Goblinworks Blog: Darkness on the Edge of Town


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Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: Darkness on the Edge of Town

Goblin Squad Member

Damn interesting stuff!

I wonder if the resistance movement in the fort has any chance of conquering it... Would be a lot of fun to play as 'good' bad guys, infiltrating and undermining an evil kingdom :)

Goblin Squad Member

The inimitable Rich Baker! Some nice info on Hellknight sanctioned quests.

Goblin Squad Member

Man I think Rich Baker is great! Be sure to give him incentive to stay and keep doing awesome work. He is good talent.

Goblin Squad Member

What are their laws on the Undead I wonder?

Goblin Squad Member

Nicely thought out and organized. Potential for a lot of conflict and intrigue, as well as atypical quests. Smuggling stuff (goods, slaves, etc) out of a city isn't as common as bringing it in after all. I like it!

Goblin Squad Member

Fun stuff.


I wonder if it might become possible later on to actually liberate Fort Inevitable. Perhaps there could be a one-time event in which the outcome truly is decided by the players--those interested may choose a side, and depending on which side manages to take and hold the Fort (or complete some similar objective), the city will either be freed from Hellknight control or be stuck at status quo.

That would probably be hard for Goblinworks to set up, but it would certainly be interesting. Not even NPC settlements are completely safe from the efforts of the players!


So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

Goblin Squad Member

I doubt they will do a liberation of Either of the three main areas they are doing, Thornkeep, Fort Inevitable, or the good town that is coming to a blog soon lol.

These are the theme park part of the game areas for mainly pve players and beginners.

Goblin Squad Member

What I like most about this blog is that it implies that there will be a lot of amusement park type PvE questing and massive dungeons to play. To be fun for me, PFO needs to marry the two concepts together. If the game is only a mining/crafting/building sandbox then I expect fantasy roleplayers such as myself may feel like the game is incomplete. We aren't space explorers in the middle ages...we are adventurers looking for epic quests to conquer...

Goblin Squad Member

Very nice post, I like the way Fort inevitable is being created.

I wonder if the seven foxes resistance movement will allow us to ally with them, serve as mission/adventure hooks and stuff like that. I would love to feel like being part of a resistance movement against oppression. If seven foxes want (and allow us to) help I'm willing to help them!

Goblin Squad Member

Sure am glad to see the settlements will also have subterranean areas. I am also encouraged by the thought that new players can be weaned from themepark expectations gradually.

Goblin Squad Member

Good stuff!
Kinda hoping we could join any of the three orders, but I suppose just having them as one alliance to align with would be good too.

And here's hoping we can do missions to crush the rebels, who will hopefully be players allied with the Seven Foxes.


I know where I want to start out my adventures in Pathfinder Online after reading this blog post.
I also hope that players can actually become HellKnights and crush those dirty rebels.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

I can already see now some CG thieves stealing the paperwork that shows ownership of a slave and then anonymously turning the slave master over to the authorities, setting the slave free.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I actually think it would be awesome to play a Paladin as a Lawful Good Monster hunter working with the Order of the Pike and start out in Fort Inevitable. It would be a great chance for role play keeping good while following the laws of a settlement that allows indentured servitude but also has laws against the mistreatment of slaves. I'm still going to play my monk, but that inner conflict would be great.

Goblin Squad Member

I was utterly fascinated with this blog; I wish I'd been able to get to it yesterday.

The discussion of how the particular Hellknight Order was chosen was riveting, and I especially liked the decision-making to include the Nail and Gate. It strikes me that offering this kind of explanation of the real-world human thought processes might go a lot further in making Fort Inevitable feel complete, correct, and alive than if you had simply described the end result. I hope there are more blogs with this level of detail on what's actually going on in your minds.

Quote:
The group known as the Seven Foxes are determined to undermine the tyranny of the Hellknights...

Made me smile :)

Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
What are their laws on the Undead I wonder?

