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I read somewhere that every inch below 5'10", for a male, translates to $10,000/year less in salary, because of promotion and hiring differentials. (I'll look for a link, given the opportunity.)
If the median income in the US is somewhere around $36k, a man who is 5'6" would have no earning potential whatsoever...
If the median income in the US is somewhere around $36k, a man who is 5'6" would have no earning potential whatsoever...
I read somewhere that every inch below 5'10", for a male, translates to $10,000/year less in salary, because of promotion and hiring differentials. (I'll look for a link, given the opportunity.)
Welcome to my life!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Funny, I'm 6'4" and roughly 400 lbs yet my stepmom says that neither my dad nor I generate threat so despite being an ogre I don't automatically set off alarms from women.
This has lead to problems with a good friend, who gets VERY wigged when a man gets close. I don't set off threat so I get very close ( we're close non-intimate friends) then suddenly her subconscious goes "Aaaahhhhh Male!" And she freaks. So I need to be careful around her.
something about not reading my posts because they're too long
I apologize for my lack of brevity.
I certainly thought my posts were shorter than the 110 posts that followed that said the same thing but what can ya do. I have definitely chosen not to hone my skill at compressing truth into twitter-feed sized batches. I'm glad the forum's got more room than that.
Perhaps my eloquence has a short-eloquence complex.
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I didn't hear this story until this year, so I may get some details wrong, but, from what I recall: the first thing that the Mrs. ran into on the con floor was a morbidly obese, pasty-faced person of indeterminate gender in a Winnie-the-Pooh outfit. He/she/it smiled at the Mrs. (not in a lascivious way, or at least that wasn't part of the story) and the Mrs. was so creeped out that, this year, she refused to go at all.
Honestly, the RPG con has been the natural habitat of this kind of guy for generations. I think it's a little unfair that he has to be chased out and shooed into even darker corners of nerdhood just because some people have decided they have more rights to be there than he does.
I feel bad for those guys. They probably already know that women are creeped out by their very existence. Now they are also chasing him out of the only hobby that has ever accepted him.
Poor guy.
*sniffle*
I think it goes something like this.
You might make a be-friend check, or a seduction check, or a perform check in front of a girl so as to cast you in a favourable light and move things along, that doesn't mean you pass the check and that you aren't viewed as a creep.
The "they are a creep" reflex can be quite high.
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Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.
I didn't hear this story until this year, so I may get some details wrong, but, from what I recall: the first thing that the Mrs. ran into on the con floor was a morbidly obese, pasty-faced person of indeterminate gender in a Winnie-the-Pooh outfit. He/she/it smiled at the Mrs. (not in a lascivious way, or at least that wasn't part of the story) and the Mrs. was so creeped out that, this year, she refused to go at all.Honestly, the RPG con has been the natural habitat of this kind of guy for generations. I think it's a little unfair that he has to be chased out and shooed into even darker corners of nerdhood just because some people have decided they have more rights to be there than he does.
I feel bad for those guys. They probably already know that women are creeped out by their very existence. Now they are also chasing him out of the only hobby that has ever accepted him.
Poor guy.
*sniffle*
And if we want to appeal to more mainstream crowds, do we need to keep taking in the outcasts?
Its a valid question. I know my college gaming club struggled with it. Personally, I think the answer is that we are healthier as a hobby if we do not cater to that fringe. I know the people I would rather game with are some of the first to leave stereotypical gaming environments.
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I didn't hear this story until this year, so I may get some details wrong, but, from what I recall: the first thing that the Mrs. ran into on the con floor was a morbidly obese, pasty-faced person of indeterminate gender in a Winnie-the-Pooh outfit. He/she/it smiled at the Mrs. (not in a lascivious way, or at least that wasn't part of the story) and the Mrs. was so creeped out that, this year, she refused to go at all.Honestly, the RPG con has been the natural habitat of this kind of guy for generations. I think it's a little unfair that he has to be chased out and shooed into even darker corners of nerdhood just because some people have decided they have more rights to be there than he does.
I feel bad for those guys. They probably already know that women are creeped out by their very existence. Now they are also chasing him out of the only hobby that has ever accepted him.
Poor guy.
