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I would like to add an additional suggestion: To make up for all the intense fear of lethality in 1-5, I recommend we take a more "Roleplay heavy" base for 1-5's. Adventures like Severing Ties, and The Blakros Matrimony where a lot of the adventure was RP before combat was a nice change of pace. It's something I would like to see more of in the lower tier to discourage min-maxing 1st level builds to survive.
Seconded! I don't actually care about the lethality aspect, I just really liked having such roleplay-heavy scenarios. Severing Ties might actually be my favorite overall. More like that, please!
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Whiskey: The problem is that, for a module, you have to be able to ensure that the exact same table will be there for 2 weeks in a row. That's difficult. Playing a single chapter of an AP is kinda pointless.
One man's "too difficult to do" is another man's challenge. The main point of my post was to give you options- if you chose to label them as too difficult to consider, that is your choice. I empathize with the difficulties (or challenges) you face- I face them too. Event organizers deal with a lot of adversity, let's leave it at that.
EDIT- I just saw Lady Ophelia's comments re: roleplay in season 4. I just ran Severed Ties at MegaCon and the players really enjoyed the roleplay elements, I think. Just a nod in agreement on her comment.
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Objectively for 1-5's, 3-7's, 5-9's, and 7-11's, each level character can play in:
1,2: 1-5
3,4: 1-5, 3-7
5: 1-5, 3-7, 5-9
6: 3-7, 5-9
7: 3-7, 5-9, 7-11
8,9: 5-9, 7-11
10,11: 7-11
So, the amount of types of scenarios you can play in is:
1,2: 1
3,4: 2
5: 3
6: 2
7: 3
8,9: 2
10,11:1
So, the extremes (1, 2, 10, and 11) only have one type of scenario they can play in, so there should be more of those so people can play their characters of those levels.
With the bias of more people having low levels since they start at them, there should be more also tending to the low level ones as well.
....There is no point to this post. Just thought I'd add something to it.
Developer
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I've removed a post and a reply to that post that were not related to the topic at hand but were ad hominem attacks on other posters that have no place on these messageboards.
We welcome feedback from all participants in the campaign, but uncivil behavior will not be tolerated, and is the surest way to end a discussion that could otherwise help us to steer the campaign in a direction that would benefit both Paizo and the thousands of players who play Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you can't participate in the discussion without attacking other posters, you aren't welcome to post here.
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It is strange to see anyone clamoring for more 1-5 scenarios, as there are so many methods of getting out of Tier 1-2 and into 3-7. First Steps is half the journey right there.
The problem here is that any additional 1-5 has to be matched by dropping a scenario from another Tier. If more 1-5s were to occur, which Tier should be taken away from?
The obvious target is 7-11. "New players can't play them!" "No one plays those anyways!" Right?
Well... perhaps the campaign could just get rid of 7-11 altogether? That would fund plenty more 1-5s, as many as doubling their number. There could be a 1-5 every month if 7-11 weren't there at all, right?
Would that be enough?
If it is true that 7-11s don't get played very often, I think the real question this campaign needs to ask itself is why. Why are there players with many low-levels PCs but no 10-11 ones? Why do players leave before they make 7th?
-Matt
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Considering the lethality of the new scenarios (not a good thing at tier 1-5 imo) and the number of new players joining PFS, it's a no brainer to have more tier 1-5 scenarios.
There's definitely no need for 8 new tier 7-11 per season. My highest level PC is only 5 scenarios away from level 12. When he retires, he will have played 6 tier 7-11 scenarios only. That's not even the amount of tier 7-11 produced in season 4. I think tier 5-9 is more inclusive (there are more lower level PCs) which is why tier 5-9 was used more than tier 7-11 at conventions.
To me it makes sense to put the most effort into work where your customers receive the most benefit, which is tier 1-5. I find it hard to believe that tier 7-11 scenarios are being played as much as tier 1-5. Tier 1-5 scenarios get 15+ reviews and tier 7-11 scenarios get maybe 5 reviews. For example, compare "We Be Goblins" (35 reviews) to any tier 7-11 scenario in season 2 (1 review). They just aren't getting the same play time.