Wouldn't undead count as monsters? I would think the Order of the Pike would be very eager to put down any undead infestations, and certainly wouldn't condone openly raising them.

Goblin Squad Member

Rich Baker in charge of the setting? There isn't a better meta-plot mind in the genre. PFO is going to rock very very hard.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
What are their laws on the Undead I wonder?
Wouldn't undead count as monsters? I would think the Order of the Pike would be very eager to put down any undead infestations, and certainly wouldn't condone openly raising them.

I was thinking the same thing, plus you have the added fact that Asmodeus isn't exactly friendly with any of the deities who deal in Undeath. Urgathoa, the Pallid Princess, is Neutral Evil and Asmodeus only respects Lawful deities, even if he thinks them lesser to himself, so his church would feel the same way. The other two, Orcus and Zura are both Demon Lords, and as an Arch-Devil he opposes them, as would his church. So I am not so sure Divine or Arcane Necromancers will be all that welcome in Fort Inevitable. Neither the church of Asmodeus nor the Hellknigts strike me as being OK with undead and those who create them, especially The Order of the Pike.


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Something that crossed my mind regarding the subterranean areas, not the Superdungeon, just the standard underground.

I think it would be really cool if there were areas within the underground where adventrers had set up camps in the past. Perhaps an oven, broken and beat up, but still able to function, and a place for a small group to bed down. The crux is having a way for a group to barricade themselves in, or I even considered having a door that can be closed but has no lock. Perhaps if we beg the Devs, they would allow players to be able to craft locks which could be used to secure the door! Obviously these locks are subject to being picked so whoever is using the area would not want to leave valuable stuff laying about.

What this would do is provide a group that is fleeing from, say the Hellknights, or pretty much anyone, a place to hide out until the heat dies down somewat. Lthese areas would be subject to wandering monsters, and it would be really cool to see a couple of these hideouts throughout the land. Even if they are only utilized as temporary rest points between battles, I think it would enhance players experience.

It would also be a twist to have a group of monsters, or even NPCs take up residence in one of these "camps".

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

One things worries me about Fort Inevitable; their support of slavery. Fort Inevitable resides within the River Kingdoms. The River Kingdoms only have six laws, and one of them is against slavery.

The town probably operates under the radar of Daggermark and Pitax, but it's only a matter of time before someone gets wise, and it will probably be bad times for the fort.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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Valandur wrote:

So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Its a haven for Slavers.
As in its a Town where slavery should not earn a heinous flag at all, because they don't give a crap about the River Kingdoms dislike of slavery.
Necromancy is not the same as slavery.
It is how ever a town where bandits should earn the heinous flag and be killed on sight given the large contingent of Hell Knights who like to execute people for such crimes.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Heinous and Criminal are two very different flags. Note that even the hellknights don't universally condone slavery; it's their tolerance of limited slavery that influences their alignment.

Player characters would have to purchase slaves and then bring them to their settlement in order to use slave labor. It's reasonable that such an action would draw wrath from others in the Kingdoms when done outside of a strongly fortified and reinforced location while the fort itself is largely ignored because it is a hardened target.

Goblin Squad Member

Very interesting.

I wouldn't wanna live there, but it's very interesting none-the-less.


Decorus wrote:
Valandur wrote:

So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Its a haven for Slavers.
As in its a Town where slavery should not earn a heinous flag at all, because they don't give a crap about the River Kingdoms dislike of slavery.
Necromancy is not the same as slavery.
It is how ever a town where bandits should earn the heinous flag and be killed on sight given the large contingent of Hell Knights who like to execute people for such crimes.

I could well be wrong, but I think that even if Ft. Inevitable condones slavery and has it written into its laws, holders of slaves would still get the heinous flag, they just wouldn't be attacked simply for having it. Hence my comment about Necromancers being able to do business within the fort. They just couldn't bring their undead minions along with them.

Goblin Squad Member

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Valandur wrote:
... holders of slaves would still get the heinous flag...

