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So I have been considering what the ultimate classic 4 man party would be. I know this has been done before, but I thought it a fun topic. A party that would be able to fill all the roles of PF, dish out consistant DPS, and have high survivability. A party that could take on not only deadly traps, heavy combat, but also have social interactions down.
20 point buy.
No homebrew.
All PF sources available (excluding custom Races).
Lets consider the different roles:
Tank
Healer
DPS
CC
And Secondary Roles:
Scout/Trapfinder
Face
Buffer
Skill monkey
So obviously your big 4 would have to have at least two roles... Not necessarly one of each. I would consider a start point something like this... Class - Roles it CAN be if needed.
Half-Elf Summoner (no archtype) - Tank/CC, Face, Buffer
Human Ranger - DPS, Scout
Halfling Oracle - Healer/CC, Face, Buffer
Half-Orc Rogue - DPS, Scout/Trapfinder, Skill Monkey
Now thats just a Template. Nothing is really optimized or fleshed out, but as you can see they fufill all roles. Some fufill the same function. Im sure there are better picks. For instance a Paladin could be a Tank/DPS, Face. So what are your Top 4. Have I missed any Roles?
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I am working on a very, very in depth look at this here:How to Round out your Party. It's about 60% done at this point. YOu seem to have a good grasp of this, so I'd love it if you could give it a look.
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Why of course going 4 alchemists is the best optimized party in PFS.
Tank/dps: Feral Mutagen expert, end up taking vestigial arm so you always have a potion in hand.
Face/Healer: High Charisma, High Int, works on making potions have the best effects and giving out some sweet healing potions and buff potions.
CC/DPS: Why of course you have a high dex/high int Bomb throwing machine, This is the guy that is maximizing his damage with thrown bombs and thrown weapons. Some of the discoveries give bombs some good battlefiend control, the Smokebomb, toss that on some bad guy spell casters or rangers then they have to blindly run around trying to get out of a 20 foot burst of smoke. Solid stuff.
Skill monkey: Alchemists need a high int for their infusions which gives them a boost, they get 4+int which is decent it adds up. The skill monkey is a trait shared by almost everyone in the party because they all have decent skill ranks. They get disable device which is a huge buff and since everyone has it, no reason every alchemist shouldn't have at least one rank in it.
All around The 4 alchemist can be the most optimized and efficient party and probably get along the easiest as well. Bit of squabling over some items but they are all unique which helps.
Thats just my opinion!
Are you allowing broken and the most DMed Block class available?( you can't even play this in organized play)
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner with Skill monkey Eidolon
Summoner Master Summoner..
Race= Irrelevant
At 10th level pretty much destroy anything in the game...although combat might take 15 hours for 5 rounds of actual combat..
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Are you allowing broken and the most DMed Block class available?( you can't even play this in organized play)
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner with Skill monkey Eidolon
Summoner Master Summoner..Race= Irrelevant
At 10th level pretty much destroy anything in the game...although combat might take 15 hours for 5 rounds of actual combat..
Gotta love summoner stacking, just as potent if not more than the Alchemist stacking. Summoner's are just too deadly and too time consuming for combat, but damn effective.
Switch hitter ranger, reach inquisitor, archeologist bard, any wizard you fancy.
A "perfect" party should have survivability from lvl 1-20... just bc at lvl 5 you will crush all but if a group of 5 goblins will eat your face at lvl 1 it is not really a "perfect" party
Paladin/Fighter, Ranger, Rogue/Bard, Wizard/Cleric. These cover the classic roles. Put a Paladin with a Rogue or a Fighter with a Bard. More offensive, go with Wizard; healing or fighting lots of evil, Cleric. Everybody shines, less stepping on toes.
Just something to think about when putting together this all slow bab casties
I don't agree with all of your roles, so my party will look a little different along those lines.
Healer - The party should have the ability to heal itself, but I don't consider "healer" to be anyone's primary job.
DPS - Everyone should contribute to damage.
CC - Control comes in many forms, and everyone should contribute.
And Secondary Roles:
Scout/Trapfinder - First, I would separate these tasks.
Face - The party should ideally contain at least one large bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive, but they don't have to be on the same character, and I prefer to let all players participate in social roleplay.