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There are a lot of scenarios out there that are simply not challenging for large tables of players with extra resources, and many of them don't have much in the way of plot, either. (Not saying that's the case with Augustana or AOTKOTI, in fact, I like their plots. I'm referring more to some of the older dungeon crawl scenarios.) These scenarios are fine in moderation, but when you keep running easy, quick things, it makes players lazy and unchallenged.
This problem you mention is a problem at all Tiers. Especially so at 7-11, in fact. There has been just so much power-creep in Pathfinder, and so much permissiveness by the campaign staff, that the scenarios just aren't keeping up. I would even say that this problem is even worse at 7-11, where the spread of PC capability is much larger than at 1-5, to the point where a party of moderately-capable 10-11 PCs just crush everything that's out there. Meanwhile, not only are the opponents woefully under-equipped, but 7-11 is stuck writing for the pregens instead of actual PCs, for fear of "escalating the arms race."* Even a single quite-capable PC can just turn 10-11 on its head.
As an example, it's not difficult to achieve a 30+ AC at 10-11, especially when the party includes casters, yet there are very few 10-11 opponents who can reliably hit a mid-30s AC. Meanwhile, the PCs' opponents rarely have mid-30s ACs to match PC attack bonuses in the +20s.
So, there is a quality issue at 1-5. It's even more pronounced at 7-11.
Personally, what I would really like to see are either high-quality 7-11s that can actually deal with actual 7-11 PCs, or for 7-11 to be dropped altogether. Perhaps some more story-based scenarios with decision opportunities, beyond just Red Harvest?
Bonekeep is such a bad idea. All it does is encourage players to make even more efficient killing machines, thus reducing the fun level of every other scenario out there. In addition, any player who buys into Bonekeep's pressure for combat-optimization is not only hurting his own fun, but his table-mates'.
-Matt
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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It is strange to see anyone clamoring for more 1-5 scenarios, as there are so many methods of getting out of Tier 1-2 and into 3-7. First Steps is half the journey right there.
The problem here is that any additional 1-5 has to be matched by dropping a scenario from another Tier. If more 1-5s were to occur, which Tier should be taken away from?
The obvious target is 7-11. "New players can't play them!" "No one plays those anyways!" Right?
Well... perhaps the campaign could just get rid of 7-11 altogether? That would fund plenty more 1-5s, as many as doubling their number. There could be a 1-5 every month if 7-11 weren't there at all, right?
Would that be enough?
If it is true that 7-11s don't get played very often, I think the real question this campaign needs to ask itself is why. Why are there players with many low-levels PCs but no 10-11 ones? Why do players leave before they make 7th?
-Matt
People play 7-11s, and I'm not saying that there should be none of them. As for why people leave before that point, assuming gaming once weekly, it takes 4 1/2 months to get to level 7. That's only if you can always find a game in tier, don't start a second character, don't die permanently and don't miss a single week. That's a pretty good stretch of time for a lot of people, especially because not everybody will want to only play their first character without starting a second.
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To me it makes sense to put the most effort into work where your customers receive the most benefit, which is tier 1-5. I find it hard to believe that tier 7-11 scenarios are being played as much as tier 1-5. Tier 1-5 scenarios get 15+ reviews and tier 7-11 scenarios get maybe 5 reviews. For example, compare "We Be Goblins" (35 reviews) to any tier 7-11 scenario in season 2 (1 review). They just aren't getting the same play time.
Like nosig, you lost me here.
You are comparing a module to a scenario. A FREE RPG day module to a PAID scenario. A module where currently is the ONLY way the general PFS crowd can play a goblin PC.
Of course they aren't getting the same play time. But it's apples and oranges, man.
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Emphasis below is mine to pinpoint the things I contend with...
Considering the lethality of the new scenarios (not a good thing at tier 1-5 imo) and the number of new players joining PFS, it's a no brainer to have more tier 1-5 scenarios.
New players to PFS have a *ton* of low tier scenarios to choose from going all the way back to season zero. I think this is more a sore-spot for veteran players who have played a lot and need fresh low tier fodder.