I think this is likely, as well. I certainly hope it turns out that way.

I think it would be really interesting for Goblinworks to show us very clearly how a Settlement which condones some Heinous activity can operate.

Goblin Squad Member

Richter Bones wrote:
I can already see now some CG thieves stealing the paperwork that shows ownership of a slave and then anonymously turning the slave master over to the authorities, setting the slave free.

If the steal/pickpockets/SoH option exists in game :)

This would be an awesome concept to play. Acting as a 'dark knight' in a society that quickly and harshly punishes criminals. Fun times!

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:
Decorus wrote:
Valandur wrote:

So it will be a haven for Necromancers. Even if they can't bring their minions into town, they can leave them safely tucked away somewhere, in a cave, or dwelling, and the Nec can wander the town proudly wearing his heinous flag and be unmolested. That should make a number of people happy, and might even help them when setting up settlements of their own.

A pretty good description of the fort, certainly provides a good start!

I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

Its a haven for Slavers.
As in its a Town where slavery should not earn a heinous flag at all, because they don't give a crap about the River Kingdoms dislike of slavery.
Necromancy is not the same as slavery.
It is how ever a town where bandits should earn the heinous flag and be killed on sight given the large contingent of Hell Knights who like to execute people for such crimes.
I could well be wrong, but I think that even if Ft. Inevitable condones slavery and has it written into its laws, holders of slaves would still get the heinous flag, they just wouldn't be attacked simply for having it. Hence my comment about Necromancers being able to do business within the fort. They just couldn't bring their undead minions along with them.

Why would they get the Heinous Flag the people who live in the Fortress consider slavery to be perfectly acceptable behavior. They have an issue with kidnapping people and turning them into slaves, not with owning or using slaves. People outside may or may not like it, but inside that fortress town its socially acceptable behavior thus negating and eliminating the Heinous flag.

How ever banditry is socially unacceptable behavior and as such should earn a heinous flag while performed in that area.


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Heinous Flag is not dependent on the mores of the owners of a hex.
The owners of a hex can make illegal/legal whatever behavior they want... thru LAWS. Heinous is beyond that.
Slavery would continue to be a Heinous-triggering act regardless of if where you do it it is legal or not.
Remember, Heinous is 'Super Evil', and Good/Evil are not subjective cultural preferences in Pathfinder, but Cosmological Forces that one can't evade or alter. In PFO, Slavery and Undead-Creation ARE Evil and Heinous, whatever one thinks about them (i.e. even if they are 'perfectly acceptable behavior' legally and within the norms of a settlement, they still are Heinous, and that settlement itself will be strongly pushed towards Heinous because of it's sponsorship of Slavery).

The question remains whether there is any indicator/discriminator so that settlements can treat Slavery-Heinous differently from Necromancy-Heinous, or whether a settlement that wants Slavery-Heinous to be A-OK (people with this flag are still under protection of the law vs. being attacked unprovoked by others) must necessarily also treat Necromancy-Heinous the same, because there is no mechanical means to discriminate between those.

Goblin Squad Member

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spamhammer wrote:

One things worries me about Fort Inevitable; their support of slavery. Fort Inevitable resides within the River Kingdoms. The River Kingdoms only have six laws, and one of them is against slavery.

The town probably operates under the radar of Daggermark and Pitax, but it's only a matter of time before someone gets wise, and it will probably be bad times for the fort.

That's covered in the blog.

Quote:
Slavery is highly unpopular in the River Kingdoms, to say the least. In fact, the River Laws specifically ban the practice. However, the Hellknights don't particularly care about the River Laws, and no one who does care has yet confronted Fort Inevitable over the issue—the Hellknight position in the Crusader Road is quite strong, and unless a regional power such as Daggermark or Tymon takes up the cause, nothing is likely to be done anytime soon.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Quandary wrote:


The question remains whether there is any indicator/discriminator so that settlements can treat Slavery-Heinous differently from Necromancy-Heinous, or whether a settlement that wants Slavery-Heinous to be A-OK (people with this flag are still under protection of the law vs. being attacked unprovoked by others) must necessarily also treat Necromancy-Heinous the same, because there is no mechanical means to discriminate between those.