*sniffle*
To be honest, when I heard the story I thought: it's a gaming convention, of course there's an obese dude/ette in a Winnie-the-Pooh costume. I have no idea why the Mrs. was creeped out. And I have no intention of driving him/her/it out of the scene. However, I still think the story adequately illustrates that even if tomorrow magic pixie dust was sprinkled all over the gaming convention scene and everybody started believing in male privilege or whatever it is the feminists believe in and started behaving like sexless eunuchs, we'd still have plenty of creeps among us.
Which is fine with me.
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DO we want to appeal to more mainstream crowds? Do we? Seriously?
Do we truly, really, honestly want fifteen different versions of Twilight the Glittering to be the only new RPG that is commercially viable?
Becoming mainstream is not always a good thing.
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Now I'm sure since the poster is such an expert at judging people sight unseen he'll understand when I use the same skills to determine he is a small man, with an equally small manhood, who desperately barks at everything to prove how tough he is, much like chihuahuas not named 'Rocky'.
Huh. I think you've got your wires crossed, Citizen Morris. That pretty much describes me to a tee, except, of course, I'm a goblin, not a man.
Still, excellent extrasenory powers. Well done.
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I'm 6' and about 270. No *way* I'm picking a fight with a dude who is 6'4" 400, not matter what their BMI may be... :P
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Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.So there's nothing you can or should do, right?
Guys should just keep being guys. If that creeps women out and more of them stay away from the hobby, that's their problem not ours.
If strange women don't like your rape jokes, your sexist comments, your friendly "casual" touches, your refusal to stop or any of the other things that have been brought up repeatedly, that's their problem. It's not your fault. Except maybe that you're not attractive enough. If only you were taller.
If one thinks that telling rape jokes is a way to hit on women (which is what Kthulu talking about--not all of the other creeper behavior), then there's probably not much this thread can help them with.
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I'm 6' and about 270. No *way* I'm picking a fight with a dude who is 6'4" 400, not matter what their BMI may be... :P
Pfft. I'll fight anyone, anytime.
[Starts yapping]
DO we want to appeal to more mainstream crowds? Do we? Seriously?
Do we truly, really, honestly want fifteen different versions of Twilight the Glittering to be the only new RPG that is commercially viable?
Becoming mainstream is not always a good thing.
I say yes, make it more mainstream please.
The fear of 15 Twilight RPGs is unfounded. We are a creative bunch and will always have a variety of genres to choose from. But being mainstream will make it much easier to find players and GMs in any social setting.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.So there's nothing you can or should do, right?
Guys should just keep being guys. If that creeps women out and more of them stay away from the hobby, that's their problem not ours.
If strange women don't like your rape jokes, your sexist comments, your friendly "casual" touches, your refusal to stop or any of the other things that have been brought up repeatedly, that's their problem. It's not your fault. Except maybe that you're not attractive enough. If only you were taller.
If one thinks that telling rape jokes is a way to hit on women (which is what Kthulu talking about--not all of the other creeper behavior), then there's probably not much this thread can help them with.
Y'know, this is why I haven't posted in thread yet. I don't doubt Kirth's aims in starting it, and the list of tips he compiled seem like good ones, but does anyone honestly believe that this thread will change anyone's behavior? I doubt that even one person will read this thread and say, "Zounds, I've been doing it all wrong! Mental note: be a better person!"
Also, ninja'd by Jeff, but if you're drawing a distinction between rape jokes and all the other creeper behavior, it's already too late.
So... you mean grabbing people and not letting go when they tell you to is NOT something people like???? Oh man... That explains so much...
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DO we want to appeal to more mainstream crowds? Do we? Seriously?
Do we truly, really, honestly want fifteen different versions of Twilight the Glittering to be the only new RPG that is commercially viable?
Becoming mainstream is not always a good thing.
I say yes, make it more mainstream please.
The fear of 15 Twilight RPGs is unfounded. We are a creative bunch and will always have a variety of genres to choose from. But being mainstream will make it much easier to find players and GMs in any social setting.
Sure. You are going to get an expanded audience as long as the games they get to play are very tuned to current macro-entertainment trends, very heavy on the graphics, and nothing more complicated than Monopoly happens rules-wise. Those are the games and the players you will get. Don't imagine they will stay either, even the maximum surge of adaptation to mainstream will barely register as a fad.
