But they don't give Skill Ranks. It causes a "you are able to do many things but none of them reliably or well" situation.
And we aren't just talking about Fighters.
Also:
@kyrt: 3.X had some classes that gave 3, 5, and 7 Skill Points per Level. Though they were usually rare and tended to have a lot of Cross-Class Skills and were PrCs. One of them even got the ability to convert Cross-Class Ranks to Class Skill Ranks and the skill became a Class Skill Permanently. Even for any subsequent class you took.
They dont NEED to give a skill rank, especially for skills that can be used untrained, as they give you a +1. By then investing a point in them at some stage (sooner or later) you get great mileage, +1 for the trait, and +3 for it being a class skill.
This isn't a huge impost.
Giving away free skill points because people are bing too tight fisted to pay for them really isn't the answer.
So many route available to get good skill levels, but the steadfast refusal to do anything other than spend every resource on pure fighting capacity and none on skills suggests that skills aren't really high on the priority list, and people just want them for free, watering down the people who invested in Int etc.
They can do all of the above under the status quo, all you are looking to do is reduce the impact of Int dumping by giving out free rides.
They dump 2 int to 8 and still pick up three points/level under your system, same dumping, 50% extra benefit.
They's be mad NOT to immediately dump Int to 8, the free skill points would certainly offset the disadvantage, and only benefit them more and more in the long run.
- Acrobatics
- Climb
- Perception
- Survival
- Swim
- Acrobatics
- Athletics(STR)[Jumping, Climbing, and Swiming]
- Perception
- Survival
From statements like this I have to assume you have never served in the military. It's been almost 20 years now but I served for 9 years as a medic and let me tell you from my experience that they don't just teach you one single thing and figure that's enough. They DO teach basic medical skills to everyone, they DO constantly try to encourage and develop leadership skills in soldiers (at least good units do), they do teach basic combat skills to everyone, etc... Training doesn't stop upon completely basic training, training NEVER stops as long as you are in the service. They don't just rely on one person to spot ambushes or to lead.If you need a scout you train a scout, if you need a leader you train a leader, if you need a medic you train a medic. But why would you train a medic, scout, and a leader for a unit?You said if you need a medic you train a medic. I was a medic and I was trained as a medic, but I was ALSO trained as a leader, and I was trained to operate tactically amongst many, many other things. To think that they are going to train someone just enough to stand there like a moron and poke things is shortsighted and naive.
Uhm, SLIGHT problem with this line of reasoning. In the time period where Pathfinder and D&D are based, there was no such thing as a standing army, no such thing as professional soldiers in the modern sense. Thus, there was no cross training. What you had were conscripts (random folk drafted for a summer), mercenaries, and a handful of professional warriors called knights per battle. The latter were responsible for their own training, by the way.
Your reasoning is flawed; it doesn't represent the reality in which the game is based.
And why is it you believe highly intelligent people who spend a great deal of time studying should have reduced access to skills?Do you also believe that classes not typically utilizing a high strength should receive bonuses to hit and damage in melee as compensation?
As an aside: I value skills as a player. When I build a fighter, he has 4-6 skill points/level. That is using the current rules, no archetypes.
This is probably meant as a means of compensation for how potent Wizards become later on in the game. Sucky skills were intended to be a limiter of sorts. This opinion is based on my experience having played every edition of D&D, including the really odd ones, except 4th.
@Piccolo: The Romanians and Czars/Tzars had Standing forces.
Um... what? How many examples has this thread shown of skills Fighters should have that they simply can't get without an exorbitant investment with the current system?
I know I'd want my Fighters to AT LEAST max the following: Perception, Climb, Swim and Acrobatics. Preferably add Stealth or Heal or Survival or Intimidate or several of those skills to the minimum list depending on the character.
Since when has a melee warrior, armed and armored, been trained to do somersaults, handstands and backflips?! And since when has a merc been TRAINED to do anything, given that they simply travel from job to job, with no actual professional "colleges" in existence?