Sure there is- slavery is regulated within Hellknight control, and Necromancy is illegal.

The character who trespasses on Hellknight territory and cuts down a Heinous slave trader has committed murder in the eyes of the Hellknights, possibly dropping his faction standing, and has dispatched a heinous slaver, possibly shifting his alignment and boosting faction standing with other factions.

The character who lawfully enters Kellknight territory and cuts down a Heinous Criminal necromancer has a slightly different outcome.


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DeciusBrutus wrote:
Quandary wrote:
The question remains whether there is any indicator/discriminator so that settlements can treat Slavery-Heinous differently from Necromancy-Heinous...
Sure there is- slavery is regulated within Hellknight control, and Necromancy is illegal.

I'm discussing what information the SERVER has and is able to act upon (apply differing Criminal/Alignment flag consequences immediately). Heinous Flag is not a subset of Criminal Flag, one could have been flagged Heinous while in the Wilderness where none of Fort Inevitable's Laws apply, and Heinous would still apply to you when you enter Hellknight territory, whether it was originally for Slaving or Necromancy.

*IF* Slavery/Necromancy are tracked (and presumably displayed for all to see) along with the Heinous flag, then laws in places like Fort Inevitable can take account of that.

If the reason behind the Heinous Flag is NOT distinctly tracked, then there is no basis for the servers to apply the Laws of Fort Inevitable differently for Heinous Slavers vs. Heinous Necromancers. This is assuming the act in question DIDN'T occur in Fort Inevitable territory, which is the entire point of the Heinous Flag as far as this topic is concerned: If the Necromancy is commited within the Hex, then the Necroancer can by Criminally Flagged for Necromancy (marked for Death) without relying on the Heinous Flag subsystem in any way, merely on the Criminal(Necromancy) Flag. What is in question is Heinous Necromancers who AREN'T Criminally Flagged.

Goblin Squad Member

The blog brings up a lot of questions and possibilities. I wonder what kind of role NPC factions play in the "end game". I't nice to hear some lore and the setting is intriguing bringing up lot plot patterns as quests. I wonder if PC settlements are tied to NPC factions and would that bring some duties or obligations to them.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Quandary wrote:

Heinous Flag is not dependent on the mores of the owners of a hex.

The owners of a hex can make illegal/legal whatever behavior they want... thru LAWS. Heinous is beyond that.
Slavery would continue to be a Heinous-triggering act regardless of if where you do it it is legal or not.
Remember, Heinous is 'Super Evil', and Good/Evil are not subjective cultural preferences in Pathfinder, but Cosmological Forces that one can't evade or alter. In PFO, Slavery and Undead-Creation ARE Evil and Heinous, whatever one thinks about them (i.e. even if they are 'perfectly acceptable behavior' legally and within the norms of a settlement, they still are Heinous, and that settlement itself will be strongly pushed towards Heinous because of it's sponsorship of Slavery).

The question remains whether there is any indicator/discriminator so that settlements can treat Slavery-Heinous differently from Necromancy-Heinous, or whether a settlement that wants Slavery-Heinous to be A-OK (people with this flag are still under protection of the law vs. being attacked unprovoked by others) must necessarily also treat Necromancy-Heinous the same, because there is no mechanical means to discriminate between those.

There are places in Golarion where both are not Heinous so when they introduce those areas into the game what then?

There are places in Golarion where being a Cleric, Paladin or follower of particular gods is considered Heinous what do you do when they are introduced into the game.

Followers of Asmodeus would not consider Slavery to be a Heinous act should they be able to get the benefits of murdering people who have the Heinous flag for being Slavers?