Sure. You are going to get an expanded audience as long as the games they get to play are very tuned to current macro-entertainment trends, very heavy on the graphics, and nothing more complicated than Monopoly happens rules-wise. Those are the games and the players you will get. Don't imagine they will stay either, even the maximum surge of adaptation to mainstream will barely register as a fad.DO we want to appeal to more mainstream crowds? Do we? Seriously?
Do we truly, really, honestly want fifteen different versions of Twilight the Glittering to be the only new RPG that is commercially viable?
Becoming mainstream is not always a good thing.
I say yes, make it more mainstream please.
The fear of 15 Twilight RPGs is unfounded. We are a creative bunch and will always have a variety of genres to choose from. But being mainstream will make it much easier to find players and GMs in any social setting.
Except this is entirely a BS straw man. There is a huge percentage in potential population that will like RPGs that are turned off by solely by the percieved current demographics. Many fit into our actual current demographics and don't realize it. Others are just a little more main stream and don't want their names to be associated with how people think of us. I know at least 3 people who stopped playing and don't talk about RPGs because they don't want people associate them with geeks. These were people who already knew the rules and enjoyed the game.
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Yeah, Caineach... you probably won't like me saying this, but if someone in the mainstream or even the "tried-RPGs-and-knows-the-rules" demographic feels that "getting associated with geeks" is too much of a problem for them to deal with, or that we should change enough that they "don't get their names associated with how people think of us" when they play RPGs, I am going to say with complete certainty that we are better off without precisely those people anywhere near us. If you want to exclude the people who are currently devoted fans to make the hobby more palatable for "a better class of people", then we're better off without you. If you manage to acheive this, that will be the day you and the gaming community are better off without me. I refuse to make non-gamers' intolerance a reason to exclude gamers from our midst. Let the "better class of people" have their football and other crap. And if the problem is what they think without having looked at the gaming community, then let them join us when they have cared enough to actually open their eyes.
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Except that the handful of actual useful posts on this thread have called out actual specific behaviors. And they've been drowned out in a sea of "guys just don't pick up on social cues" and "it would be fine if she found him attractive".
Well, which posts are "useful" is quite subjective, isn't it?
All the defense of obnoxious behavior and idea that it's all the women's problem with no need for guys to change at all, since they have no control over whether someone finds them creepy or not just pisses me off. I'm pretty socially inept and I can manage to interact with women without freaking them out.
- Maybe "rape jokes" should have been "attempts to rape her character", but it was pithier.
I think there's two sets of obnoxious behavior being discussed and conflating the two of them isn't going to help anyone.
Also, to be honest, I usually only read the posts by people I know and others who have caught my attention. Of the female posters that I've been paying attention to, we've got Madame Sissyl, Comrade Slaad, and, now, Ms. Aranna and none of them have been talking about attempts to rape their characters or anything like that, or if they did, I didn't notice.
Most of the other female posters, I think, have tended to be Paizo employees and I don't read their posts because they delete mine.
I guess that's all I have to say other than I read Kthulu's post way differently than you did and it's probably fruitless for us to argue about what he meant when I'm sure he can come back and argue on his own behalf.
Also, goblins still do it in the street.
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If one thinks that telling rape jokes is a way to hit on women (which is what Kthulu talking about--not all of the other creeper behavior), then there's probably not much this thread can help them with.
Also, ninja'd by Jeff, but if you're drawing a distinction between rape jokes and all the other creeper behavior, it's already too late.
Hmm, you know what? Imprecise writing often causes misunderstandings.
The rape jokes and all the other creeper behavior was supposed to be on one side and hitting on women was supposed to be on the other.
Also, I have missed you Hitdice. How's your carapace today?
[Waggles eyebrows]
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I think there's two sets of obnoxious behavior being discussed and conflating the two of them isn't going to help anyone.
qft. and i do think this is one of the facets of the gem that is this issue. Not to discuss threads within threads, but i also feel this had a lot to do with the problems that came up in the save vs sexism thread and even the gay gamer seeking same for rooming thread. If one is going to take a problem head on or discuss it or anything, perhaps a louder or more obvios differentation should be made between similar-but-not-the-same issues within that problem.
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That is obvious. The public park is like a street, only it's now on fire. Streets don't burn well.
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Except that the handful of actual useful posts on this thread have called out actual specific behaviors. And they've been drowned out in a sea of "guys just don't pick up on social cues" and "it would be fine if she found him attractive".