There's definitely no need for 8 new tier 7-11 per season. My highest level PC is only 5 scenarios away from level 12. When he retires, he will have played 6 tier 7-11 scenarios only. That's not even the amount of tier 7-11 produced in season 4. I think tier 5-9 is more inclusive (there are more lower level PCs) which is why tier 5-9 was used more than tier 7-11 at conventions.
You would be surprised at the number of people who want to play at that level... and many of the people I know who are playing at that level have dropped to slow progression because they like playing at that level and prefer it. While that tier may not work for you (since your character is only five scenarios out from retirement), it could work very well for others.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Why are there players with many low-levels PCs but no 10-11 ones? Why do players leave before they make 7th?
Just speaking for myself, I haven't "left", but I have far more low-level PCs than high-level PCs. The reasons are many:
My first PC got to level 2.1 before I realized I'd made an error and he was illegal. It seemed more fun to just start over than to try and fix him.
My second PC started to feel rather linear (plus some other issues), so eventually I started trying to make a more well-rounded PC. It took me a few iterations, a couple of first-level rebuilds, and a couple of now-abandoned 3rd-level PCs before I finally got what I was looking for with my Eldritch Knight and my Cleric.
Having only started playing Pathfinder less than 2 years ago, there are entire Core classes I still haven't explored, let alone all the wacky concepts I could try with obscure combinations of archetypes and multiclassing. I haven't even built a monk or a "normal" caster yet!
My wife is now wanting to coordinate a pair of new PCs to be played exclusively with each other, as well.
I currently have 9 registered PC slots. One of them is at 10.2, one is (semi?) permanently shelved at 9.1, another just hit 7.0, and the other 6 are all 3rd level or lower.
I don't think it has anything to do with people "leaving before they hit 7th".
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Posts were made while I was computing, so here's my thought: A lack of 1-5s is bad for both old and new players. Why? Because it prevents mingling. If the new players are stuck in the ghetto of scenarios that everybody's played before, it prevents those players from playing together. It makes it harder for older players to find a table. It's just generally not good for anybody. The scenario distribution should look like a pyramid, not like a column.
Ghetto?
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You are comparing a module to a scenario. A FREE RPG day module to a PAID scenario. A module where currently is the ONLY way the general PFS crowd can play a goblin PC.
If you think there is bias (because of free RPG day), then compare Mists of Mwangi (28 reviews) or even Severing Ties (19 reviews) to several tier 7-11 that have only 1 review. Or any tier 1-5 scenario (which typically has 15+ reviews).
The point is that people review what they've played and the low tiers are played much more than the high tiers.
Look at Gencon, compare the number of high level tables run compared to low. Or how fast tier 1-5 fills up comparatively.
There have been some arguments that there are lots of old tier 1-5 scenarios that can be played, but isn't the same true about old tier 7-11 scenarios, especially in seasons 1-2? Why can't players play old tier 7-11 scenarios? Old tier 1-5 gets played a lot, even season 0, which are badly in need of an update.
Yes seasons 3 upper tier scenarios seemed to get played more than season 1 or 2. Which indicates to me that maybe season 0/1 tier 7-11 should be used a little more, by producing less new tier 7-11 scenarios.
Comparing the reviews in season 4, the tier 7-11 scenarios have an average of 5.5 reviews and the tier 1-5 scenarios have between 15+ reviews. If that same proportion were used to produce season 5 scenarios, we'd have 12 tier 1-5 scenarios and 4 tier 7-11 scenarios.
I'm not saying eliminate tier 7-11 scenarios, just a lower proportion seems to make sense to me.
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I'm not saying eliminate tier 7-11 scenarios, just a lower proportion seems to make sense to me.
I actually don't have a dog in this fight. My characters are currently 13,11,9,7,7,5,4,2,2 so I can use scenarios in ANY subtier! I'd rather play than not, but as a personal preference I hate levels 1-2 as well. That doesn't mean I hate Tier 1-5 scenarios. Far from it. But I try to GM them instead of play :D
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Honestly, I've talked a lot more about rerunning level 1 modules and First Steps than I've seen it done in practice. It's a nice touch, but for it to be useful, you have to *know* you are having a new player at a particular session, and have that be their first session. That's only particularly useful at conventions or membership drives.