The Heinous flag is an extremely subjective thing at the current time its just the developers inflicting thier morality or more likely worry about being condemned by groups who would find the behavior offensive.

Goblin Squad Member

Aeioun Plainsweed wrote:
The blog brings up a lot of questions and possibilities. I wonder what kind of role NPC factions play in the "end game". I't nice to hear some lore and the setting is intriguing bringing up lot plot patterns as quests. I wonder if PC settlements are tied to NPC factions and would that bring some duties or obligations to them.

It would be cool if allied NPC factions/races could be induced to take over nearby hexes uncontrolled by a settlement or friends who are friendly to that settlement and hostile to others. I like the idea of "gardening" a hex towards a desired state.

Goblin Squad Member

Decorus wrote:

There are places in Golarion where both are not Heinous so when they introduce those areas into the game what then?

There are places in Golarion where being a Cleric, Paladin or follower of particular gods is considered Heinous what do you do when they are introduced into the game.

Followers of Asmodeus would not consider Slavery to be a Heinous act should they be able to get the benefits of murdering people who have the Heinous flag for being Slavers?

If it made sense for that part of the world, then they would just alter how the flag works in those areas. Simple.

Decorus wrote:
The Heinous flag is an extremely subjective thing at the current time its just the developers inflicting thier morality or more likely worry about being condemned by groups who would find the behavior offensive.

It seems as if by "extremely subjective" you are saying that GW has a weak argument for why the Heinous flag applies to what it does in the Crusader Road. If so, I wish you just say that, instead of this objective/subjective language, which just muddies the water.

Anywho, if that is what you are saying I think you are incorrect because the Riverlands have specific mores against slavery, and there is lore backing up this particular view. Which doesn't mean slavery is magically not present, as the lore also shows, it just means there is a general distaste for it, if you will.


@Decorus: GW defines Heinous as "what is universally viewed as Evil", Evil being an objective thing in Golarion,
and 'universal' being the exact opposite of something that would vary depending on local mores.
The fundamental point of Heinous is that it applies distinctly from the Laws of the Land,
if all we cared about was the Laws/Morals of the specific land we were in,
we could just use those and not need any Heinous flag...

Heinous of course is not a game term in the tabletop game, so I think you will have a hard time 'objectively' proving your claims about it's varying definition in different regions of Golarion.

From your last post, it seems you are actually harboring some opinions against the direction GW has gone...
That is fine, but hardly the appropriate thing to mix into a discussion of how their actual game actually works.
If you want to challenge a decision of theirs, perhaps it's better to make that a thread in of itself,
rather than impose that argument on those who want to discuss the actual game that GW is making.

Goblin Squad Member

Decorus wrote:
The Heinous flag is an extremely subjective thing at the current time its just the developers inflicting thier morality or more likely worry about being condemned by groups who would find the behavior offensive.

The developers aren't inflicting their morality, they are building a game they hope people who play Pathfinder and others would like. Most people think enslaving others and animating the dead are less than ideal characteristics in people they would like to be around. They don't socialize well at parties and have peculiar taste in clothes. Their undead give off foul oders and it is expensive to get the rot out of the carpets. And the slaves work for next to nothing and that undercuts local businesses, and we wouldn't hear the end of it from the unions.

You might subjectively feel otherwise, but you aren't building the game.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have to agree with Being, they arent inflicting their morality.

Enslaving others and animating the dead are heinous acts. These things are done by mostly Evil people... Most of "society" will not want that. Therefore you get the Heinous flag.

Its not that they are discouraging it from being done... Its that the type of people who do this will not be welcome in "society."

Its more of a Evil acts will be considered Evil. Thats how it works in a Sandbox game. Do as you wish when playing, but there are consequences.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The gods or alignments of Galorian are the entities 'inflicting' their objective morality on the characters. The DM/dev team is simply adjudicating the real judgement that one fictional character passes on other fictional characters.

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