All the defense of obnoxious behavior and idea that it's all the women's problem with no need for guys to change at all, since they have no control over whether someone finds them creepy or not just pisses me off. I'm pretty socially inept and I can manage to interact with women withou freaking them out.
the thing is, im sure if we went through all of the women you interacted with, we wold find a few you did freak out. the question here is, is this privelege speaking or somethig else?
I hate to say it, but, hee hee!
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Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.
this is also something that should be discussed.
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Yeah, Caineach... you probably won't like me saying this, but if someone in the mainstream or even the "tried-RPGs-and-knows-the-rules" demographic feels that "getting associated with geeks" is too much of a problem for them to deal with, or that we should change enough that they "don't get their names associated with how people think of us" when they play RPGs, I am going to say with complete certainty that we are better off without precisely those people anywhere near us. If you want to exclude the people who are currently devoted fans to make the hobby more palatable for "a better class of people", then we're better off without you. If you manage to acheive this, that will be the day you and the gaming community are better off without me. I refuse to make non-gamers' intolerance a reason to exclude gamers from our midst. Let the "better class of people" have their football and other crap. And if the problem is what they think without having looked at the gaming community, then let them join us when they have cared enough to actually open their eyes.
I'm with her. Good riddance.
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Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.this is also something that should be discussed.
No it isn't. This is something that is discussed all the time. So many people in this thread implying that it's morally wrong that a woman may like some men and not others. If you go into situations with thoughts like that, you aren't the harmless shy guy who's just saying hello, you're the idiot who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants just by nature of existing. Stop it. Just stop. You obviously need to grow up significantly before you are ready to have any sort of relationship anyway. I don't care if you're 40 years old, if you think this way, you have to grow up.
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It sure looks like you're discussing it to me, Firefly.
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Yeah, Caineach... you probably won't like me saying this, but if someone in the mainstream or even the "tried-RPGs-and-knows-the-rules" demographic feels that "getting associated with geeks" is too much of a problem for them to deal with, or that we should change enough that they "don't get their names associated with how people think of us" when they play RPGs, I am going to say with complete certainty that we are better off without precisely those people anywhere near us. If you want to exclude the people who are currently devoted fans to make the hobby more palatable for "a better class of people", then we're better off without you. If you manage to acheive this, that will be the day you and the gaming community are better off without me. I refuse to make non-gamers' intolerance a reason to exclude gamers from our midst. Let the "better class of people" have their football and other crap. And if the problem is what they think without having looked at the gaming community, then let them join us when they have cared enough to actually open their eyes.
And I would rather play with people I like than people I tollerate solely because they are the only ones I can find. Hell, I would rather not game than game with most of the people who show up at the game stores locally, and now I don't play in in-store games.
If you want to grow the player base, you cannot cater to the extreme wing of players and defend them like they are sacred. You have to deal with the guys who don't shower or the ones who think staring at women from accross the room is socially acceptable.
Some of those people are easily corrected. Some of the guys are just shy, or they don't know how they are offending people, and talking about it will help. But large swaths make the Simpsons Comic Book Guy socially acceptable and don't care that they are offending people, and I would much rather purge them from our ranks and add the people they are scaring off.
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No it isn't. This is something that is discussed all the time. So many people in this thread implying that it's morally wrong that a woman may like some men and not others. If you go into situations with thoughts like that, you aren't the harmless shy guy who's just saying hello, you're the idiot who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants just by nature of existing. Stop it. Just stop. You obviously need to grow up significantly before you are ready to have any sort of relationship anyway. I don't care if you're 40 years old, if you think this way, you have to grow up.Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.this is also something that should be discussed.
uh...i think you may be taking away more from than i intended. I live in a big city, and i have seen knock down fights break out due to the latter part f what kthluhu mentioned. This has nothing to do with trying to get in anyones pants or anything, but more of a misunderstanding what someone who is smiling at you(or in one memorale situation, just smiling in your direction) means. Going around thinking you;'re entitled to a phone number or sexual favors is bad. Going around assuming that someone who is simply being courteous(or in my experience, lost and asking for directions) is trying to mack on you is also bad.
