Customer Service Manager
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Due to the nature of kickstarter, refunds are not something that Goblinworks is able to provide. Kickstarter pledges are donations, meant to invest in a project and aren't refundable due to a lack of interest in the project. As the Kickstarter FAQ says, "Backing a project is more than just giving someone money, it's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."
thanks
sara marie
Goblin Squad Member
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Due to the nature of kickstarter, refunds are not something that Goblinworks is able to provide. Kickstarter pledges are donations, meant to invest in a project and aren't refundable due to a lack of interest in the project. As the Kickstarter FAQ says, "Backing a project is more than just giving someone money, it's supporting their dream to create something that they want to see exist in the world."
thanks
sara marie
Kickstarter projects are also supposed to accurately portray the project and rewards, not provide false information designed to lure people into a project and rip them off.
It is sad that a company as reputable as paizo has chosen to join up with blatant bait n switch rip off artists like goblinworks.
I will follow the claim procedure through amazon payments and my cedit card company since you have no intention to act in good faith with your customers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is the game being discussed different from the game as it was advertised on Kickstarter? I really haven't noticed that much of a difference. I think they discussed the MMO having both microtransaction and subscription aspects during. And they have been up front about the PvP aspects.
How do you feel the currently discussed MMO differs from what was presented on Kickstarter?
Caveat: I supported the Kickstarter to get the Paizo print product, so I really didn't look that deeply into the MMO side. And I'm just kinda curious... since you posted this publicly and everything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The kickstarter was presented as pathfinder online, with only general information in many cases as to how the game was going to actually function.
They relied on Paizo's reputation and the Pathfinder name brand to sell the product.
My contention is that GW deliberatley provided false or misleading information in order to dupe investors into the game system.
The comparision I would make would be to a shady used car salesman, but that would probably be slander against the car salesman.
I'll try to list the main issues, albeit not the only issues.
Crowdforging - one of the main rewards offered for the MMO itself was the ability to be part of the crowdforging process and have a voice in the development process. It was implied that we would have the ability to influence the world during the design phase. After release it was revealed that all we get is the ability to pick and choose the order features GW has total control over with no real influence or input from us will be implemented.
Paid Beta Testing - The other reward offered was access to the Paid Beta Testing, or after it was discovered that the phrase "paid beta testing" was a deal breaker for many investors the renamed "early Access"
This was supposed to be a 9 month period of a "game ready world" for players to explore, build settlements, create a crafting economy, and populate the game world with content. Keep in mind, while this game is advertised as free to play, you only pay for training and that can be bought with in game money AFTER release, you have to pay a monthly subscription to continued ater your 4 mos time is up ($75 to finish the 9 months)
What is is NOW is an 18 month period ($210 to finish the 18 months assuming the typical $15 a month) which is a significant increase in the cost of a "free to play game". In fact it takes them right into the exact "failed model" they said they were going to avoid of every other game, release pay to play and go free to play about 18 mos later when the game is proven to be unsustainable on a pay to play model.
In addition, while they were very careful to never state exactly what a "game ready world" would be they did imply a lot of stuff, most of which I feel they have now come back and said will NOT be part of early enrolement (or the paid beta test) and may NEVER be part of the game.
Bounty System - During the kickstarter they proposed a real workable bounty system to counter griefing and rampant random ganking pvp in order to quell the concerns many players, like myself, had about a pvp oriented game. After they had everyones money they revised the bounty to its current state turnign it into a paper tiger. Something they can wave about and say "look we have a bounty system to discourage griefing, random ganking" when in fact it will be utterly useless.
Instead of being able to place a bounty on the head of a person who killed you available to multiple persons or companys of your choice and continually renew said bountye ach time the person died if you so chose.
You must now gota a mailbox (minutes, hours or even days away?) and place a contract for a bounty. Someone else must now travel to that EXACT same mailbox (again, minutes, hours or days away) and once one PERSON accepts the bounty contract NO ONE ELSE CAN. If the contract is not fulfilled in specified amount of time (I beleive 1 day) you must return to the mailbox and repost it again and the bounty hunter must ALSO return to the exact same mailbox and accept it, at which point no one else can.
In short, there are too many hoops to jump through and too small of a chance of a bounty hunter catching anyone in the short timeframe they have to ever make this a working system or a real deterent to griefing.
Its now just a system to use as a talking to point try to con new players into thinking they have a chance.
Twitch Combat - It was clearly stated that GW would NOT employ twitch style combat. I'm 48 years old, I have borderline carpel tunnel so this was VERY VERY important to me.
The last described combat system is TWITCH STYLE BUTTON MASHING COMBAT, i.e. I will physically be unable to play this game.
I could go on but theres little point.
Paizo has made it clear they support GW's lies and fraud and have no problem ripping of there loyal customers (or formerly loyal in my case) .
At this point my ony option is to continue to do business with people I now consider to be little better then the scum of the earth (or used car salesman, you make the call which is worse) in order to continue playing the TT game I enjoy or vote with my $ and cancel all my subscriptions and pathfinder related purchases (adding in minis and stuff bought at the local store to support them as well as on the paizo site approx $200 - $250 a month).
