Player Troubles


Advice


I run a homebrew campaign. The players are the following classes: Barbarian/Oracle multiclasser, Monk, and Fighter. All level 11. Now the first two have made excellent interesting characters. But the fighter, is what we call a "min-maxer". He has dumped anything he deems useless like RP factors and look cool factors, but put everything he has into things to make him "better". So his strength and dexterity are through the roof. Normally this wouldnt be a problem. However this character also likes to argue with the DM. He has decided if there isn't a rule against doing something, he is allowed to do it. This frustrates me. He is very demanding, and aggressive in his demands. I'm close to kicking him out of the campaign altogether but we're such a small group as it is I fear having 2 players and 2 NPC's would take most of the fun out of it for the other two players. But the stat differences between the players elevate the CR so that the monk and barbarian go down fairly fast but the fighter ends the fight with 100 HP. For example. When fighting a non-buffed level 12 monk, the monk would have to have a strength mod of 9 to hit the fighter or roll a 20, whereas without any feats put into AC and an average dexterity, the fighter would have to roll a 6. To make things even worse, the fighter took the crane wing path of feats. So one melee attack per round is negated. So even if I rolled the 20 it would miss. So i have to elevate the strength and AC of monsters for it to pose a threat to the party. But he notices. So he takes the AC or strength or BAB of the monster and throws it back in my face saying it's against the rules, I'm a bad DM and don't know the basics. I calmly explain that it is within the rules as a DM since I can change whatever I want to suit the party's needs. He just keeps being a rule book slammer. I know I break the rules, but it is so every encounter remains a challenge. Most of the encounters are incredibly easy if I don't buff the monster or give it an extra feat or something like that because he can hit it with his eyes closed, but it is impossible to land a hit on him. I'm really at the end of my rope here. I don't know what else to do. I follow the rules, every encounter is a 10 second long massacre, or every encounter is exciting but I get the rule book slammed in my face for 2 straight days via text. (For the record, the monster he was so upset about? Had 4 extra natural armor, and 1 extra feat which was multiattack...not broken at all. Just a little extra to be able to do ANYTHING)


Tell him to drop it or you'll drop him. You can make changes to accomodate just two players in a campaign and have much more fun and interesting game. It sounds as if this player is making your time not fun, which in turn means that he's not being a responsible player. Also, since he dumped his Charisma and presumably Intelligence, there are spells and creatures that drain those stats. Use them. ANd then there's Will saves on save or suck spells. Kill this character and reject his submitted characters until he makes a character more in line with the rest of the party's power level. Explain it to him. Also, the next time he slams the rule book in your face, open it to the very first rule of the game where it explains that all rules contained therein are subject to the GMs whims for the purpose of making a compelling story. And then proceed with your planned encounter.


Drogos wrote:
Tell him to drop it or you'll drop him. You can make changes to accomodate just two players in a campaign and have much more fun and interesting game. It sounds as if this player is making your time not fun, which in turn means that he's not being a responsible player. Also, since he dumped his Charisma and presumably Intelligence, there are spells and creatures that drain those stats. Use them. ANd then there's Will saves on save or suck spells. Kill this character and reject his submitted characters until he makes a character more in line with the rest of the party's power level. Explain it to him. Also, the next time he slams the rule book in your face, open it to the very first rule of the game where it explains that all rules contained therein are subject to the GMs whims for the purpose of making a compelling story. And then proceed with your planned encounter.

That's just it. I did. He just doesn't care. For some reason it's not getting through to him. And since most of those creatures require a hit first, it's nearly impossible. Plus he took the iron will feat path to protect him from my will saves. I'd like to just talk to him, but it's out of the question. He's unreasonable. Even after cooling off. But I don't wanna eject him, it sets a sour tone for the rest of the campaign.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

1. Borrow his character sheet and copy it.

2. Add a goatee.

3. Have Mr. Fighter meet himself in a dark alley.

May the best man win.


The sad thing is we won the encounter where the npc in question was buffed. I'm the Barbarian/Oracle by the way.
myself and the our ally npc both went down and the fighter ended up winning without losing much health at all.
Did i complain? no WE WON. but guy who plays the fighter wants everything to be easy..


It's the player's behavior that's the problem, so IC solutions will have a tough time working. Basically, you need to sit down with him again.

First of all, what is he looking to get out of this game? What aspect of RPGs does he consider fun? From your description, it sounds like 'killing stuff for the lulz' but I'd ask him to get a more complete picture. Is there a way that you as a GM can provide more spotlight opportunities in exchange for a change in his behavior?