For that matter, did you know that for most of history, real world sailors didn't know how to swim?
This game is based on legends and real world history, like it or not. 2 + Int is actually pretty damned generous given the time period in which this was based. See my previous post on this thread.
@Piccolo: The Romanians and Czars/Tzars had Standing forces.
From what date to what date? And were they professionally trained, or just another bunch of mercenaries? Moreover, those are very limited areas and mostly are outside of European medieval civilization proper, despite what both the Romanians and Russians would have you believe.
They were actually the largest standing forces during the Dark Ages. But they typically were Garrison Trained. And every Castle had at least a small force of Garrison Trained Troops.
And Acrobatics involves Tumbling and Jumping. Tumbling could simply be knowing how to dodge a swing as you move. Jumping is pretty obvious. Swimming has been around since before the Egyptians. The thing is it wasn't until AFTER the Dark Ages when the Witch Hunts really hit full force.
I still find it funny that Witch Hunts typically occurred do to illnesses not swimming or what Mass Belief states. It wasn't until around the Colonization of America that the Witch Hunts involved stuff as common as Swimming as their Standard Tests. IIRC it started around Columbus's time and didn't take off until we started encountering Natives of the Americas.
In fact around Medieval Europe a Priest was usually trained to swim just in case something happened while they were Baptizing someone.
INT has no clear connection to IQ, and certainly not a simply * 10. One in a billion is six standard deviations; there's no reason to expect any human on Golarion to have above a 100 + 6 * 15 = 190 IQ. But human characters with 20 INTs are a dime a dozen, not unique.If 10 is an average stat, then "no dump stats" means that you can't have a character who is subaverage in any way. That's quite a limitation on character concepts.
You are forgetting something. First, the average stat is 11, not 10. Second, everybody who plays wants to run a STUPERHERO, not some ordinary dipstick.
The PC's are assumed to be that freakish collection of probability all rolled into one single group. Interestingly, they usually end up dead before too much time has passed, despite their wildly high attributes and classes stacked in their favor.
Not saying this is a good thing, but just stating what I see. Skill points seem barely relevant to the power of your character.
Actually, skills grant a lot of versatility to classes, and also promote roleplaying since players tend to examine their sheets and just go with what they have points in. I was there back when there was NWP's, and people didn't even think to do HALF the stuff they do now, even though 2nd ed and prior had some really horrifically potent characters running around.
QUOTE="Malignor"]
The wizard's skill advantage isn't from sp/level, it comes from INT (the skillpoint affecting stat) being a higher return on investment ability score than for the fighter.
Thought I should mention that as a rule, all PC's are packrats. They carry mountains of gear whenever and wherever they can. Nice thing about having Strength as your primary attribute is that you get increases with weight limits even on the odd numbers, and on the even you ALSO get bonuses to hit and damage, besides being better at Climb and Swim, along with having more brute force to apply to a difficult situation.
S'funny, but I've come up with lots of innovative ways to use a warrior's high Strength, like having all the party's excess gear so I can use it at will, unlike the others.
Int is nice, but for the most part Wizards apply it to Knowledges so they know what the hell kind of beastie they are up against, and what to do about it.
Actually the D20 System was built around 10 being Average for Humanoids. the 11 Average is for Monsters.
I'd happily have a conversation that suggests a Fighter should have Perception, ridiculous that isn't a class skill.
Almost as ridiculous as the Cavalier not having Know:Nobility, or any other Knowledge skill for that matter.
I will take you up on that one, Homer. Do you know the nature of medieval warfare? *I* do.
Wanna know what it was like? A (this is no exaggeration, and I can go into detail if you really are a glutton for punishment) random mob of poorly armed men, women, and children even ransacking the countryside for food, water. Famines erupted even in the most fertile of seasons. Little to no military training, with the possible exception being the guy who led the whole shebang. No pay, because you were expected to loot whatever your objective and general surroundings were (even if it was in your own nation under the same monarch). Disease was rampant, and most people died of minor wounds as a result of infection, NOT of the actual fight.