I'll let you know what I decide.
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Man are you making tons and tons of assumptions. Considering you have never played the game at this point. Even if you HAVE played the game in beta... it is BETA and by it's very nature subject to change and redux.
Goblinworks is not lying to you in the least. They have supported everything that they have said. The comments you are making is not even on the kickstarter. They have mentioned micro-transactions and such and talked about the world being fully integrated in to the setting with the players being able to change it to a degree that has not really been done before in other MMO's
Again... unless you have played in it you are making way to many assumptions here and we all know what happens when you assume.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is not GW or Paizo's fault that you did not do proper research.
Using words like 'Fraud' and calling KS backers 'investors' may work to get a rise out of general voting population, but we are more refined here and can see a steaming pile when it is dropped before us.
Can we get these posts replaced with the word 'twadle' so someone doesn't read them and think they carry any factual accuracy.
I can not convey how much in incredibly poor taste this OP is.
I could link a few images of panicking ponies. Ponies tend to improve these sorts of threads.
I'm curious, though. What would the OP have preferred Goblin Squad members get? "Input" on the design process? Normal posters are already giving input. GW is making decisions based off what the community (and therefore the GS) thinks is a good idea--with some reservations, obviously. The Squad members then get a bit of extra input on when features get released.
Saying the Goblin Squad should get to influence the world during the design phase implies that non-Goblin Squad posters won't. That's not how Paizo works, and it's not how PFO has worked so far.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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For someone with such bad carpal tunnel, you type very prodigiously.
I have reviewed every major complaint you have made regarding not-as-advertised, and I believe both that it was clear that the rules were under development and that the evolution that you object to is incidental to what was described as the core purpose for the rules.
I'm going to guess you pledged at the pioneer level? If so, I, a private person not affiliated with any business entity, will buy out your interest in PFO and Kickstarter rewards for $100, provided you never again complain in a public forum about your perceived injustice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For someone with such bad carpal tunnel, you type very prodigiously.
As has been pointed out previously, we also know he blatantly lies and then refuses to acknowledge the lie when confronted with it.
Paid Beta Testing - This was supposed to be a 9 month period of a "game ready world"...
Here is a post from Ryan midway through the Kickstarter, stating the time frames around Beta testing. He states a MINIMUM of 18 months testing.
Not that I necessarily agree with you, Deanoth, but I do notice he doesn't exactly have a tag under his name for being member of the Goblin Squad. Is there something I'm missing there? It could just be his many other tags cover it up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you feel that the second kickstarter project was misleading the wise thing to do would take it up to kickstarter and write in a formal complaint. Anything else is unproductive and leads to the kind of response your posts usually get.
The problem with this is the Kickstarter program/website has nothing to do with the kickstarters on there. I believe it's more of just a host for idea/funding. They cant actually do anything about the "kickstarter" itself. Then again, I could be wrong, this is just how I thought it worked
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am sure that it doesn't need to be said... but we all knew we were backing a game that could drastically change. They could do some really crazy stuff, and not everyone will like it. I am prepared to play it, and give it a good try. So far, I like what I hear, but I am adult and I can handle the fact that I might not like the game. If that is the case, I will have enjoyed the journey, despite the destination. That really is all we can do with life experiences. Take the positive, leave the negative, and move on.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm.
<looks up>
<looks at Summersnow's avatar>
Not a backer.To be fair, Summersnow is a backer for the second Kickstarter. Since those pledges haven't been processed yet, none of those Kickstarter backers have their forum bling yet.
-Lisa
Hey Lisa, can you refund him and let me buy his stuff?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you feel that the second kickstarter project was misleading the wise thing to do would take it up to kickstarter and write in a formal complaint. Anything else is unproductive and leads to the kind of response your posts usually get.The problem with this is the Kickstarter program/website has nothing to do with the kickstarters on there. I believe it's more of just a host for idea/funding. They cant actually do anything about the "kickstarter" itself. Then again, I could be wrong, this is just how I thought it worked
Kickstarter has taken actions based on complaints in the past. And while i'm not saying that there is anything wrong with GW's second kickstarter Kickstarter the webside, as you put it, are the neutral thritd party in this transaction you direct complaints at if you feel that anything is wrong. Also I think it's save to assume that a platform holder like Kickstarter has controll over his own platform.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Forum Moderator, Summersnow wrote "At this point my ony option is to continue to do business with people I now consider to be little better then the scum of the earth............... "
This type of abusive talk is not allowed on the forum and I would like to see this person disciplined. Plus they are so full of it....it sounds like deliberate lying to stir up trouble.No one agrees with person.Anyway calling others "scum" has to stopped, please.
I've noticed Paizo staff sometimes prefer not to discipline people for being abusive to the company, wishing to avoid giving the impression that anybody who criticizes them will be silenced. It's a noble idea, though I agree with NMRN here--Summersnow is going too far.