Secondly, he needs to be straight out told that the way he is acting is preventing you (and possibly the other players) from having a good time. This is a social game, first and foremost. If you have someone at your table who has absolutely no interest in other people having a good time, then it's best that he leave. Playing a game with 2 players is a lot better than playing with a 3rd poisonous player.

Third, this might be a good time to start asking around for other interested players. Usually the problem is that groups are have too many players, not too few. Checking meetup.com and leaving a message with the guy behind the counter of your local game store will probably bear fruit pretty quickly.


First off the easy version would be to kick him.

Im not really sure what you want. If you just want all to have fun design encounter to help your other pcs. Let them fight on a icy bridge taking acrobatic checks to move, or in water taking swim checks. Send a rust monster or 12. Attack his bad stats with drain. Dificult terrain can be a b%@%& and if your other pcs have fast movement the day while he is falling behind. Let your other pcs have some win to make him see how all the unimportant skills may be important.

That being said it would be easier to challenge your groupe if we had some stats on all of the pcs. Im not very familiar with the APG but i dont see how the fighter got the crane style and crane wing.


the style not that hard to see... human fighters have one thing (less so in PF, but still true) and that's tones and tons of feats...


I could imagine it to be an arms race.
He wants to be (near) unkillable. perhaps he's made bad experiences with another gm. And the more you, as the gm up the power level the more he will try to compensate by minmaxing even harder.
And he I guess he knows that he is reaching the limits of what he can do and now sees you go up, where he can't follow, because HE has to stick to the rules.

Talk to him.

By the way, I'd like to know if he's really taking the fun out of it for the other players.


There's a hundred and one ways to challenge the fighter, but frankly it makes no difference because the player is the problem. He's got a "player vs DM" mindset thing going, and nothing is going to change that any time soon.

I suggest that you add in encounters tailored to the rest of the party - social issues, stealth requirements, having to fight winged monkeys while swinging on pendulums, that kind of thing.

Or the other characters could just pull up rocks and exchange war-stories the next time a fight breaks out and just let this guy beat on things on his own. Or go find the treasure chamber and loot it.

Silver Crusade

Can't you find another player?


Lose one player, or possibly lose the other two becasue the fighter is being catered to to avoid losing him.

This is the decision to make.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

First, when you post is one solid paragraph it is very tough to read. Please put in some paragraphs or bullet points.

Second, if he is poisoning the group atmosphere it is going to wreck the game even more than a small group. I would flat tell him, "Look the group is small but you don't seem to like the way we play. If you can't stop the temper tantrums you are free to find another group."

Third, there is absolutely no need to cheat the rules. Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong with it if that is the way you roll. But it isn't needed. You can use templates and class levels.
- This is tribe of advanced fiendish owlbears.
- Those are half-dragon cloud giant wraiths.
- They are lead by an awakened roc with 6 levels of druid.
etc...

Fourth, there are lots of easy ways to challenge ANY build. Give us a few more specifics on his build and people here will line up to give you buhzillion ideas. Just a few quick ideas:
- The 12th level monk probably should not have tried to hit the fighter until after he had tripped and disarmed him during round surprise from stealth. Then run away and sneak back to do it again later.
- Monsters with touch attacks.
- Combine tremor sense and deeper darkness.
- Spells that don't have a save or target his low save. Iron will only gives you a +2, that is not much at 11th level.
- A barbarian with improved sunder.
- A archer on a flying dragon shooting brilliant energy arrows.
- Have a rogue plant evidence of a crime on him.
- Mission is to save not kill someone.
- Mission is to make friends not kill.
- Mission is to investigate whatever.
- Enemies too fast for him to easily catch, but the lightly armored barbarian and super fast monk can.
- Suprise attack while sleeping so he needs to fight without his armor.
- Invisible summoner floods the area with lantern archons.
- Challenged to an honor duel only light armor, rapiers, and daggers are allowed in this country.
- Caught cheating in a dice game (it was a setup to get his stuff)
- Bad guys use terrain, shooting from heights while party has to cross slick stairs, get through maze, stuck in quicksand.
- Magical traps.
- Don't use single stupid monsters or mooks, use an opposing party. A barbarian who is getting buffed/healed by a cleric, bard is using performance to enhance them all, and an invisible rogue is maneuvering for a massive sneak attack.

