Goblin Squad Member
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I know this has been discussed before, but I want to create a new thread with ideas based on current information. This community is very prone to forming ideas and not changing them with the new announcements.
I do not want the game to display everyone character name, you should have to do a /greet and pick and choose what a person can see. Then you can set a custom nameplate that will show when you character can determine their identity.
I think it is very important to have a way to hide your identity. There should be collection of skills tied into recognizing people and identifying things about someone. Here's a few ideas: 'Recognition', 'Identification', 'Body language',and 'Memory'. each can have a few advanced skills to refine certain aspects.
Memory determines how many people you can remember, I don't know what the max should be but the idea is that you can only have information on so many people(and possibly locations and items if GW wants to go super complex) in your memory, and new memories diminish older ones. The more you interact with someone the higher they remain in your current memory. The higher a person is in your memory the easier it is to recognize them, but the more memory they take up. People in your lower memory aren't easy to recognize, but when you do recognize them you get more information than if you just met someone.
Journals can be used to record current memories, but are volatile inventory and must be threaded. When you read a journal entry it brings back the desired memory.
Identification determines how munch you can learn about someone by looking at them. a basic character(minus any racial bonuses) /identify a person and get back their height weight and race, while more advanced trained characters may get information on what they are carrying(on the outside, swords, daggers, jewelry) and maybe attribute scores to see what kind of skills they are focusing(tied into the change in appearance Ryan has talked about)
Recognition ties in with memory to strengthen the ability to recognize people in your memory.
Body Language determines how well you can tell if someone is lying, when you formally meet a player you choose what information you want to share, and can modify what you share to create lies. If you see someone told you a lie, you can call them out, or make a note that they lied to you.
Deception determines how well you can lie. The effectiveness of this ability is increased by your Body Language skill. The idea being that if you know what not to do, you are a better liar.
I want players to be able to hide from their friends. There should be things like masks and cloaks that give you 100% disguise, and there should be abilities to unmask players, as well as masks that strap on tightly(same logic as a sword chained to your gauntlet). If you kill a player(or just see the corpse) you can see their face, and if you see them again, you will recognize them.
Organizations can have insignia that characters can turn on to overtly show their relationship so people can tell who is in what organization, and the insignia can be another thing you put in your memory. And these insignia can be see either by talking to a player, or seeing it posted somewhere in-game.
~just some semi-organized ideas
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not showing your nameplate automatically would also allow the use of disguises (and using disguises would, of course be a trained skill that took some significant time to master).
As a side note, disguises would also be a tool to be used by actors when it becomes practical to add acting to the list of skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see why it would take a lot of training to disguise your self. Something like a hooded robe with a black screen would hide your face. I can see makeup/prosthetic based disguises take a long time to master, I could work like temporary version of SWG's Image Designer. There is also magical disguise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For most player that may be true, but I think you'll be able to recognize my character regardless of what outfit he is wearing. How many bald, shaven dwarves do you really expect to see in game?
If my purely anecdotal history is any indication, more than one. I really think nameplates are a necessary evil. If they break immersion for you, turn them off on your display. If you're an RPer and concerned people will metagame knowing your name, here's a clue. They will metagame something regardless. You cannot stop that. There is no need to invent complex mechanics to enforce RP (and I say this as an avid RPer).
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for a disguise skill. Here's how I would set it up to work:
Based on your ranks of the disguise skill, you can keep X prepared disguises, which can be changed at any time. (It may or may not be a quick process, keep reading). When you open up one of your disguise slots, the first thing you're asked to do is pick a name. This name would follow all the standard rules for naming a new character, and then name will be reserved to your account/character just like you had created a character for it. You would then be taken to a variation of the new character physical appearance window, where you would design the appearance of your new character. There should be a meter of some sort reflecting the complexity of your changes. More complexity means it would be easier for them to recognize you're disguised, but harder for them to tell who you actually are under all that makeup.
Now, when you go to put on the disguise, the complexity of it determines how long that takes, from a few seconds for a very simple disguise (a bit of talc to make you paler, and letting your hair loose to hide your missing ear, for example) to a minute or more for exceptionally complex disguises (dye your hair, apply facial/ear/tusk prosthetics and makeup, adjust your height and build and gender to disguise yourself as a female half-orc). Now you're running around with your new appearance, and instead of your name reading "Jeff Goldsmith" you now read "Olga Orclover"
When you run into someone, a Perception v Disguise check is made to determine if they can tell you're in a disguise. If this check is successful, they get a little alert, and your name (for them) changes to "Olga Orclover (Disguised)" and the system makes a second check to see if they can recognize you under the disguise. If it's successful, your name would instead read "Olga Orclover (Jeff Goldsmith)".