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I won't speak to anyone but myself, but playing first steps over and over can be boring. (Running them is a different story, one of the perks of re-running them is I get better every time I run 'em)
Ok, now there is something I could get behind... brand new "First Steps" scenarios for the next season!
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In a tangentially related train of thought, sanctioned modules would be a lot more appealing to many players if they gave 4.5 prestige instead of 4. This is in line with the stated expectation of 75% of the possible prestige on an average character and there is precedence for this based on the slow track .5 prestige if you fail the faction mission policy.
It seems minor, I know, but it's frustrating to me that sanctioned modules are the equivalent of 2 failed faction missions in a level. I do not believe it is reasonable to go to 5 or higher prestige without putting disproportionate demand on modules.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Just stepping in to chime in on First Steps.
1 - Matthew Morris is correct. Most players would rather not have to play through those over and over. It becomes tedious. Additionally, PFS has long fostered a "don't replay scenarios" environment. Most players in my area have taken this to heart and don't replay even those things they *could* replay.
2 - They're a series. Any time part of a series is offered players experience a "barrier" to play. They either feel the need to continue to play the series (if part 1 is offered) and won't sing up unless they think they can commit to parts 2 and 3; or they don't want to play parts 2 or 3 if they have not played one of the early parts.
3 - The "no faction, yet" concept confuses too many players and GMs. Yes, I talk my way through it every time. Yes, I tell them to just pick a faction and we'll roll with it. I shouldn't have to do either of these things.
4 - If Season 4 ends with the elimination of two factions, as has been said all year, then they will be obsolete.
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It is strange to see anyone clamoring for more 1-5 scenarios, as there are so many methods of getting out of Tier 1-2 and into 3-7. First Steps is half the journey right there.
Do you really play the First Steps series every time you start a new character? I believe that if I did that I would be so bored that I would slip into a coma after the warehouse in FS1. Yeah, re-running them can be fun, but I can't necessarily find three+ newbies with 12 hours to kill every time I want to start a new character.
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I'd really like to see the creation of 1-3 tier of games, and then more 3-7 games. The power level between 1 and 5 is far to large to be having people play in the same game.
I really hate running or playing 1-5 tables with 4 level ones and then a level 4 or 5 or bringing a level 1 to a 4-5 fest. Unless its a very role play heavy scenario, the level 5 just walks around and one shots everything, with no risk and the rest of the table watches the one guy be overpowered and they hardly effect the combat outcome.
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Ironically, I'm playing through first steps for the first time right now, and MY problem is getting the local PFS table to commit to playing!
(Before anyone assumes something negative about my local PFS group, they're trying to go through a campaign right now and decided to use first steps to work on new characters when the GM couldn't make it. It just so happened that I'd started to attend the group right as this decision was made.)
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It is strange to see anyone clamoring for more 1-5 scenarios, as there are so many methods of getting out of Tier 1-2 and into 3-7. First Steps is half the journey right there.
The problem here is that any additional 1-5 has to be matched by dropping a scenario from another Tier. If more 1-5s were to occur, which Tier should be taken away from?
Simple answer. They don't need to be taken from anywhere. You can return the 3-7 scenarios to the previous 1-7 format. That would, under the current circumstances provide twelve 'low' scenarios a season rather then the current six.
I'm kinda surprised this option has not been suggested here yet.
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Developer
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Simple answer. They don't need to be taken from anywhere. You can return the 3-7 scenarios to the previous 1-7 format. That would, under the current circumstances provide twelve 'low' scenarios a season rather then the current six.
Tier 1–7 was retired for many, many reasons and is not something we're considering bringing back. The sorts of stories that are appropriate for 1st-level characters are generally not appropriate for 7th-level PCs, and developing them to be so is a huge burdon on both the campaign's authors and development staff.