Don't use everything all the time. Don't just pick on one PC. But sometimes an intelligent enemy may observe or spy on the group and plan what is needed to deal with them.


in all honesty it seems like your just mad that the fighter is min maxed and is being effective and is rule slamming you. I agree that as a DM you should beable to give the party challenging encounters, but hopefully doesn't kill the PCs (depending on the Boss of course lol). But it also seems like your just mad for not being able to hit the fighter at all. It's a well built character, as a DM give em something that DOESN'T GO FOR AC and do Touch attacks or saves.

There are meany ways to break a character, but they also have a weakness to something. Shouldn't get mad from a player just being a "Bad ass" just go with it, put the PC in his place. If this is a RP campaign and he's not even involved, why bother having him? I bet you that the other two wouldn't mind playing 2 characters each just to enjoy a game. Besides, you and 2 others will make the encounters go way faster.


This is YOUR campaign with your house rules. Make Crane Wing a monk only ability that can’t be used when armor is worn. Then ban the Master of Many Styles archetype (which is completely broken imo). Combat Styles should be monk only, and they are in my AP campaign.

Also, you need a free hand to use Crane Wing, so is the fighter using a 1H weapon? He can’t be doing that much damage if he is, even if he does hit all the time. And why is his AC so high (I’m assuming his AC is 35+)? Are you applying only the maximum Dex bonus based on his armor type? Read some threads on PCs with high ACs, a high AC doesn’t mean everything, you can still use combat maneuvers, spells, etc.

Maybe you are giving out too much treasure or your point buy is too high and that’s why you’re getting a powerful PC? I don’t think you should be mad just because this guy knows how to build PCs and your other players don’t.

You could always talk to him and ask him to tone it down, to be more in line with the power of the other 2 PCs. Or ask those players to optimize a little more so they don’t get smoked so easily. Either way.

Also, consider this. Your encounters are tough enough that they take down 2 of your 3 PCs and it’s the fighter that stops a TPK from happening. If he wasn’t there or he also sucked, then your campaign would be over.

Also, fighters almost always hit creatures their level on their first attacks. Mine does. I just can’t roll a “1”. Still, there is more to encounters than just hitting with your first attack, especially if he is only hitting with a 1H weapon, which is what’s needed if he’s using Crane Style!


First of all, this isnt an in game problem. You dont solve this by using touch attacks or will saves. This is a personality conflict. The player wants you to be a computer game (follow a strict set of rules he can calculate his way to overpowering). Not ok. Calmly tell him he should back off, or he can find somewhere else to play.

As for what to do about just 2 players, first of all, it is entirely probably if you look (either at a local gaming store or here on gamer connection or another dozen sites) you'll find a player or two willing to join your game.

But if your not, games can work with 2 players. Simply using the 3.5 gestalt rules (google the 3.5 srd for details) can make a game feasible with 2 players. Especially if one half of the 2 players is either a druid, or a summoner (or a similar pet character such as a ranger with the boon companion feat or a sorceror with the sylvan bloodline). The barb oracle could go summoner, and the monk could go druid. Then you have 2 characters with a wider array of abilities (presumably covering what is needed since this is a homebrew game) and the added 'pets' make up signficantly for just having 2 players. Problem solved you can have mostly normal encounters with just your 2 non-obnoxious players.

That said, this can potentially be solved with a person to person conversation with the player. I have before chaffed with a dm who boosts his monosters specifically to overcome my character abilities (I once had a campaign in which the enemies successfully resisted 64 single target spells and abilities that required a save in a row...i kept track over almost a year of gaming).

When I pointed it out, the dm explained that he had been boosting saves to strengthen encounters against a powered up party (we were pretty heavy optimizers back then), so I asked if he would consider adding monsters instead of boosting individuals a portion of the time, so I could get in more of my spells (I was playing a 3.5 beguiler at the time and pretty much all of it was save or lose which obviously was my dms concern). We worked it out between us and adjusted both of our expectations. But there was obviously a bit of mistrust that lay between us or it wouldnt have happened in the first place. You might want to see about resolving that sort of issue with your player (or maybe he is just a jerk in which case boot him).


Sounds like your player is a bit immature. I had a similar problem with a min-maxed summoner on a previous campaign, but the player was willing to work with me and unpleasant to GM for at all, he was just a bit too good at building a character.