No, they didn't carry their own supply chain. No, you weren't armed, armored etc by anyone except what YOU had personally.
The previous doesn't even come close to what it was like in actual combat.
Now, tell me AGAIN that Fighters deserve all these fancy trained skills? I haven't even gotten to how warriors or actual knights did their fighting, or their tactics. These were not soldiers in the modern sense of the word, not by ANY means. That would require a society in which there is far less waste, and much more organization, along with lots more GNP.
Actually the D20 System was built around 10 being Average for Humanoids. the 11 Average is for Monsters.
Nope. What's the average of 3d6? 10.5, which is rounded up to 11.
d20 involves always Rounding Down as well.
But the actual stat base of the d20 System (NOT OD&D or AD&D) is 10.
Medieval Warfare's definitions have evolved with new discoveries. Such as the discovery that bronze was made 127 years before we originally thought it was and included Iron in the Alloy.
They were actually the largest standing forces during the Dark Ages. But they typically were Garrison Trained. And every Castle had at least a small force of Garrison Trained Troops.
And Acrobatics involves Tumbling and Jumping. Tumbling could simply be knowing how to dodge a swing as you move. Jumping is pretty obvious. Swimming has been around since before the Egyptians. The thing is it wasn't until AFTER the Dark Ages when the Witch Hunts really hit full force.
I still find it funny that Witch Hunts typically occurred do to illnesses not swimming or what Mass Belief states. It wasn't until around the Colonization of America that the Witch Hunts involved stuff as common as Swimming as their Standard Tests. IIRC it started around Columbus's time and didn't take off until we started encountering Natives of the Americas.
In fact around Medieval Europe a Priest was usually trained to swim just in case something happened while they were Baptizing someone.
Nope. Those witch hunts you mention were the last gasp of the Church looking for heretics. See back then, communication was horrible, and there was almost no literacy even for priests. Thus, the Church stressed orthodoxy rigidly, since some random bumpkin priest could come up with their own take on Christianity, and thus you'd get some VERY odd beliefs and behavior. How about swearing off sex, food etc almost ENTIRELY for the true believers? That's for starters. Back then, roving "holy men" were the rockstars of their day, and could easily spread bizarre and unhealthy beliefs, as well as just plain logical ones which countered the Church. Considering that the Church was the last bastion of learning and had most of the resources, this was a dangerous thing.
Combine the fact that medieval doctors as of the 1300's or so had been just created in the first place (universities were a new concept) and had based their learning on the stranger bits of Galen, people were not healthy. However, these doctors liked to accuse their rivals, the "witches" you mention, the midwives, apothecaries, barbers, etc of dealing with the Devil as a means of getting rid of the competition. That's the prevailing theory that modern medieval historians take, and it's interesting to note most of the victims were female, and relatively outsiders. This also meant that the doctors could get a share of the victim's profits, as would the presiding "judge".
Greed. Scary, no?
You are referring to the Dark Ages which while being in the Middle of the Medieval Era was not the most common.
The argument still stands that what is considered true by a Majority is actually false. Heck, most believe the Medieval Eras had little Hygiene yet King Richard would have bathed more than George Washington would have.
d20 involves always Rounding Down as well.
But the actual stat base of the d20 System (NOT OD&D or AD&D) is 10.
News to me. I have d20 Modern (ALL of it), lots of 3.5, a growing collection of Pathfinder, have played every edition/version of D&D in existence at least once for the past 20 years.
The general rule of thumb in math is to round upward when you have a number that's 0.5 to 0.9. Never encountered anything different in d20, and I own the most pure version of it ever made (D20 Modern).
