other weapons list Market Price and Cost to Create (Cost to create is also the base price on the table on page 550 if you can do the math)+2 breastplate is 4000. +2 mithril breastplate is 8k. +2 greatsword is 8k. I don't think you have your math right with this.
Bracers of armor eat up a slot, but you need 22 wisdom to get what a breastplate will in AC.
I wouldn't say they are on par with paladins, or that paladins are that far off from Fighters and Barbarians. I'm not keen on rangers myself.
No need to resort to name calling.
Double checked. Thats the price to buy them from the store. Your doubling it. Thats why your paying the same price for the AoMF as one weapon of the same enhancement instead of 2. Actually your paying more, your paying 2.5 times the price. You must've missed when they reduced the price. +2 AoMF cost 16k now.
Also, human monk with 20 wisdom just dumped 17 of his point buy into wisdom. Thats a lot, and leaves 3 to put into anything else without dumping(in a 20 point buy). You can't reach 14 dex on a 20 point buy without dumping something.
Bonus Feats are a wash since Ranger gets them too and in better allocations.
Ki Pool doesn't really do much for the Monk as-is except let them overcome DR. They already move fast enough and the extra attack is pretty good isn't worth all that much in the grand scheme because it's sucha limited resource. The Qinggong powers are nice too but I was leaving archetypes out of it since they skew things greatly.
Better touch AC depends. Is the Ranger an Archer or no?
And I've never got too much mileage out of Stunning Fist. I use it all the time but even with 18 Wis (because rolled stats are cool, yo) and now I think of it it rarely takes.
Most common Combat Maneuver build is Trip, which requires Combat Expertise, and Combat Expertise requires 13 Int.
You can get Improved Trip for free, of course, but Greater never pops up on the Bonus Feats list.
And Monks actually do make decent NPCs/Elite Mooks as Combat Maneuver builds (or my personal favorite for frustration, the Untouchable MoMS) since the things that thwart PC Monks (Increased size, multiple legs, etc.) don't apply to the enemies attacking PCs most of the time.
Because the DC is silly low for Monster Fort saves.
@Nicos: That's my bad on the Ranger Feats.
Because the "nice thing" in this case requires a trade-off of other abilities, whereas every Ranger gets Instant Enemy for free.
That's true on the Touch AC for Zen Archer, but again I wasn't comparing archetypes.
Erm... Actually I do think there should be loot on the table for the monk if he's at the table. If not on the boss he can buy it. Just becuase theres no monk boss doesn't mean there won't be monk loot in the stache either. I've seen cleric builds that use the Monk's Robe. so its not like other classes won't wear the thing.
You didn't say thats what you did earlier so how would I know thats how he got 20 Wis? How will they compare for damage then? The monk is still sacrificing a lot of his resources for wisdom, and he might still be behind depending on who and what we are comparing him to. Worse so I think he'll turn into a one trick pony trying to outdo someone a little when the other person isn't even trying.
The monk could use int maybe. A lot of Feats have combat expertise as a tax and combat expertise has a feat tax of 13 int. If he dumps int he also loses out on skillpoints which can be valuabel depending on the game.
I don't think the view of monks are tarnished. I think thats going to an exetreme. Its like claiming theres a conspiracy against fighters. Its... just a little out there and I'm not sure if you mean it.
Um...no. They don't have a wider selection.
Monk gets: Combat Maneuver Feats, some miscellaneous situationally useful Feats (Snatch Arrows), and some amazingly horrendous Feats (Medusa's Wrath and it's ilk).
Ranger Gets: Early, prerequisite-less access to Feats pretty much NECESSARY for that particular combat style (of which there are multiple to choose from), ESPECIALLY Archery.
I call that a win for Ranger.
Ranger gets to pick between 2 feats every time he gets a feat. While a monk has style, maneuver and combat choices for feats it's a pretty extended list of feats for a monk. I'd call that a win for a monk.
Monks only get to choose from a small list. Styles are only in it if they take an archetype that gives up their flurry of blows. A very dip friendly archetype too! Ranger has a wider selection if you look at how many choices he has between styles, he has a smaller one in a particular combat style. I'm not sure if I'd call that a win for the monk.
|
|
If I was playing a monk I'd dump chr into the ground it has no value to a monk. Same way as Chr has no value to Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Ranger and a Wizard. The Chr score is the first score to go because it is the least useful score out of the 6 and the easiest score to overcome in skill checks.
What about folks that want their monks to be inspiring and not complete derpatologists in social situations? And you're really screwed if you're playing iwth a GM that has it in their head that CHA dictates appearance and you wind up having to have a high enough CHA to have the aesthetics you want.
I'm playing a 12 CHA barbarian right now. He is still more than up to par.
With a monk, even just a 12 CHA and keeping the rest working properly feels like pulling teeth.
You're not lookin for CR 7-8, you're looking for CR 9-10 at 8th level. Even in Paizo APs CR = APL encounters are pretty rare in my experience, it's usually at least APL+1.
CR 9 creatures, I can't find a single one with less than +12 Fort.
The meanest I stumbled across was the Dire Crocodile at +15.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guys, in a game I ran the monk player rolled 4 18s for stats and had triple his WBL, he did pretty good, also we stopped playing before we got to level 9.
Based on that I can just assume that everyone who thinks monks have problems just don't know what they're doing.
Amulet +2 20k it's a high price, but all of your unarmed attacks are +2 weapons instead of having just 1 +2 weapon that can be disarmed, and I'm assuming you've never been disarmed it sucks, +2 bracers of armor is 4k
Monk has spent 24k so far.
Sword users can spend a pittance on a weapon cord or a locked gauntlet and laugh at the chump who attempts to disarm him.
If you're going to fret over disarming the Monk's AoMF is still vulnerable to disarm and steal combat maneuvers.
But none of the Monk's Feats are nearly as USEFUL as the Ranger's Combat Style Feats.
Every TWF-er NEEDS Improved/Greater TWF, Rend, Double Slice, etc. Just like every Archer NEEDS Point Blank/Precise/Rapid Shot.
Most of the Monk Bonus Feats are really pretty unnecessary (though nice to have on occasion), are only wanted for ONE specific kind of build (Combat Maneuvers) or just plain suck.
Also don't forget the added ones from later books, Archery has 14 Feats now.
Edit: So 5 monsters out of 60 (counting all Dragons and Elementals as 1 monster) have less than 12. Yippee for the Monk?
all of the Style feats and there extra feats
Wrong. Only the Master of Many Styles gets the Style Feats as bonuses. He also trades in Flurry of Blows and all of the other bonus Feats you mentioned in exchange for that.
and if you want to compare the two weapon ranger to a monk than a monk already gets...Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting when he flurry of blows which leaves the two weapon ranger left over with...
Double Slice
Improved Shield Bash
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Rend (well this one is good here's one I'd pick to say better)
and none of these are even remotely better than the feats I've list for the monk and the feats I was to lazy to list for the monk in Ultimate combat and ultimate magic.
1.) Double Slice, Two Weapon Rend, and Quick Draw are hand-down better than Deflect/Snatch Arrows, Dodge, or any of the really bad ones (Scorpion Style and Combat Expertise as anything but a prerequisite, for example).
2.) Ultimate Magic/Combat did not add any Bonus Feats to the Monk list.