Now, don't take this as blaming you for any of these issues (the player is being disruptive, not you,) but I don't think you should be cheating extra feats and such on your monsters/enemies. Instead you should modify them by the rules, such as adding extra hit dice, templates, or class levels. This increases their CR, and when your player complains that the monster isn't as shown in the bestiary, you can just tell him its an advanced variant monster. Players shouldn't have a reason to complain if they understand that they are getting better XP for the tougher creatures.
Which brings up another issue. How does he have such encyclopedic knowledge of the enemies? If he is looking enemies up at the table, that is not cool. There is a method for PC's to get info on monsters, knowledge checks. If they are getting and using any info straight from websites or books that's cheating.

When it comes to a player doing too much damage, I'd switch creatures to Max HP per hit die and swap something unnecessary for the toughness feat. Characters can start to do an unreal amount of damage at these levels, so let them. Besides the higher HP enemies, use larger numbers of enemies. This also provides targets for your other players, so the min-maxed PC doesn't kill them all.

The troublesome part is high AC players. If you make an enemy that can hit them reliably it's pretty much an auto-hit on the other PC's. The best thing to do is use abilities that don't hit AC. Combat maneuvers, touch spells, incorporeal enemies. There's lots of things that can bypass the high AC. Being knocked prone provides a -4 to AC, which is pretty huge.

Double check his build. There's a lot of things that seem legal but don't stand up to detailed rules scrutiny.

You mentioned he'd literally min-maxed his stats. One of my house rules when using point buy is not to let players tank anything to 7, and only one stat can be at an 8.

But all of that is secondary. The major problem is the player being disruptive, hostile and generally a jerk. I'd talk with your other players privately and discuss his attitude. If they feel the same and aren't having fun kick him out. He's not worth the headache.


Just because this is a homebrew campaign doesn't mean you can change the rules. yeah some things can be housed ruled, but not everything. You can give your encounters higher CR, templetes, class levels. why break rules just beacuse you can't kill a fighter that built a well rounded character.

If you honestly didn't want him to mid max, then house rule it. end of story. House rule books, end of story. If it's that frusterating, don't invite him again. But even if he's book slamming you, it must also be to help you to become a better DM maybe (just thinking outside the box people there's always a other side from this one).


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Fourth, there are lots of easy ways to challenge ANY build. Give us a few more specifics on his build and people here will line up to give you buhzillion ideas. Just a few quick ideas:
- The 12th level monk probably should not have tried to hit the fighter until after he had tripped and disarmed him during round surprise from stealth. Then run away and sneak back to do it again later.
- Monsters with touch attacks.
- Combine tremor sense and deeper darkness.
- Spells that don't have a save or target his low save. Iron will only gives you a +2, that is not much at 11th level.
- A barbarian with improved sunder.
- A archer on a flying dragon shooting brilliant energy arrows.
- Have a rogue plant evidence of a crime on him.
- Mission is to save not kill someone.
- Mission is to make friends not kill.
- Mission is to investigate whatever.
- Enemies too fast for him to easily catch, but the lightly armored barbarian and super fast monk can.
- Suprise attack while sleeping so he needs to fight without his armor.
- Invisible summoner floods the area with lantern archons.
- Challenged to an honor duel only light armor, rapiers, and daggers are allowed in this country.
- Caught cheating in a dice game (it was a setup to get his stuff)
- Bad guys...

His build is mainly built around being tough to hit, while still being able to hit rather easily.

He has a high dex, moderate strength, moderate con, low cha, low wis, low int.

He uses his bow first, then drops it and moves in to hit with his keen katana with improved critical (crits on like a 15) and has an attack bonus total of +21/+16/+11.

Then with his AC of 39, most monsters can't hit him without being too far above the CR. His touch is also pretty high due to the dex. Then the monsters that do manage to hit him, he blocks with crane wing, and soon will crane wing riposte, where he gets AOO's for them getting blocked.

He also tends to throw smoke sticks to get concealment and move around that way. In our last encounter he threw a couple, got into a river and slowly moved his way around the back and threw more so the archer couldn't hit him.

Then the archer had to engage in melee or else we would have been there all night. The melee could only hit on high bab and he would crane wing. Then he would just wail on the guy till he won. Barbarian was unconscious. Monk was unconscious. Fighter ended with 83 HP

Dark Archive

Right off the bat: Keen and Improved Critical do not stack, he CAN'T have a good Will Save, and look up the Allip.

But seriously, other than the player's attitude, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. You can't challenge a Fighter with stuff in Melee. It is what they do.