Yes, the notion of medieval warfare has changed over the years, as new evidence has come to light. But none of what we have learned recently has changed one whit of the scenario I was beginning to paint. I also was about to get into what siege warfare was, since that straight up fair contests was what both sides of a given conflict tried to avoid like Death itself. That has direct bearing on what the Fighter and the like are supposed to represent, because there is no way on Earth they were trained in Acrobatics, Perception, what-have-you. Not even the knights, and sure as heck not the vast majority of the fighting forces involved.
You can feel free to give Fighters more skill points, but really, these skills you guys mention as being essential are nothing of the kind.
Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
Fighters ARE NOT basic Soldiers. They are the Mercenaries. The Elites. The Knights. They would have learned to Jump, to Tumble (at least the Dodging AoOs aspect), to Balance, to Swim, and be aware of Danger.
You are referring to the Dark Ages which while being in the Middle of the Medieval Era was not the most common.
The argument still stands that what is considered true by a Majority is actually false. Heck, most believe the Medieval Eras had little Hygiene yet King Richard would have bathed more than George Washington would have.
Not the most common? Well, to be fair Pathfinder takes place MUCH later on, like say in the 15-1600's. That's why there's plate armor, and big honkin' swords, and even primitive firearms.
Even so, armies were not even remotely organized, and in fact were just that bad even hundreds of years after the core of the "Dark Ages". I did not exaggerate, not one whit. If anything, I downplayed the situation, since there's a lot I haven't mentioned yet.
These people were not the super competent sorts, indeed, most of society was hanging on having bumper crops each and every year, or starve. Your idea of a medieval "standing army" is nothing akin to the modern sense. I wish that weren't so, it would be far more exciting if that was the case.
Oh, that point you made about hygiene is the same one I made earlier. They DID bathe, up until the Black Death started hitting in waves, and medieval universities started farting out greatly misled "doctors". I could tell you horror stories, but I shall restrict it to merely stating why nobles doused themselves in perfume. It was because of the stench, not just themselves but of each other and what they did to take care of basic waste management. In the French palace, they'd take a wiz or dump in the stairwells, AND THAT WAS THE NOBILITY, the peasants were worse.
Umm... the 1500s to 1600s was during the Colonial Age/Era... Specifically the Pike & Shotte Era/Age. And it sure as heck had standing armies.
The Medieval Era ended around the 15th Century. It had standing armies. BUT those armies were typically trained more for Defense and Specialty Combat with the Actually Offensive Troops being lesser trained Peasant Levies and Contracted Mercenaries or "Banner Houses" for the Elite Troops.
I am not referring to a Standing Army as the entire force is highly trained National Defense Force. I am saying the Nobles typically had a Standing Army of Troops that were trained for fighting but typically done other jobs. The Basic Soldier would typically Train for an hour to 2 hours then get some rest then work the Farm then get a bit more rest before taking a shift on the Guards.
You do realize that even a Blacksmith was expected to help with a Farm or Garden in addition to being a Blacksmith. If he was expected to forge Armour & Weapons he was expected to know how to wield and use the Weapons.
By the way you might want to double check the Byzantine Empire.
Cheliax seems more British to me... Taldor seems more Byzantine from what I have read...
The rest I would say is right.
Longbowmen would have been Commoners with a Level of Warrior. But the ones who trained and commanded them would have been a Fighter.
In fact a Longbowmen would have Survival and either Profession or Craft to represent their basic jobs. Survival since they were trained as hunters to help improve their Archery.
Now, tell me AGAIN that Fighters deserve all these fancy trained skills?
I specified Cavalier, not Fighter... bit of a difference there.
CAVALIER should have Know:Nobility, because if they were pimped out on a horse with all the rest of the trappings of the ruling elite you'd expect them to have some idea of who the other movers and shakers are.
They should have the option to select the skill as a class skill, as it is rather relevant to their role and social standing.
IIRC: A Cavalier Order gives Knowledge: Nobility and Knowledge: History as Class Skills.
