I've been thinking of trying to run a campaign again and I started thinking I wanted to do a campaign that takes place solely on Abaddon. The background of this would be the Daemons have decided the Apocalypse needs to begin and massive rifts are opened between several planes and Abaddon and through a more fundamental corruption of the universe, all the souls of the dead are now going directly to Abaddon for harvest. The PCs would die pretty much immediately and most likely without a fight (perhaps being in the epicenter of one of these rifts... can't fight that), and from there would be lost souls on Abaddon, and what they do from there is mostly up to them (though I'll throw out options).
This is what led me to the topic questions: how should I handle PC death while they are already dead? I was wondering if this is actually addressed anywhere. I was considering having them regenerate after a day but with negatives (lowered ability scores, maybe a negative level), but that's only if someone protects them or their body isn't noticed; if they are killed by enemies and left for them, their soul is ripe for the picking.
To go with the Abaddon theme, I was thinking of using Hero Points or less powerful Hero Points (that could also be used to remove negatives from dying) that they can get by consuming other souls with the caveat that this is a terrible idea for them in the long term (ie being a Daemon and needing to constantly consume). That it made me wonder what about defeated Daemons/other outsiders? Do they have souls to be consumed or do they get oblivion as soon as they die?
Any thoughts?
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I don't know the answer to the first part, but in general outsiders have no souls. If you look at the outsider subtype description in the bestiary it states that unlike natives to the material plane, outsider's "soul" is part of his body. While death on other planes sends them to their home plane, while death on their home plane results in permanent death. The lack of a separate soul means raise dead can't work because the soul is dead too.
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There probably won't be one unified rock solid answer for this, since so much should depend on the plane and outsiders involved.
If dealing with Abaddon and daemons, actual oblivion might be the deal(which also means Abaddon is the absolute most dangerous place to run such an "escape from the underworld" scenario.
Demons, devils, angels and such, most often they get portrayed as being diminished by the experience, or being broken into their component souls(or having those souls splintered(like how one mortal soul can split into multiple dretches). "Final death" for these outsiders(typically managed by killing them on thier home plane) has often been flavored as their essense merging with their native plane. You see this on a grand scale with dead demon lords and their (seemingly) eternal imprisonment in that rift in the Abyss. It might also be possible that these essenses could be hijacked by other planes/outsiders given the right/wrong circumstances.
And then there's the nature of the planes to take into account:
Hell is eternal torment. The damned suffer fatal injury and are repurposed all the time, and Hell won't be having any escaping from that.
The Abyss recycles souls all the time. It doesn't seek to destroy souls, it seeks to twist and ruin them, unravelling and reweaving them into horrible new creations with little concern for rhyme or reason.
The Maelstrom and its proteans see souls as things to be unraveled and reforged as well. They won't seek absolute destruction but any souls that fall under their power won't be what they were when you last saw them.
Elysium's Valhalla-ish areas deserve a mention too. Those folks die all the time and get back up in the morning for more.
Regarding outsiders having souls: Yes. But the thing is, they typically are their souls. There's just no dual nature thing going on. Their flesh and spirit are one.
Keep in mind that the lack of division between flesh and soul isn't a thing for native outsiders such as tieflings and aasimar!
For other outsiders like genies and other Inner Planes folks, they have souls as well, but IIRC, it's been mentioned that their souls often travel different afterlife paths.
And even in the case of oblivion as observed from within the known multiverse, there's some uncertainty on whether that's really the case, especially given the existence of those "strange vistas" beyond even the borders of the Great Beyond.
Take all of that and throw in the fact that there are spells that can raise even dead outsiders, it raises a lot of questions worth exploring in a planar campaign.
tl;dr - It depends. ;)
What about a native outsider like Aasimars and Rakshasas? Do they have souls?
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What about a native outsider like Aasimars and Rakshasas? Do they have souls?
Yep, the've got souls separate from their flesh. Rakshasas actually have a warped reincarnation cycle built into their origins.
(and again note, regular outsiders have souls too, it's just that their souls and bodies are one in most cases)
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I'd take a look at the Petitioner. It sounds like basically what you'd be doing. Unfortunately, it states pretty directly that twice-dead creatures are gone forever. You might want to simply houserule it.
What about a native outsider like Aasimars and Rakshasas? Do they have souls?Yep, the've got souls separate from their flesh. Rakshasas actually have a warped reincarnation cycle built into their origins.
(and again note, regular outsiders have souls too, it's just that their souls and bodies are one in most cases)
Do you have a reference for aasimars? I'm about to start a campaign as an aasimar Life Oracle and my big hesitation is the whole, "One bad hit and you're done," I get for playing an outsider... (Both the GM and I are under the impression that since aasimars are listed as outsiders in the Bestiary, Raise Dead doesn't work on them.)
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What about a native outsider like Aasimars and Rakshasas? Do they have souls?Yep, the've got souls separate from their flesh. Rakshasas actually have a warped reincarnation cycle built into their origins.
(and again note, regular outsiders have souls too, it's just that their souls and bodies are one in most cases)
Do you have a reference for aasimars? I'm about to start a campaign as an aasimar Life Oracle and my big hesitation is the whole, "One bad hit and you're done," I get for playing an outsider... (Both the GM and I are under the impression that since aasimars are listed as outsiders in the Bestiary, Raise Dead doesn't work on them.)
Here ya go! :)
Here ya go! :)What about a native outsider like Aasimars and Rakshasas? Do they have souls?Yep, the've got souls separate from their flesh. Rakshasas actually have a warped reincarnation cycle built into their origins.
(and again note, regular outsiders have souls too, it's just that their souls and bodies are one in most cases)
Do you have a reference for aasimars? I'm about to start a campaign as an aasimar Life Oracle and my big hesitation is the whole, "One bad hit and you're done," I get for playing an outsider... (Both the GM and I are under the impression that since aasimars are listed as outsiders in the Bestiary, Raise Dead doesn't work on them.)
And... Mikaze hits the ball out of the park... AGAIN...
Thanks for all the info and suggestions :D
For the players I'll houserule it then, as the nature of the game (being reborn screaming from the sky into Abaddon) is going to be brutal enough. I do like the Petitioner traits though. I was thinking of giving the players some extra mechanical benefits (including maybe gestalt if everyone wanted to try it), so giving them the Abaddon traits or a dumbed down but level scaling equivalent might be worthwhile if they don't want gestalt.
For the death of mortals (including NPCs, but based on what I've read not outsiders; thinking they get devoured by Abaddon unless something makes sure it is trying to devour them as they make the killing blow) I think I am going to go with having them slowly return to "life" though with some negatives with the experience that will go away with time; permadeath will only occur if their soul is harvested while they are down, which would most likely only happen from a TPK or the rest of the party leaving the downed to their fate. I do like iLaifire's idea of DC 40 Will once per hour with a +1 bonus to the roll for every hour failed, so I'll probably incorporate that.
Along the same lines PCs will have the option of doing so to their fallen enemies to survive and can use that power to cleanse negatives from themselves or perhaps hold the energy in the form of some sort of limited Hero Point, though doing so will move them closer to losing themselves to their new hunger and becoming full fledged Daemons; negatives for that would include Will saves to keep from automatically devouring downed enemies as well as a lowered Will save in general, besides the obvious roleplay mentality shifts.
Using this as a mechanic sounds like it could be really interesting (hope the potential players agree ;p).