I would hate to see what he could do with something serious, like a Summoner.


RedEric wrote:

Sounds like your player is a bit immature. I had a similar problem with a min-maxed summoner on a previous campaign, but the player was willing to work with me and unpleasant to GM for at all, he was just a bit too good at building a character.

Now, don't take this as blaming you for any of these issues (the player is being disruptive, not you,) but I don't think you should be cheating extra feats and such on your monsters/enemies. Instead you should modify them by the rules, such as adding extra hit dice, templates, or class levels. This increases their CR, and when your player complains that the monster isn't as shown in the bestiary, you can just tell him its an advanced variant monster. Players shouldn't have a reason to complain if they understand that they are getting better XP for the tougher creatures.
Which brings up another issue. How does he have such encyclopedic knowledge of the enemies? If he is looking enemies up at the table, that is not cool. There is a method for PC's to get info on monsters, knowledge checks. If they are getting and using any info straight from websites or books that's cheating.

When it comes to a player doing too much damage, I'd switch creatures to Max HP per hit die and swap something unnecessary for the toughness feat. Characters can start to do an unreal amount of damage at these levels, so let them. Besides the higher HP enemies, use larger numbers of enemies. This also provides targets for your other players, so the min-maxed PC doesn't kill them all.

The troublesome part is high AC players. If you make an enemy that can hit them reliably it's pretty much an auto-hit on the other PC's. The best thing to do is use abilities that don't hit AC. Combat maneuvers, touch spells, incorporeal enemies. There's lots of things that can bypass the high AC. Being knocked prone provides a -4 to AC, which is pretty huge.

Double check his build. There's a lot of things that seem legal but don't stand up to detailed rules scrutiny.

You mentioned...

He doesn't use books during the session, but after he WINS then begins complaining. It shouldn't have had this, or that, or that's wrong. At that point though there is no point to the argument. He already won, the thing is dead.


"Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you."

Make sure he's actually fighting defensively when using crane wing, as well as having one hand free. A Katana is only a one handed weapon if he has the exotic weapon proficiency with it, and using it one handed should lower his damage. My understanding of crane style means that he needs one hand free the whole time he is fighting defensively, not just after he's done attacking.

His touch AC shouldn't be so high that casters can't hit it, even with all those dodge bonus. If necessary, casters of appropriate CR should be able to cast true strike (or better yet, quickened true strike) before zapping him with some ray attacks. Consider they can also use a targeted dispel on rings of protection to lower his touch AC. Calcific tough is a good dex debuff spell, makes a great combo with spectral hand.


Is he only using a 1H weapon or not? If he doesn't not have a free hand he cannot use Crane Wing.

He cannot use Crane Wing while using a bow either RAW. Also, Crane Wing doesn't work against ranged attacks.

His attack bonuses are not out of line, my 10th level fighter is better than that. But... my AC is only 25 (full plate +2). I would double check all of his AC numbers. Crane Wing should only give +4 AC when active.

If you know how he got an AC of 39, post it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Again the real problem is not with your encounters. It is the relation ship between you and the player. You really need to have a conversation with him first.

Quote:
...He is very demanding, and aggressive in his demands...he takes the AC or strength or BAB of the monster and throws it back in my face saying it's against the rules, I'm a bad DM and don't know the basics... I get the rule book slammed in my face for 2 straight days via text...He just doesn't care. For some reason it's not getting through to him...

We can give you lots of advice on dealing with a build. But that is not your primary problem. And it won't do any good at all until you have a talk and work out a compromise between the 2 of you.

I would say things along the lines of:
"Look lets have a civil adult conversation. No temper tantrums.
- No I am not perfect on the rules. No one including you is perfect. I try and I hope I'm getting better. Getting yelled at, attacked, and insulted by you is not helping.
- However, I am not breaking the rules. There is no reason there can't be some rare mountain weasel that has a higher dexterity than the usual weasel that people often see.
- If you don't like upgraded monsters I can just use higher level monsters straight out of the book, but that will be even harder for you to deal with because that could introduce new abilities that you are not yet equiped to deal with.
- It is my job to build encounters that challenge the group. I will keep trying to do that in different ways. If you have suggestions on other ways to do that, they are welcome. Childish fits are not."

AFTER you have had that conversation and an agreement to compromise between the 2 of you. THEN we can help you build encounters to challenge the group.