Buffer - Definitely not a role, but not an unwelcome element to any character.
Skill monkey - Again, not a role, however there are certain skills I would prefer to have represented in the party.
One build, without a particular setting or campaign in mind, would look like this:
- Paladin - Human, Skills(Diplomacy, Ride, Perception), build for melee DPR
- Ranger(Infiltrator) or Barbarian - Human, Skills(Survival, Perception, etc.), build for melee or ranged DPR
- Cleric - Human, Skills(Sense Motive, Heal, Perception), build for melee with feats but use spells for party buffs and control
- Wizard - Elf, Skills(Spellcraft and Knowledges), build for control without neglecting party buffs and damage
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Copying shamelessly from TarkXT
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p576?On-building-a-balanced-group-working-out- just
Switch hitter ranger - DPS/tank
Evangelist cleric - healer/buffer/dps/face
Elf wizard (get a familiar for more sneaky fun - possible improved familiar (imp) at 7) - CC/skill monkey/sneak(familiar)/buffer
Bard Archer (Either archeologist/archivist) - CC/Scout/Trapfinder / face / sneak / buffer/ skillmonkey
Archivists lose the ability to take 10 on all skills until lv 17(very late game) and their bardic performance is dependent on knowledge checks. Again Archeologists cant disable magical traps till 6. The combination of Standard bard buffs + Archivist would make hitting easy. Also Ive never been able to wrap the idea of archeologist performance being used with saving finale.
I'm always partial to Druid, cleric, wizard, paladin.
My favorite 5th party member is a witch.
Switch hitter ranger, reach inquisitor, archeologist bard, any wizard you fancy.
Ranged archeologist into arcane archer. You have enough fire power, abilities, healing, arcane support, and SKILLZ for everything!
Four paladins, each of which has quickened channel, and each of which casts 'shield other' on the guy to their left.
Bonus if all four are half orcs with the ability to fight on (or channel) below 0 hit points.
^ or things that can be killed with swords.
Which is nearly all of them.
Human Oathbound(Wyrm) Paladin [Flying Charger]- Tank/DPS/Face/Healer
Human Urban Ranger [Switch Hitter]- Scout/Trapfinder/DPS/Skill Monkey/Healer
Elf Spellbinder Wizard [Cryomancer Evoker]- CC/Buffer/Skill Monkey (pokedex)
Dwarf Forgemaster Cleric [Crafter]- Healer/Buffer
main roles are bolded
idea is the paladin and ranger draw aggro, pally takes most of the hits with his high armor and high HP, ranger can do ok with lower AC and slightly lower HP than the pally (assumed to be typical due to stats) the wizard blasts frozen rimey things at everything buying the team free turns all over the place and can prepare all kinds of fireballs in any slot he wants because of being a spellbinder and the cleric can craft cheap and fast while being tanky and decent at combat himself, but never on the front line since its his job to heal, buff, and support
the role of the cleric i suppose could be filled by a bard, but the forgemaster gets craft arms for free at lvl 3, which saves the team a feat and half its gp if GM allows, they also craft stuff in half the time
I am working on a very, very in depth look at this here:How to Round out your Party. It's about 60% done at this point. YOu seem to have a good grasp of this, so I'd love it if you could give it a look.
I will take a look. Thanks
Why of course going 4 alchemists is the best optimized party in PFS.
So let me add that it should be 4 DIFFERENT classes. That will make the convo a bit more fun... and less a flame war over the Overpoweredness of a single class. And I dont play PFS or really care about it that much. Id just stick to PF material.
Are you allowing broken and the most DMed Block class available?( you can't even play this in organized play)
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner Synthesis
Summoner with Skill monkey Eidolon
Summoner Master Summoner..
See my response above. I dont care about PFS and my four was a simple example. Im not really looking to say whats best... simply was curious as to what people considered their top 4.
your trapper I'd make a wizard.
Aram zeys trap focus gives the wizard "trapfinding" and with his high int, he can handle disable device in there no problem anyhow. Throw in trapsrpingers gloves and he's all set. (it's what I do in PFS, so for the cost of a lvl 2 I can disable even magical traps)
Do those gloves allow you to disable Magical Traps without having to use dispel?