EDIT: Sorry it is Knowledge: Local and Knowledge: Nobility with the Order of the Lion.
EDIT2: I was right both the Order of the Blue Rose AND Order of the Warrior give them Knowledge: Nobility and Knowledge: History.
I know I'd want my Fighters to AT LEAST max the following: Perception, Climb, Swim and Acrobatics. Preferably add Stealth or Heal or Survival or Intimidate or several of those skills to the minimum list depending on the character.
So thats five skills he needs to have?
2/level+1/human+1FC?
Why are you maxxing them all out at each level?
18 Str Fighter with 1 point in climb ends up with... a modifier of 8.
Taking 10 he can automatically climb - Any surface with adequate handholds and footholds (natural or artificial), such as a very rough natural rock surface or a tree, or an unknotted rope, or pulling yourself up when dangling by your hands. By level 3 he can do the same thing even on a slippery surface. Of course if he had 5 gold for a grapple and a rope he'd be laughing at the DC5 which he couldnever fail. Some basic equipment means he's GOOD TO GO for the rest of his career off ONE skill point invested, ever.
18Str Fighter with 1 point in Swim ends up with... he can swim in calm or rough water no problem with 0 threat of ever drowning, and in a rough sea he has a bit of a chance of being in trouble, and by level 3 he can swim foran UNLIMITED number of hours.
And you reckon you need to max these forever?
Are you even looking at the DC chart?
Acrobatics is a MAYBE, a real MAYBE to keep topped up.
Perception is a problem, but then again, how is your Wis?
The only thing it would be nice to keep up to date are opposed skills, but Intimidate is already pretty trivial to pull off.
Some times you need them and can't Take 10.
IIRC: A Cavalier Order gives Knowledge: Nobility and Knowledge: History as Class Skills.
I would have thought they should be a default position, not limited to specific orders, although those Orders are probably the more 'steeped in tradition' types. Know Nobility is also good for spotting rank insignia etc.
If you lived in a world where merely setting foot outside a city made it very possible for you to be attacked by ogres and demons and any city could be assailed by orcs at any time, you'd invest more in a standing army than the ogre-less medieval Europe did. Not to mention that the Fighter is supposed to be more than a random lowliest footsoldier anyhow.
And at least Commoners get Perception as a class skill. Obviously the class whose role theoretically involves acting as a bodyguard for the squishier classes should be worse at spotting incoming threats than a random dirt farmer.
Because of Armor Check Penalties that make climbing challenging, swimming scary as all hell, and reduce the chance of successfully jumping that chasm or preventing those Attacks of Opportunity.
doesn't armor training help mitigate that?
That's Joe the fighter as sword swinging, bow shooting, HERO, Not Joe Fighter the Blacksmith, Accountant, or general Bookworm. That's why Big Action Heroes seek out sages and wizards to consult, they're not sages themselves and they don't try to be. Or they have that roguish sidekick who's almost always more generally informed about things than the Big Hero is.
Sure, the fighter doesn't usually know much Spellcraft. But he's usually fine when it comes to things like climbing, riding, taking care of his weapons, taking care of his horse, and talking to people. And the sage isn't usually a party member who shows up the fighter in every scene.
doesn't armor training help mitigate that?
A little, but very slowly. By 10th level, you've still only reduced your ACP by 2 with it. Most archetypes have a tendency to trade it away too - including the Lore Warden that the "fighter is fine" crowd seems to assume everyone takes when it comes to number of skills per level.
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As I said previously:
As a fighter if you want to be good at a skill you can spend FEATS to support this e.g. Athletic, Persuasive, Skill Focus, etc.
It just means that you'll be slightly less 'focussed' on the combat element.
You have other means at your disposal than merely '2 skill points'.
...which then leaves you worse at both skills and combat than, say, a Ranger. When your best solution is to just be strictly worse than another class, something is horribly wrong.
The problem is those are the things they should be good at from level 1.