--------------------------------------------------------

To really help you build encounters we need more specifics.
What are his abilities (numbers not high and low)?
What feats did he take?
What gear does he have? (Sounds like you are saying he has +16 ac just due to gear, that seems a bit high for this level.)
Dexterity alone can not give all that great of a touch AC. What else does he have?

Smoke sticks are mostly a low level indoor tool. They do not instantly fill the country side with smoke. Archer should be much more mobile than an armored tank. The fighter should really never be much threat to him. Smoke in the area. Ok, move back to another hidden sniping position.

He drops his bow? Have a gargoyle waiting to swoop in and fly off with it.

Do you have the 3 of them fighting 1 opponent? Yes, then it will be hard to make it a challenge for them. Especially not evenly across all of them.

Have a bunch of mid level assisstants using aid another. If the BBEG has an extra +8 on his to hit rolls that can make a huge difference.

Remember the class is called the 'FIGHTER' for a reason! That is what it is best at. And a player has to work fairly hard to make them good at anything else. Is you campaign just a series of fights? Yes, then he will tend to do better than the others. Put in a murder mystery. Or a guard the princess who really wants to run away and elope with her commoner boyfriend.


CoBAWolf wrote:


He uses his bow first, then drops it and moves in to hit with his keen katana with improved critical (crits on like a 15) and has an attack bonus total of +21/+16/+11.

Keen and crit feats don't stack for one. But that crit threat might be right anyways. or is the katana a 19-20? if so should be a 17-20.


its 18-20 so with improved its 16-20 so he is a bit off.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I have to agree with all those who suggested throwing something that targets will saves in there. Heck, just throw in a wizard with a bunch of mooks and have the wizard cast "Hold Person" (or have a witch cast "Sleep"). AC doesn't help against Coup de Grace.

I echo the other posters in wanting to take a glance at his build. +16 AC from gear (as Kydeem postulated) is possible, but generally that would entail allowing his touch AC to dip quite a bit as he relies on full plate and natural armor bonuses. Also, assuming regular WBL, focusing on defense that much should limit his offensive capabilities.

Not knowing your campaign, it is hard to give good advice concerning how to challenge him appropriately within the confines of whatever story you are weaving. One thing to do is to make sure he is roleplaying his stats. Using smokesticks to provide cover as he approaches an archer? That could be ruled as too smart for a 7 Int/7 Wis fighter. Basically, call him out when he does what would qualify as advanced tactics. If he dumped his mental stats, he should not be a master tactician. He built a big dumb fighter, make sure he plays one. Throw social/skill challenges at the group. Combats with difficult terrain or terrain that require acrobatics/climb/swim usage. Convincing a ridiculously powerful enemy not to fight them. The fighter excels at fighting, and he has optimized his character as such. However, focus a bit more on non-combat stuff and things should balance out a bit.

The core problem, though, is not IC but OOC. It sounds like the player has an abrasive personality and playstyle that doesn't mesh with your group at all. Continually questioning the GM and repeatable complaining about things like, "that enemy shouldn't have had such high AC" is incredibly rude, and in my opinion, completely unacceptable. If speaking with him doesn't work (and it sounds like it hasn't), there may be no other option but to bid him farewell.


Wind Chime wrote:
its 18-20 so with improved its 16-20 so he is a bit off.

Actually 18-20 with improved critical OR keen IS 15-20, you double from 18-20 (which crits on 18/19/20 - 3 numbers to 15/16/17/18/19/20 - 6 numbers which is doubled). Note that Keen & Improved Critical DO NOT stack so the best anyone can get is the 18-20 weapon to drop it down to 15-20.

Liberty's Edge

Monkey D. Dragon wrote:
I'm really at the end of my rope here. I don't know what else to do.

So ask yourself. Is this an enjoyable aspect of the game for you? Obviously no. Why then would you subject yourself to it? The other player is bullying you, plain and simple. The result is that you are giving up your enjoyment of the game over his. Don't.

If you want to give him a chance, take him aside and tell him that you've had enough of the arm-chair GMing. If he can't control himself, tell him that his rule mongering and aggressive attitude are just too much and that you no longer wish to GM him.