I don't agree with all of your roles, so my party will look a little different along those lines.** spoiler omitted **
A core role should be Healer. That doesn't mean he has to ONLY heal. Even in my example he could be CC and the Face. But you do need someone that can heal in a pinch or between combats. I think we have about the same idea. Just cause you can heal doesn't mean you have to be stuck doing just that.
I personally like life oracle over cleric myself, but that's just me.
Agreed. Oracles don't have to memorize heals "Just in Case". They can CC/DPS/Ect... and still heal if the crap hits the fan. Add in the CHA as a casting stat and they can also be a Face if needed.
The Legionnaires.
Summoners, such as...The Summoner, Druid, Wizard/Sorc.
Evangelist Cleric with Sacred Summoning to dole out buffs and also summon.
If your summoner toolkit can't fix the problem, maybe your magic toolkit can.
All Halfings all the time.
3/4 BaB classes in each role.
Magus
Inquisitor
Rogue
Alchemist.
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I'd not bother with the bard in that situation just a mort, giving up bardic performance is a huge loss imo and not worth it for the meager abilities.
The spell its self lets you disable as if a rogue (so you can now disable magical traps) the gloves just give you a +5 to disable device on the cheap (and a bonus to your sv vs traps) in the glove slot.
I suppose I could clarify each role a bit. At least as I see them.
Tank - Someone who can not only take a beating(Avoid taking a beating), but also have the ability to make the enemy WANT/HAVE to hit you instead of the rest of the group.
Has some or all of the following... AC/DR/Fast Healing
Is Beefy (HP)
The ability to goad the enemy, or lock them down.
*Note* The TANK doesn't necessarily have to be the one who locks them down in front of the tank. The CC'er can do this too.
Healer - In its most basic form this can be someone that can use a wand between fights. However to really fill the role you will need to be a bit better then that.
Accomplish something in combat when not needed to heal (DPS or CC)
Can pump out emergency healing when needed.
Can take care of debuffs (Curses, disease, negative levels, ect)
DPS - This is a simple role. One that most want to fill. A DPS's job is to be able to hurt others. That simple.... or is it.
Don't be a one trick pony. Have more then one way to skin a cat.
Be sure you can bring the hurt from range if needed.
Make sure you cant be taken out of the fight to easily (shore up weakness)
CC - Probably the most important role. The CC has to be able to control the battle field. You need to be able to Debuff, lock down, and make the terrain work for your group. Its your job to put your parties strengths in their best situation. Make the numbers work in your favor.
Terrain control - split up the enemy, slow them, hamper them, obsure them ect.
Debuff - Make the enemy worse at what they do.
Lock down - Simply taking the biggest threat out of the fight at the right time... or at least keeping him busy until the party is ready. This can be as simple as funneling the bad guys in front of your tank.
Wizard(conjuror)every party should have one, Pally, Cleric or Oracle, lvl 1 rogue(trap finding) and either ranger or inquisitor.
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I've finished my Rounding Out Your Party tool! Play around with it, and tell me what you think. It should help you guys create optimized parties, and be fun besides!
To test it out, I will determine the "Weighted Party Score" of a few of the suggestions on this thread.
Switch hitter ranger, Melee inquisitor, archeologist bard, and wizard: 16.13
Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Sorcerer: 15.48, suffers from lack of trapfinders or sneaky types, and fairly squishy overall.
Paladin, Ranger (Ranged), Sorcerer, Rogue: 18.4.
If there are a few of you trying to edit it at the same time, make a copy for yourself!
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The cleric(evangelist) does the bard song actually. Bard is just there for good hope/haste..and skill monkeying + decent archery. No one skill monkeys like a bard(versatile performance), and I've seen bards put my wizard to shame in knowledge checks. Take 10 is awesome, not to mention stacking bonus of half your levels in knowledge checks. Note: some GMs refuse to let you detect magical traps if you don't have trapfinding/ a class feature that says you can disarm magical traps. So you wouldn't even know it is there for you to pull your wand out.
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yeah the thing is no one needs that level of overkill in skill checks either =D.
You can see magical traps regardless of your trapfinding ability. Combined with the cantrip detect magic, and it's just hard to argue you need a or anyone with trapfinding.
Magic: Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.
A successful Perception check (DC 25 + spell level) detects a magic trap before it goes off.
Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level × 1.5).
Magic traps may be disarmed by a character with the trapfinding class feature with a successful Disable Device skill check (DC 25 + spell level). Other characters have no chance to disarm a magic trap with a Disable Device check.
Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat.Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for that purpose.
Your GM can certainly say you require trapfinding to see, but it's clear that you can find a magical trap without trapfinding. You just can't disable it with DD without trapfinding.
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A life oracle gets to out heal and cure a cleric easy.
Not only that, you go with life link, and you're not even expending actions to do it. Oh and free elemental subtype at will...
Then there's the whole mysteries, personally I enjoy deaf because silent on all your spells without lvl adjustment is awesome, and nothing verbal affects you (even bard, but you don't need that, the bard will just have to dance his inspire, rather than verbal it)
So now all those "it's too loud, 20% spell fail" and situations of it's ilk do not affect you, and no one hears you casting ever.
This has been settled for years.
druid, druid, druid, wizard
Gnome Void Shadowcaster
Half-Orc Alchemist
Halfling Archivist
Human Invulnerable Rager
Your just missing the Grumpy Drawf Fighter and the Elf chick that tries to make everyone get along lol.
- Paladin - Human, Skills(Diplomacy, Ride, Perception), build for melee DPR
- Ranger(Infiltrator) - Human, Skills(Survival, Perception, etc.), build for ranged DPR with a melee backup plan
- Cleric - Human, Skills(Sense Motive, Heal, Perception), build for melee with feats but use spells for party buffs and control
- Wizard - Elf, Skills(Spellcraft and Knowledges), build for control without neglecting party buffs and damage
I feel like I should add some explanation for my choices.
Cleric & Wizard - I choose vancian rather than spontaneous casters because their access to a wider variety of spells makes them more powerful in the long run. Also, depending on how my GM handles WBL and item availability, I would consider item creation feats for one or both casters.No Trapfinder - Given reason to believe my GM or campaign would cause the party to encounter an unusually high number of traps, I'd make adjustments to accommodate. However, in my fairly extensive experience with D&D/PF, I've found that traps play a decreasing and fairly small role in most games. Traps are infrequent, rarely deadly, often avoidable, can be dealt with by other means, and having a character who specializes in dealing with traps provides only a partial defense.
Paladin & Ranger - Both can cure, which is primarily important for emergency situations. Both can function at range or in melee. And, most important, both can dish out tremendous amounts of damage when needed.
Fifth member - If I were to add a fifth member to the group, it would be another character focused on DPR. Likely I'd go with a barbarian.
Strategy - The basic strategy of this group would be to end fights as quickly as possible through dealing massive amounts of damage.
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Just for the heck of it, let's plug in Blueluck's party and Soupturtle's party into the "Round Out Your Party Tool"
Blueluck's Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard yields a General Team score of 2.25 and a combat score of 6.01. It looks like we are suffering from a lack of trapfinders and debuffers. Magic ability and healing are a little bit high (as every party member can do both), and we might get more mileage out of focusing on other areas.
Paladin, Ranger, Cleric, Wizard, Barbarian (Melee) yields a General team score of 5.98 and a combat score of 8.38. We've got trapfinding covered now, but are a bit low on debuffs and area attacks. The party also has great tanking material at this point, which, combined with good heals, makes for greatness!
Soup turtle's Synthesist, Zen Archer, Evangelist, and Debuff Focused Wizard (.5 Wizard, .5 Witch for the tool) yields: a General Score of 2.14 and a combat score of 6.24. We are suffering from lack of blasting damage, trapfinding, and stealth, and the synthesist is having a tough time as the only front line melee/tank out there.
Sound accurate?
Warden/Trapper Ranger Human(working towards Horizon Walker) Scout/Trapfinder/Tank build: Feat-starved Tank in combat, effective trap monkey with downright obscene initiative and perception and stealth in favored terrains.
Divine Hunter Paladin: Ranged DPS, secondary healer, face, divine knowledge, competant secondary melee as needed
White Witch: Healer, CC, hexes, arcane knowledge
Explosive Blast Alchemist: AoE DPS, other knowledge,
*sub alchemist with Summoning Wizard for fun and profit.
4 Humans
4 Commoners
Final Destination