We have a number of solutions to several of the issues raised in this thread, but to date, we don't have any that we can discuss publicly. When the time is right, however, folks on these boards and the weekly Paizo Blog will be the first to hear about them.
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Another grumpy thought.
If there is a significant uptick in the number of PC deaths in the newer Scenarios (which would seem to correlate, to some degree, with lack of objective mission success), perhaps there should be an effort made for the scenarios to be written in such a way that there is not just the 'party success' scripted ending. While I know PFS will never go the LA route (and have endings A-J depending on character actions and mission success), it would be nice to see at least some script for when the party does not accomplish its goal.
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Well you can always play the level 1 only events. First steps, we be goblins and etc.
You can play them over and over. OR DM them over and over. I think we be goblins is a great intro for new players.
Edit-The fatality I think makes PFS better. The fact you could die makes the adventures worth playing. While if you want an easier adventure you can play the earlier seasons. I am all for season 5 being harder or as hard. Since you can always play the older seasons.
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In the games we run (online - mostly Australian/American mix of players), we tend to have players (or characters) who will stick around up until about level 4 or 5 and then decide not to play PFS anymore, or switch to a new character, or both - and they just never get characters beyond that point.
It forces the older players to roll up new characters - and we need new 1-5s to do that, we are starting to run a bit low on them, in every season. It'll still take some time before the regulars run out, but we're getting there.
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Edit-The fatality I think makes PFS better. The fact you could die makes the adventures worth playing. While if you want an easier adventure you can play the earlier seasons. I am all for season 5 being harder or as hard. Since you can always play the older seasons.
*Puzzled look*
Forgive me for asking a "new to PFS" question, but I get a choice about that? (Not sarcasm! Honest puzzlement.)
I assumed that I'd have the opportunity to play whatever scenarios are being presented. But at least in my town, that equals out to "one." If I were at a convention or a more popular place, I'm sure there would be more modules available. But as is, the only 'choice' I have is whether I want to show up at the game shop and play whatever module they've chosen.
Granted, I'm sure I'll get a chance to influence the decision anytime someone asks what the group should play next week, but only as a single voice in a group of 4-7. And the newest voice, at that.
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Edit-The fatality I think makes PFS better. The fact you could die makes the adventures worth playing. While if you want an easier adventure you can play the earlier seasons. I am all for season 5 being harder or as hard. Since you can always play the older seasons.*Puzzled look*
Forgive me for asking a "new to PFS" question, but I get a choice about that? (Not sarcasm! Honest puzzlement.)
I assumed that I'd have the opportunity to play whatever scenarios are being presented. But at least in my town, that equals out to "one." If I were at a convention or a more popular place, I'm sure there would be more modules available. But as is, the only 'choice' I have is whether I want to show up at the game shop and play whatever module they've chosen.
Granted, I'm sure I'll get a chance to influence the decision anytime someone asks what the group should play next week, but only as a single voice in a group of 4-7. And the newest voice, at that.
You can setup your own events. You are not enslaved to what the people around you setup. If you get the people you could play PFS in your house everything with the same 4 people.
Honestly me as a nobody invite people I trust into my own home to have private games with them. If you wanted to run an old scenario you just need 3 other people to play with you and it is legal. If your one option is something you do not like you can bring something else and if you can get the people it will work.
edit- you can recruit your other friends to start playing and bring new people to your adventure.
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Edit-The fatality I think makes PFS better. The fact you could die makes the adventures worth playing. While if you want an easier adventure you can play the earlier seasons. I am all for season 5 being harder or as hard. Since you can always play the older seasons.*Puzzled look*
Forgive me for asking a "new to PFS" question, but I get a choice about that? (Not sarcasm! Honest puzzlement.)
I assumed that I'd have the opportunity to play whatever scenarios are being presented. But at least in my town, that equals out to "one." If I were at a convention or a more popular place, I'm sure there would be more modules available. But as is, the only 'choice' I have is whether I want to show up at the game shop and play whatever module they've chosen.
Granted, I'm sure I'll get a chance to influence the decision anytime someone asks what the group should play next week, but only as a single voice in a group of 4-7. And the newest voice, at that.