I understand that you only have three players and that you see loosing one as hurting the game. Why let this be a determining factor in you enjoying the game? If anything, handwave the current adventure by narrating it and then tool the next adventure for 2-3 characters. Maybe by the time the adventure is over, you will find another player...or your bullying player may decide to behave and you can give him another probationary chance.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I would say things along the lines of:
"Look lets have a civil adult conversation. No temper tantrums.
- No I am not perfect on the rules. No one including you is perfect. I try and I hope I'm getting better. Getting yelled at, attacked, and insulted by you is not helping.
- However, I am not breaking the rules. There is no reason there can't be some rare mountain weasel that has a higher dexterity than the usual weasel that people often see.
- If you don't like upgraded monsters I can just use higher level monsters straight out of the book, but that will be even harder for you to deal with because that could introduce new abilities that you are not yet equiped to deal with.
- It is my job to build encounters that challenge the group. I will keep trying to do that in different ways. If you have suggestions on other ways to do that, they are welcome. Childish fits are not."

I just started a conversation along these lines with him we'll see how it goes. But I've decided since it upsets the player when I do custom creatures to just stick closer if not strictly to the rules, since some of the other players have made it clear to me now that they aren't exactly fond of them either. I can still make it work, just not by bending the rules. I know I'm allowed to bend the rules...but it's just not a good practice.


So I was going to say "you need to fully audit his character build, ensure that his tactical maneuvers in combat are fully legal and use terrain and tactics to keep him from doing full attacks" or stuff like that.

But the reality is that this is not a game problem, it's a player problem. You have tried to be reasonable with him and he has refused to be reasonable.

It's time to introduce him to the door.


CoBAWolf wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

Fourth, there are lots of easy ways to challenge ANY build. Give us a few more specifics on his build and people here will line up to give you buhzillion ideas. Just a few quick ideas:
- The 12th level monk probably should not have tried to hit the fighter until after he had tripped and disarmed him during round surprise from stealth. Then run away and sneak back to do it again later.
- Monsters with touch attacks.
- Combine tremor sense and deeper darkness.
- Spells that don't have a save or target his low save. Iron will only gives you a +2, that is not much at 11th level.
- A barbarian with improved sunder.
- A archer on a flying dragon shooting brilliant energy arrows.
- Have a rogue plant evidence of a crime on him.
- Mission is to save not kill someone.
- Mission is to make friends not kill.
- Mission is to investigate whatever.
- Enemies too fast for him to easily catch, but the lightly armored barbarian and super fast monk can.
- Suprise attack while sleeping so he needs to fight without his armor.
- Invisible summoner floods the area with lantern archons.
- Challenged to an honor duel only light armor, rapiers, and daggers are allowed in this country.
- Caught cheating in a dice game (it was a setup to get his stuff)
- Bad guys...

His build is mainly built around being tough to hit, while still being able to hit rather easily.

He has a high dex, moderate strength, moderate con, low cha, low wis, low int.

He uses his bow first, then drops it and moves in to hit with his keen katana with improved critical (crits on like a 15) and has an attack bonus total of +21/+16/+11.

Then with his AC of 39, most monsters can't hit him without being too far above the CR. His touch is also pretty high due to the dex. Then the monsters that do manage to hit him, he blocks with crane wing, and soon will crane wing riposte, where he gets AOO's for them getting blocked.

He also tends to throw smoke sticks to get concealment and move...

If you want to include the other players, include more noncombat encounters.

Traps, skill checks and diplomacy will all give your other players a chance to shine.

Grand Lodge

I just want to say this, because it the most important thing to remember:

A PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE APPROACH WILL FAIL!!


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I just want to say this, because it the most important thing to remember:

A PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE APPROACH WILL FAIL!!

Exactly.

Get mad and show him two things.

A.) Your war face. Grrrrrrr!

B.) The door. He's the problem here, not his character. There are always ways to "beat" an "optimized" character, not last on the list being to audit his build and make sure everything is set up right. But there's no way to sew up a spewing a!*&!%+ without everybody getting covered in fecal matter, and that's no fun for anybody.


CoBAWolf wrote:

His build is mainly built around being tough to hit, while still being able to hit rather easily.

He has a high dex, moderate strength, moderate con, low cha, low wis, low int.

So he has no skills, and his Will save should suck, Iron Will or not. At most he has base saves for a fighter, +2 with a re-roll. That's not insurmountable, especially if you use a bespoke caster. A bard would be ideal, buffing foes and casting charm spells on him.

CoBAWolf wrote:

He uses his bow first, then drops it and moves in to hit with his keen katana with improved critical (crits on like a 15) and has an attack bonus total of +21/+16/+11.