No it isn't. This is something that is discussed all the time. So many people in this thread implying that it's morally wrong that a woman may like some men and not others. If you go into situations with thoughts like that, you aren't the harmless shy guy who's just saying hello, you're the idiot who thinks he's entitled to whatever he wants just by nature of existing. Stop it. Just stop. You obviously need to grow up significantly before you are ready to have any sort of relationship anyway. I don't care if you're 40 years old, if you think this way, you have to grow up.Again, it goes back the that SNL video. If the person you are hitting on finds you attractive, then you are not (to them) a creep. If the person you are trying to vaguely interact with (such as saying "hello") finds you unattractive, then you are (to them) a creep.this is also something that should be discussed.
So expecting to not be taken as a creep when you say hello because you aren't pretty is entitlement?
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And I would rather play with people I like than people I tollerate solely because they are the only ones I can find. Hell, I would rather not game than game with most of the people who show up at the game stores locally, and now I don't play in in-store games.
If you want to grow the player base, you cannot cater to the extreme wing of players and defend them like they are sacred. You have to deal with the guys who don't shower or the ones who think staring at women from accross the room is socially acceptable.
Some of those people are easily corrected. Some of the guys are just shy, or they don't know how they are offending people, and talking about it will help. But large swaths make the Simpsons Comic Book Guy socially acceptable and don't care that they are offending people, and I would much rather purge them from our ranks and add the people they are scaring off.
Personally, I don't see the problem. My home game has never lacked for players and most of them have never been to a convention. In fact, half of the original group had never played before our game started.
The hobby has grown pretty widely since it was invented and I haven't really noticed the dorks holding it back, but mileage may vary I suppose. I guess I'd say, if you don't like the type of people at conventions, uh, don't go to conventions?
And I would rather play with people I like than people I tollerate solely because they are the only ones I can find. Hell, I would rather not game than game with most of the people who show up at the game stores locally, and now I don't play in in-store games.
If you want to grow the player base, you cannot cater to the extreme wing of players and defend them like they are sacred. You have to deal with the guys who don't shower or the ones who think staring at women from accross the room is socially acceptable.
Some of those people are easily corrected. Some of the guys are just shy, or they don't know how they are offending people, and talking about it will help. But large swaths make the Simpsons Comic Book Guy socially acceptable and don't care that they are offending people, and I would much rather purge them from our ranks and add the people they are scaring off.
Personally, I don't see the problem. My home game has never lacked for players and most of them have never been to a convention. In fact, half of the original group had never played before our game started.
The hobby has grown pretty widely since it was invented and I haven't really noticed the dorks holding it back, but mileage may vary I suppose. I guess I'd say, if you don't like the type of people at conventions, uh, don't go to conventions?
My college club was a good local draw for introducing people into gaming. We did mostly board\card games at weekly events and individual groups would go out and play RPGs. We would recruit maybe a dozen new people every year, half of whom had never tried RPGs before. Then 1 guy showed up who creeped some people out. Weekly event attendance dropped 25%, with multiple people telling me they stopped coming because of him. Sure, they were still in personal games through people they met and knew, but we will never know how many people never joined the social group because they were scared off by him. I would have gladly had any one of the people he scared off in his place.
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And I would rather play with people I like than people I tollerate solely because they are the only ones I can find. Hell, I would rather not game than game with most of the people who show up at the game stores locally, and now I don't play in in-store games.
If you want to grow the player base, you cannot cater to the extreme wing of players and defend them like they are sacred. You have to deal with the guys who don't shower or the ones who think staring at women from accross the room is socially acceptable.
Some of those people are easily corrected. Some of the guys are just shy, or they don't know how they are offending people, and talking about it will help. But large swaths make the Simpsons Comic Book Guy socially acceptable and don't care that they are offending people, and I would much rather purge them from our ranks and add the people they are scaring off.
Personally, I don't see the problem. My home game has never lacked for players and most of them have never been to a convention. In fact, half of the original group had never played before our game started.
The hobby has grown pretty widely since it was invented and I haven't really noticed the dorks holding it back, but mileage may vary I suppose. I guess I'd say, if you don't like the type of people at conventions, uh, don't go to conventions?
The hobby is actually shrinking. It's hard to tell, mostly because we don't get much data released by companies that might help us determine size and trends, but most industry insiders who have thoughts on the trend of the size of our hobby say it is declining.
GenCon attendance tends to up year over year, but that also has to do with gamers getting older and older people tend to have more money, so traveling across the country for gaming becomes easier.
Roleplaying probably peaked in the early 90's as far as size of audience.