Now, this won't allow you to impersonate specific PCs or NPCs, which I think is necessary to avoid all manner of dickbaggetry (Intentionally getting another player reported, for example). Other players can learn your disguise for what it is by interacting with you and piercing it, and they can share that information. At which point, it's time for a new disguise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now, when you go to put on the disguise, the complexity of it determines how long that takes, from a few seconds for a very simple disguise (a bit of talc to make you paler, and letting your hair loose to hide your missing ear, for example) to a minute or more for exceptionally complex disguises (dye your hair, apply facial/ear/tusk prosthetics and makeup, adjust your height and build and gender to disguise yourself as a female half-orc). Now you're running around with your new appearance, and instead of your name reading "Jeff Goldsmith" you now read "Olga Orclover"
When you run into someone, a Perception v Disguise check is made to determine if they can tell you're in a disguise. If this check is successful, they get a little alert, and your name (for them) changes to "Olga Orclover (Disguised)" and the system makes a second check to see if they can recognize you under the disguise. If it's successful, your name would instead read "Olga Orclover (Jeff Goldsmith)".
Now, this won't allow you to impersonate specific PCs or NPCs, which I think is necessary to avoid all manner of dickbaggetry (Intentionally getting another player reported, for example). Other players can learn your disguise for what it is by interacting with you and piercing it, and they can share that information. At which point, it's time for a new disguise.
This is a good idea, but players shouldn't be able to set their alias, or they will be able to choose a name very similar to an existing PC. If you have a disguise nameplate, it should be a random name generated by the game using the same generator someone would use at creation if they hit random.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a good idea, but players shouldn't be able to set their alias, or they will be able to choose a name very similar to an existing PC. If you have a disguise nameplate, it should be a random name generated by the game using the same generator someone would use at creation if they hit random.
I thought about that, but they could achieve the same thing by rolling up a new character as well. Yes, the character would be behind skill-wise, but they don't need to be maxed out to cause trouble, just good enough for whatever the person's trying to do, which isn't that hard to achieve anyway. You don't need to be uber to go roll newbies leaving the starter towns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it's a good idea to have skills that control how many characters you can remember. I think that is a case of "X" would be Cool ... becomes Nobody does "X".
I would really like to see a system where the nameplate you saw over another player character's head showed "a stranger" unless you recognized them. Whether or not you recognize them should be purely a function of: 1) how well you know them; and 2) how well-disguised they are.
It strikes me that both of these systems are inherently the kinds of systems that could easily be expanded upon later.
I also think it's important to allow non-unique names, and allow each character to define their own nicknames for the other player characters they know. This would create some complexities around first contact, but I believe the end result would be well worth it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Very through and interesting read, Valkenr. Thanks for posting this.
I think this idea would be great to have in a game, and I can only hope that GW decides it's worth the time and risk to put it in their game.
I think the physically-in-your-inventory journal idea is interesting, but I can imagine it being annoying for me to have to flip through it when I want to 'remember' information about a character that I, the player, already remember or have a hunch about.
I humbly suggest another system, which could be used to supplement or to replace the journal, in which a player can 'lock' characters in his/her character's memory, such that they will not fade away until they fall of the list. We could perhaps limit the number of locks to less than the total number we can have 'in memory' via the Memory skill. We could set the limit to be proportional to the total, we could tie it to the Memory skill, or we could use/create another skill for this effect.
I think this is important as it makes sense to have characters with 'that face that I will never forget' for somebody that has wronged you greatly (an assassin, a bandit, etc) or has otherwise become your character's 'nemesis.' It also makes sense from the standpoint of keeping people that you are friends with in your current memory so your character can continue to 'know' them.
I love the idea of needing to recognize non-allies by their appearances, though it might become overly easy to "game" that--just go get a haircut.
Even with that, though, people will hopefully have distinct gear (especially if armor appearances are diverse) and might be identified just by that much. Eye/skin color would also be a subtle indicator. And that's realistic--unchangeable features are what people often have to use to track somebody down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see why it would take a lot of training to disguise your self. Something like a hooded robe with a black screen would hide your face. I can see makeup/prosthetic based disguises take a long time to master, I could work like temporary version of SWG's Image Designer. There is also magical disguise.
Theoretical that's true. But using your model, everyone can use a mace, all they have to do is change weapons.
Make using a disguise a skill based operation...you could be Pistachio Disguisey and don all sorts of fun and sneaky disguises when you want to enter or exit a place anonymously. Maybe you want to enter Fort Inevitable and are wanted by The Order of the Pike. Think you’re gonna just walk by a Piker and not get nabbed? You might with a good disguise!
Or you are a known thief and want to hide out but are being pursued…put on a disguise as a freelance soldier and offer to join a merchant caravan as an escort.
Maybe you are on a PvE mission that requires you sneak into a brothel….become a woman…no problem! Aunt Tony could pull that off now! (Might need a nice wig though!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like an option (you can turn it off if you like) to have your name be a special color until the first time you die. I enjoy playing "permadeath" and it would be a fun challenge to see how long I could go...
Heh.. well I would say by the plans for the game, unless you plan to be a crafter who never leaves high sec, that time would be at best measured in hours. Actually I remember either ryan or vic saying something along the lines of considering making dying once a forced part of training, just so new players can get over it quickly and get on with the game.