Then with his AC of 39, most monsters can't hit him without being too far above the CR. His touch is also pretty high due to the dex. Then the monsters that do manage to hit him, he blocks with crane wing, and soon will crane wing riposte, where he gets AOO's for them getting blocked.

So he uses incredibly sophisticated tactics even though he has the mental attributes of a dunce. Every time he wants to use an attack form that works against a particular foe, or a tactic he hasn't used before DEMAND an Intelligence check for his character to think of that. If he whines, tell him you're having to act to stop metagaming. Remind him that he's chosen to play an idiot, he needs to suck it up that idiots don't think of sophisticated tactics.

As for his AC, remember that fighting defensively is a FULL ROUND ACTION. He cannot use it if he moves, and that means no AC bonus and no deflected attack. Also remember that armour restricts dexterity bonus to AC, and that like bonuses do not stack. Remember that a buckler does NOT count as having a hand free.

For example, mithral plate armour (+9) allows only +2 from Dex (to +11), Dodge adds another +1 for AC 22 so far. That means he must be getting +13 from armour enhancement bonus, amulet of natural armour, and ring of protection. Touch AC should be only 13+RoP bonus.


Dabbler wrote:


For example, mithral plate armour (+9) allows only +2 from Dex (to +11), Dodge adds another +1 for AC 22 so far. That means he must be getting +13 from armour enhancement bonus, amulet of natural armour, and ring of protection. Touch AC should be only 13+RoP bonus.

Just to point something out he's a fighter. Unless he traded out armor training a mithral plate armour at level 11 is a +6 max dex. even if he wasn't a fighter Plate armour has a normal +1 max and mithral would bring it to +3.

so it would be 9 + 6 + 1 + 10 = 26 Not to mention he's probably running with the fighter trait for +1 armor while in medium or heavy armor for +1 to 27.

Edit:

Just to make things easy, if you didn't control how he spent his wbl a +3/+2 amulet, a +2/+3 ring, and a +3 Mithral plate armor will have cost him in the area of 45,500 gp. this would give him an ac of 35 or 39 with the crane style chain and fighting defensively.

Its spending wildly too much on defense but I'm more than willing to bet any one of his saves (other than fort) is absolute crap by now. toss an entangle or some will saves at him. Trust me, he'll fail 90% of them. In short, "KICK HIM IN THE CROTCH! THE CROTCH MAN!"

Grand Lodge

Yep.

Still lots of good passive-aggressive approaches suggested.

None of them will work.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yep.

Still lots of good passive-aggressive approaches suggested.

None of them will work.

Agreement is had BBT. I know it won't stop him actually being an ass. Most people here are in agreement that since talking to him doesn't seem to be stopping him being an ass, nothing will.

Still, if he isn't going to boot the player may as well stomp on his horribly horribly low will save.


Thomas Long 175 wrote:

Just to point something out he's a fighter. Unless he traded out armor training a mithral plate armour at level 11 is a +6 max dex. even if he wasn't a fighter Plate armour has a normal +1 max and mithral would bring it to +3.

so it would be 9 + 6 + 1 + 10 = 26 Not to mention he's probably running with the fighter trait for +1 armor while in medium or heavy armor for +1 to 27.

Ah, my bad then! I completely forgot armour training (shows how often I play fighters). All the same his touch AC is way lower than his normal AC.

That said, there are plenty of options other than this for dealing with him. What if you have a henchemen with an adamantine greatsword trying to Sunder his katana? Or a rogue flanking him and going for a Steal on his amulet of natural armour? A trip-o-matic, disarming monk is a great foe for this kind of fighter, he attacks: they deflect (crane style works for bad guys too), then they trip until he falls, and disarm until he has no weapon (while prone he is at -4 to his CMD). They get AoO's if he tries to stand, and disarm again.

...all of which is bypassing the point that the player is the problem. He doesn't like that you make foes tougher, is determined to 'win' the game, and metagames like hell. This isn't going to change unless you get him to knock it off, or he leaves.


I think most of us agree that a conversation about out of game play style and polite behavior is necessary.
CoBAWolf just said he is trying to have a discussion with him.

Not all of the suggestions are a passive aggressive attack.

They were an attempt to give an inexperienced GM ideas on how to deal with a particular character concept after an agreement has been reached between the GM and player.


GoldEdition42 wrote:

1. Borrow his character sheet and copy it.

2. Add a goatee.

3. Have Mr. Fighter meet himself in a dark alley.

May the best man win.

1.5 Add 2 levels.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Player Troubles All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice