Simple Fighter Fix

[Chooky]

@Wildebob, that would kill a lot of feats/class features that revolve around AoO. Like rogues and teamwork feats and such. Not saying it's a bad idea, but requires a lot of changes across multiple classes and books.

@kyrt-ryder, I like your idea of having more feats as a quick fix to Fighters, though is 2 feats per LV too much? Is 1 feat per LV a better option? It makes dipping into Fighter less rewarding upfront as the first 2 levels are the same pre and post fix.

I don't have the time atm to create a Fighter with your fix, when I do I'll post it up.

[kyrt-ryder]

You should try making a build with the 2 feats per level before knocking it. In playtesting up to level 15 the fighters in question still had feats they wanted for their builds.

The d20pfsrd is a big asset in filling all those feat slots.

[Gaberlunzie]

Right now, it seems your suggestion is fighters get:

1. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
2. General feat, combat feat
3. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
4. General feat, combat feat
5. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
6. General feat, combat feat
7. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
8. General feat, combat feat
9. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
10. General feat, combat feat
11. General feat, combat feat, general feat*
12. General feat, combat feat
*standard character feat

And while I agree it might not be broken, I do think it's a fair bit too dippable; fighter is already a great dip class. I also think all those general feats might gravitate to more combat feats, and I think that might be too much. Have you considered:

1. Free masterwork equipment of choice, combat feat, general feat*
2. General feat, combat feat
3. Skill focus feat, combat feat, general feat*
4. General feat, combat feat
5. Skill focus feat, combat feat, general feat*
6. General feat, combat feat
7. Skill focus feat, combat feat, general feat*
8. General feat, combat feat
9. Skill focus feat, combat feat, general feat*
10. General feat, combat feat
11. Skill focus feat, combat feat, general feat*
12. General feat, combat feat

This would still be loads of feats allowing multiple combat styles, but would limit a bit how much could be put into combat, and would mean they tend to have more useful out of combat options (because let's face it, it's always hard to prioritize out of combat to combat).

The free masterwork equipment is also about as good as a feat at 1st character level, but not so much if taken as a dip.

[Wildebob]

Chooky wrote:

@Wildebob, that would kill a lot of feats/class features that revolve around AoO. Like rogues and teamwork feats and such. Not saying it's a bad idea, but requires a lot of changes across multiple classes and books.

You think it would throw things off that badly? It may well. I admit I hadn't researched the idea to much extent when I suggested it - it was more of an epiphany - but obviously Paizo thought it was safe to do...at least for the 4 classes and few levels they highlighted with the BB. Honestly, it might be worth the hassle, for me at least, even if it does mess with lots of archetypes and options. My biggest complaint about the PFRPG is how long, drawn-out, and boring combat rounds can become and anything that mitigates that is an improvement in my book.

[The Ghost Knight]

Wind Chime wrote:

Actually the Trail Blazer solution would be pretty cool make fighter about attacks of opportunity. Give fighters two good saves one bad (your choice) give them 4 skill points. Then give them a bonus AoP's a bonus +D6 damage and a +1 to combat maneuvers during AoP's that scales every odd level.

By level 19 you will have 11 attacks of opportunity as well as 10d6 on those attacks and 10 bonus to combat maneuvers during those attacks of opportunity.

I actually think the other Trail Blazer addition of the Expert Weapon Proficiency is a great idea that lets the fighter be less dependent on magic items etc.

Also, the "wild feat" concept (Iron Heroes) lets fighters be much more versatile in combat situations.

I LOVE Multi-class Archtype's Warbound Juggernaut's Warbond class ability giving the fighter a combat pool to use various feats on the fly during combat. I'd just give that as a "normal" fighter class feature.

As to the OP, all good saves, and 4+ skill points with additional skills are a must.

Of course The Talented Fighter from RGG.

I don't know if I'd do ALL of the above but, I think they would help.

[kyrt-ryder]

Gaberlunzie wrote:

And while I agree it might not be broken, I do think it's a fair bit too dippable; fighter is already a great dip class. I also think all those general feats might gravitate to more combat feats, and I think that might be too much.

First off, I have no problem with classes being 'dippable.' There is more than enough in the fighter class to keep players who want to stay in it interested.

Among twenty playtesters in total, only five multiclassed, and only two of those could be considered to have 'dipped.'

To be frank, I don't really understand this community's fear of dipping in the first place. If a character is best represented by Fighter 2, Barbarian 2, Ranger 2, Paladin 2, Cavalier 2, Magus 4, then far be it from me to stand in the player's way.

Quote:

This would still be loads of feats allowing multiple combat styles, but would limit a bit how much could be put into combat, and would mean they tend to have more useful out of combat options (because let's face it, it's always hard to prioritize out of combat to combat).

Part of the beauty of this class is that one doesn't HAVE to prioritize out of combat to combat. Just flesh out the build and take out of combat feats as desired.

That being said, part of me has been considering changing the 'general bonus feat' at odd levels (the same levels which grant level-based general feats) into combat feats, to help keep the Fighter class focused on combat. The Fighter in question would still receive a general feat every level.

In regards to your 'skill focus adjustment' I am very much opposed. The times when a Fighter might take skill focus are fairly rare and it would be wrong to impose multiple instances of the feat onto a Fighter.

A fighter might take skill focus, or a save boosting feat, or master craftsman, or a religious feat, or Extra Traits, or any number of a vast number of other general feats. Or he might stack combat feats in there, and that is ok too. Fighter's are the combat specialists, I don't care if they spend their first 3-6 levels soaking up combat feats before they start broadening their horizons.

[Adjule]

I actually thought of giving the fighter something similar to a paladin's weapon version of the divine bond. Not sure how good or bad that would be.

[Chooky]

I'm currently making a Thunderstriker archetype, but it came to me that you could also make a Viking archetype and stack some Rage Power and General Barbarian feats.

Could somebody see if they can make something completely broken with this Fighter Houserule Fix and the Fighter Viking Archetype?

[kyrt-ryder]

So I just read the Viking Archetype, and losing Weapon Training and Bravery are fairly meaningful blows with this adjustment.

Other than that, I'd probably make a special note that the archetype must trade both bonus feats for a rage power, and that they can only do so at even levels. (It would suck for the Barbarian if the Fighter could accumulate Rage Powers better than it can.)

[Chooky]

So here's my take with this houserule, using the Thunderstriker archetype.

Spoiler:

-----
Fighter Human

STR: 16 + 2
DEX: 15
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 13
CHA: 10

LV1
Human Feat: *Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Bastard Sword)
Feat: Power Attack
Fighter Any: Racial Heritage(Elf)
Fighter Combat: Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword)

LV2
Fighter Any: Arcane Talent(Elf)
Fighter Combat: Shield Focus

LV3 (no penalty to hit when 2H weapon with buckler)
Feat: ?Iron Will
Fighter Any: Arane Strike
Fighter Combat: Furious Focus

LV4
Fighter Any: ?Lightning Reflexes
Fighter Combat: *Weapon Specialisation(Bastard Sword)

LV5
Feat: ?Improved Iron Will
Fighter Any: ?Improved Lightning Reflexes
Fighter Combat: ?Shield Specialisation(Buckler)

LV6
Fighter Any: ?Disruptive?
Fighter Combat: ?Vital Strike?

LV7 (may shield bash with buckler as light shield)
Feat: Shield Slam
Fighter Any: Improved Shield Bash
Fighter Combat: Two-Weapon Fighting

LV8
Fighter Any: *Greater Weapon Focus(Bastard Sword)
Fighter Combat: *Greater Shield Focus

LV9
Feat: ?Double Slice/Devastating Strike/Improved Critical?
Fighter Any: Greater Bull Rush
Fighter Combat: Improved Bull Rush

LV10
Fighter Any: Improved TWF
Fighter Combat: ?Devastating Strike/Double Slice/Improved Critical?

LV11 (When using buckler to attack, gain bonus to hit/dmg = ENH on buckler)
Feat: Two Weapon Rend
Fighter Any: Greater TWF
Fighter Combat: *Shield Master

LV12
Fighter Any: ?Bashing Finish?
Fighter Combat: *Greater Weapon Specialisation(Bastard Sword)

*Core feat, minimum LV
?Don't know, just shoving feats in to fill the gap.
-----

I went for a build that I've always wanted to try but never did because of the lack of feats. The Thunderstriker is a Sword & Board fighter that can switch hit to 2handing, with bonuses to Shield Bashing. Normally you'll need to decided which part you want to focus on, but with this houserule, you can do it all. I've even had enough feats to do a Human dip into Racial Heritage(Elf/Arcane Talent) for scaling CL so I can use Arcane Strike for more damage.

Would you call that OP or unbalanced? The fact you have enough feats to dip into General Feats like Lightning Reflexes or Eldritch Heritage stuff makes you WAY more powerful (actual power, not utility) than the normal Fighter. However, is it on par with the other martials? I really don't know. The other limits are still there, gaining TWF or Improved requires DEX investment. Certain feats still require INT 13 which I can't get in this build.

Comparison between my build to normal Martial Classes IMO:

Spoiler:

Barbarian: They still do more damage, since most Barbarians focus on 2handing and brute forcing/sunder everything. If you want MOAR POWAR then you'd choose the Barbarian over this Fighter.

Monk: Really hard to compare since Monk builds are so over the place. If you're building a Monk for Combat Manoeuvre, the houserule Fighter will be better than the Monk now. I personally don't know of any effective Flurry of Blows/Crit Fishing builds, so I can't say.

Paladin: Smite Evil is still the best. Can cast some buffs, group healing. Compare relatively well?

Ranger: Damage output, the Ranger is higher if you fight the right enemy. Otherwise comparison will need to be done between the Ranger's out-of-combat expertise vs the Thunderstriker's may may options in-combat. As a straight combat-focused TWF Ranger, I would feel inferior to the Thunderstriker even with all the Ranger combat buffs.

Rogue: No comparison needed unfortunately, they don't overlap in terms of their roles. If anything, houserule Fighter (not my build) can put a few feats into helping the Rogue, like dipping into Dazzling Display or Improved Two Weapon Feint.

Cavalier: Cavalier has an animal companion, where the Fighter doesn't. Mounted Combat has it's own problems, so it's more whether or not the Cavalier can get it's charging lance to hit.

Gunslinger: The Gunslinger can still do more damage with the weapon, since they can add their DEX to damage. Otherwise the Fighter can surpass the Gunslinger with all them feats. Amateur Gunslinger allows for them to gain Extra Grit and then pretty much all those Grit Feats, and still have room for Weapon Specialisation and all that jazz.

Ninja: Same as it's Core Class equivalent, the Rogue.

Samurai: The Samurai has enough Class Features to keep it at the same level as a houseruled Fighter. The Challenge ability is wonderful, and you have the choice to have a mount or not with the Sword Saint archetype. Houseule Fighter doesn't overshadow the Samurai in my opinion.

OVERALL
Keeping in mind that this is just a QUICK FIX, it works pretty well. However as with all things in Pathfinder, there's certain situations and builds that can make this completely broken and OP.

You can have a Gunslinger X/Fighter X and dump all your extra Fighter feats into Extra Grit (+2 grit per day) to use your Deeds without worries. Viking Archetype gives you a crazy amount of Rage Powers and all the Raging feats (Furious Finish, Raging Vitality etc.) in existence.
Nearly all Human/Half-Elf Fighters should be able to get the Arcane Strike combo (whose OP-ness is debatable), and I'm sure there's fun to be had with Eldritch Heritage if you have enough CHA. Improved Eldritch Heritage(Abyssal or Orc Bloodline) for the +X STR comes to mind.

[kyrt-ryder]

One note, you DO have one spare feat available (at level 1) if you choose to use the alternate favored class bonus to get Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword.

EDIT: on the Viking comment, I agreed in an earlier post that if applied without any GM adjudication (and made suggestions on said adjudication) the Viking would put the Barbarian in a bad spot (although the Viking does kind of hate himself for being 4 levels behind on Rage Powers, especially Greater Beast Totem. If using 3.5 material though, the Chaos Rage feat [from Dragon #326] gives you those 4 missing 'rage levels.')

[Chooky]

@kyrt-ryder: Yeah, saw your post about Viking/Rage Powers. Just consolidating my opinions :)

There's a lot of patches your idea would need, like making feats like Rogue Talent/Deed Feats/Rage Power etc. take both feat slots instead, but all in all I do like your idea and if the right group of DM and players use this idea, I can see them all having better time.

As nearly everybody else on this thread has said, the underlying problem is the feats themselves, so without changing all that, I believe giving the fighters 2 feats per level is not that bad of an option.

[kyrt-ryder]

Lets be honest here, the Rogue/Fighter is probably powering himself down by burning feats on Extra Rogue Talent :P

Gunslinger stuff never crossed my mind at the time I was throwing this together (and in fact, I do prefer fixing feats over this solution, but it does work.) However, I do wonder what a gun-focused Fighter using this could accomplish.

[Chooky]

If it's a straight Fighter using guns you'll be a little weaker than a Musket Master or Pistolero because you don't have access to Dead Shot, but otherwise you'll be stronger than a straight Gunslinger because you can easily gain access to the feat Deft Shootist Deed, and also get Weapon Specialisation plus Weapon Training then going into Snap Shot chain. You'll lose out on adding DEX to damage, but if you do the Multi-class, you can get the best of both worlds.

[kyrt-ryder]

Well, the simple thing to do (and this thread is all about simple fixes) would just be to scrap the gunslinger and introduce semi-modern firearms (revolvers and lever action rifles/shotguns) that don't need fancy reloading tricks and are strength rated according to the powder load their firing chambers can support (at peak simulationist level this would include strength rated bullets as well, but that's more hassle than is necessary.)

Now we don't need the Gunslinger class (but if somebody is feeling like doing some extra work, they can always distil the cool grit+deeds stuff down into viable feats)