Not that there is much to object to of it as a game mechanic, it wouldn't break anything, it would just wouldn't see much use, and honestly in the handful of cases that someone actually made a big deal of having a death virgin nameplate, there would likely be a group of players willing to make the sacrifices required for a suicide kill in high sec (IE multiple characters attacking the victim, all involved would be also killed by the NPCs, but simply consider their losses worth it just to strip someones ego).
As far as if GW should do it... well it sounds like not much work, and no real drawbacks beyond being a mechanic of very little benefit, and possibly giving people a very inaccurate first impression (Namely the concept of a permadeath label, is that it implies that not dying is intended to be possible, rather than an extremely rare exception), but the real issue is, even at a tiny amount of resources used, will more than .01% of the population even consider it a notable feature?
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Goblin Squad Member
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While these are very interesting ideas allow me to play devil's advocate.
Character's having a single, obvious, unalterable identity is absolutely critical to holding them accountable for their actions. It is already very hard to foster a good community in an online game and giving characters a high degree of anonymity removes the communities best, possibly only, tool for doing so.
In a "world" where death is at most a temporary setback the only lasting consequences are social ones. If you cannot tell who the griefers, liars, and cheats are it becomes impossible to do anything about them.
The "system" will always know who those people are and they can be tracked by the system if their offenses are grevious enough. But it just makes sense for Disguise to be a trainable skill just like any other skill. Maybe if they are supremely skilled they could even make their current flag not show (unless "Assassin", "Heinous", or "Attacker" actually have the stink of evil on them).
Hey, a good disguise also means Dudley DoRight could disguise himself as a Necromancer and sneak into Zombietown to kill the Heinous Zombie-Summoning SuperNecroZombieGuy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they don't show nameplates, all it takes to create a disguise is changing clothes. Not even hiding your face, just putting on a blue shirt instead of a brown one. You (as a player) will not be able to recognize people by their faces.
The player doesn't do the recognizing, the game does. It does the skill checks, and if your character should recognize someone, their nameplate appears.
So if you are in a bar, and see a bunch of wanted posters, there is a chance you will recognize the people on those posters if you run into them in the wild.
@Nihimon
The memory system would need some good testing, the average player wouldn't need to use it, or at most only train the first few skills. It is mainly for people who want to make lots of connections, or 'secret service' type guards that are built to be hyper vigilant and need to dozens of 'wanted' faces committed to memory. The memory skill for most would be a gauge of how well you know them, the higher your memory skill and the more you interact with somebody, the harder it is for them to hide from you.
Hey, a good disguise also means Dudley DoRight could disguise himself as a Necromancer and sneak into Zombietown to kill the Heinous Zombie-Summoning SuperNecroZombieGuy.
Didn't you see that episode? Dudley Do-Right did wear Snidely's clothes for a while, and they made him evil. Clothes make the man!
The tricky bit about disguises is that Ryan has mentioned hiding things from only certain players is very hard to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valin Alistar, with respect to your example about Bob intentionally griefing new players, there are a number of considerations:
1. The devs/mods can get involved, and they will definitely know who he is.
2. The player community can set up honeytraps for Bob, and deal with him directly.
3. The player community that is genuinely interested in helping new players can explain what Bob is doing, and give new players the information they need to avoid being victimized.
By the way, I'm pretty sure chat will still show the player's name. Just saying. I don't think we could justify that big an abnormality. So Bob will get caught pretty quick.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the way, I'm pretty sure chat will still show the player's name. Just saying. I don't think we could justify that big an abnormality. So Bob will get caught pretty quick.
Nonspatial chat could, perhaps, but local channels would have to show the disguised name or there'd be no point in being disguised.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I dont like the idea of having to manage my 'memory'. Not only will it run into trouble regarding how many 'active connections' you can maintain, but theres a fine line between realism and unnecessary detail. This is similar to the discussion on eating/drinking.
Im all for tools and consequences. Ultimately though im here to adventure and craft a story. If I wanted to micromanage eating, drinking, 'going potty' and every other minute detail, id be playing the Sims, not PFRPF or PFO.
As far as the disguise ability, Im all for having disguises in game. Id much rather the following:
1. Name is autoset by the server and is reflected in the 'floaty text' and chat channels. Having it autoset avoids any naming issues as well as any issues of huge amounts of reserved names that arent used much (if at all). This name would act as an overlay identifer, so all actions and reports still get tied, transparently, to the 'actual' character.
2. I dont see a need for a 'stranger' identifier. I dont know how much memory or CPU power it would take to include that. However, considering that it would have to run a check on every person you see to check if youve met them before or not, I expect that it would introduce added processing complexity that wouldnt yield much in the way of returns. I could be wrong, but Im not sold on the cost/benefit analysis of it.
3. Something that hasnt been discussed so far is what about blowing someones cover? Should it be doable? How would it be done for PCs and/or NPCs?
I do like the idea of having a journal that you can log wanted posters and the like. Instead of immediately knowing that someone is wanted, you would have had to visit a sheriffs office or notice board, seen the posters and logged them. If you meet a person in the wild, you can then identify that they are wanted (whether automatic or via skill check).