You can setup your own events. You are not enslaved to what the people around you setup. If you get the people you could play PFS in your house everything with the same 4 people.
Honestly me as a nobody invite people I trust into my own home to have private games with them. If you wanted to run an old scenario you just need 3 other people to play with you and it is legal. If your one option is something you do not like you can bring something else and if you can get the people it will work.
edit- you can recruit your other friends to start playing and bring new people to your adventure.
What Finlander says. I GM a PFS game at my house for a group of friends once a month. Costs me less than a Starbucks coffee, entertains the wife + 5 (sometimes 6) others for four+ hours. Add in the fact that the others bring snacks, drinks.... This group hasn't played a season 4 scenario yet -- and the only season 3 scenarios they've played were 1st steps!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It is strange to see anyone clamoring for more 1-5 scenarios, as there are so many methods of getting out of Tier 1-2 and into 3-7. First Steps is half the journey right there.Do you really play the First Steps series every time you start a new character? I believe that if I did that I would be so bored that I would slip into a coma after the warehouse in FS1. Yeah, re-running them can be fun, but I can't necessarily find three+ newbies with 12 hours to kill every time I want to start a new character.
I carry a copy of "In Service to Lore" every time I plan to play. We have walk ins a lot, so it's good to have someone willing to step up and run it for the newbies.
But... This mean instead of advancing my current PC, I now have a level 1 PC with one scenario under his belt. If we have two newbies, it also means at least one other player is going to replay first steps... and have a new pc with one scenario.
Now I could do that with any of the replayable first level scenarios. But a) I can't do it with non-replayable scenarios (unless we want to penalize the veteran even more for 'taking one for the team') and b) it still doesn't solve the issue of the veteran player playing a brand new PC to help the newbies.
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@Mystically Inclined: +1 to starting a home-game. My wife and I experienced PFS for the first time at DragonCon 2010 but it didn't take too long for us to decide that PFS Organized Play would be a great format for home games... we host public games and sometimes recruit players to play in our home. We still play at cons also, that is the beauty of the game... portability. Cultivating a group you feel comfortable with can be hard work, but it is totally worth it... try to get at least two people who are willing to GM and you will be all set.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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To get this back on track a bit, let's take a look at the "Top Sellers" list for the 4 previous seasons. This list gives us 10 scenarios that are the most-sold overall in each completed season. Let's take a look at what percentage of the ten top sellers in each season are open to level 1s:
Season 3: 8/10 (The two that are not are 3-7s.)
Season 2: 8/10 (The two that are not are the two Eyes of the Ten scenarios from this season.)
Season 1: 7/10 (The three that are not are the two Eyes of the Ten scenarios from this season and one 7-11.)
Season 0: 9/10 (The one that is not is a 7-11.)
We do not yet have sales statistics publicly available for Season 4, but we can see the current overall scenario sales statistics. 3/4 of the Tier 1-5 scenarios in Season 4 are in it, and the one that isn't is 4-01, Rise of the Goblin Guild. It likely is no longer on the list because there have been more recent sales of newer scenarios. (Also, for some reason, this list includes a few Adventure Path segments, which skews the data.)
In light of this, it appears as if the overwhelming majority of sold scenarios are Tier 1-5. Of the 28 Tier 1-5 scenarios released in Seasons 0-3, 24 appear on the Top 10 list. This campaign is in desperate need of a disproportionate number of Tier 1 scenarios if it is to advance - the numbers clearly show that they are bought and played far, far more often than the higher leveled scenarios.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Sorry, I made some math mistakes. There are actually 42 published 1-5s or 1-7s, 24 of which are in the top 10 list. The ones that are not as follows:
Black Waters
Slave Pits of Absalom
The Prince of Augustana
Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible
The Devil We Know II-IV
The Beggar's Pearl
The Citadel of Flame
The Pallid Plague
Shadows' Last Stand I-II
Tide of Twilight
Note that there were more tier 1-5 or 1-7 in Seasons 0 and 1, which is when most of these scenarios were printed. In newer seasons, 2 and 3, only 3 scenarios are not in the top 10.