1st round it just picks up IF there is aura. so they walk within 60' of coin, facing said direction, it would suddenly go. AURA! they have to spend an action (std i think) to concentrate on the spell to keep it up, unless is a constant effect. For this though, either is the same.
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Just so you know, I'm running a campaign right now and the party literally has at least one character with "detect magic" going every waking moment. So this idea that 'well, they wouldn't have detect magic going all the time' is clearly not true in that case.
Maybe worth a thread, if there hasn't been a good one already, on brainstorming the techniques and tactics of a world almost all full spellcasters have the option of permanent detect magic at first level.
Hmm. Cursed item of detect magic in a cone pointing straight into the floor. Hmmm.
I don't understand anyone who is saying it "negates" Invisibility. Getting a 50% miss chance on attacks against you is an awesome buff and nothing about Detect Magic negates that part.
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Huh. Not sure I'd want to be the guy with detect magic up all the time.
"yes there are auras"
3 rounds later - just the party's spells and equipment
moves...
"yes there are auras"
3 rounds later - still just the party stuff now in a new location
moves...
Repeat until you get tired of it.
The caster would have to constantly face away from the party or else keep detecting "benign" auras all the time. never mind losing half your speed due to spending a standard action to either concentrate or cast every round. Every time the caster move a new cone is being scanned and the 3 round timer starts over, even on the group's stuff. Mr. caster wouldn't even detect an invisible person in the midst of the party for three full rounds unless the spell was more powerful the highest level magic item in the group.
It's not broken to let detect magic see magically invisible creatures if you actually follow the rules for detect magic and concentration.
though, what would presto detect as? and can cast non attack spells. distract caster. provoke con check.
Huh. Not sure I'd want to be the guy with detect magic up all the time.
"yes there are auras"
3 rounds later - just the party's spells and equipment
moves..."yes there are auras"
3 rounds later - still just the party stuff now in a new location
moves...Repeat until you get tired of it.
The caster would have to constantly face away from the party or else keep detecting "benign" auras all the time. never mind losing half your speed due to spending a standard action to either concentrate or cast every round. Every time the caster move a new cone is being scanned and the 3 round timer starts over, even on the group's stuff. Mr. caster wouldn't even detect an invisible person in the midst of the party for three full rounds unless the spell was more powerful the highest level magic item in the group.
It's not broken to let detect magic see magically invisible creatures if you actually follow the rules for detect magic and concentration.
I can't and won't speak for other parties or GM's but If I did that to my players I would able to get away with it once. All it would take is a "As we explore these rooms I will take the lead and the others will stay out of my line of site for 18 seconds initially" spoken by a caster and that would be a non-issue after that.
Back on topic, I can't think of a reason I wouldn't allow detect magic to detect the auras of guys who are invisible due to a magic spell. It would be difficult to even pick up an aura of any invisible person unless he is standing still.
a squishy leading the party... we call our dm "meany" for a reason...
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I can't and won't speak for other parties or GM's but If I did that to my players I would able to get away with it once. All it would take is a "As we explore these rooms I will take the lead and the others will stay out of my line of site for 18 seconds initially" spoken by a caster and that would be a non-issue after that.
Back on topic, I can't think of a reason I wouldn't allow detect magic to detect the auras of guys who are invisible due to a magic spell. It would be difficult to even pick up an aura of any invisible person unless he is standing still.
Your player sound a lot like my players. They probably are also smart enough to send the rogue ahead, in stealth mode, just in front of the range of Detect Magic to help keep the guy doing the detecting from serving as the front line. I did find success with my group in enforcing the reduction in movement caused by concentrating/casting all the time (though that only works in dungeons - outside the dungeon, they are mounted, and their casting doesn't slow the mount (though it does require concentration checks, but given that you don't lose any resources if you fail the check, those are pretty irrelevant)) and in pointing out that they caster is announcing their presence to practically anyone within 100' or so everytime he casts (Perception DC 0 to hear someone speaking).
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Serum, if I am invisible, it's not because I don't want the enemy to be able to precisely locate me to a five foot square.
It's because I don't want them to know I'm there at all.
So detect magic completely ruins what I use invisibility for.
[qquote=detect magic]
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Knowledge (arcana) skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura: DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + 1/2 caster level for a nonspell effect.) If the aura eminates from a magic item, you can attempt to identify its properties (see Spellcraft).
Detect magic don't allow the caster to know that there is someone there.
First round: it allow him to know if there is something magical or not in the cone he is scanning. I hope none of his friends is in the area of detection as he would detect the magic they carry.
Even if the caster is ahead of all his friend the only information he get is the presence or absence of magic.
It is an invisible opponent?
A continual flame torch?
A magical treasure somewhere?
A magical trap?
It is behind the wall?
No idea.
Second round: it allow him to know the numbers of auras and the strength of most potent aura.
Again I hope none of his friends is ahead of the caster.
Number of auras? "35" "Jim how many magic items you have?" "Potions and scrolls count?" "......"
Strength of the aura. "Guys there is a strong magi aura ahead of us! ... Wait, Jim you have a Flaming bust sword, right? Disregard what I said."
Third round: it allow him to know the strength and location of each aura and, if they are in line of sight, the school of magic.
[and thanks to this thread I have rediscovered that, no identifying the auras of something in a chest].
So now, if someone has stood in the area of effect of the spell for 3 rounds, you know that:
- there is something magical here, there and in that corner;
- how strong they are;
- and, if in LOS, almost certainly what is their school. A interesting question is if the invisible creature/item/whatever school can be determined as he is invisible and invisibility block the LOS. I would allow that as you "see" the invisibility area, but you would be incapable to identify the auras of the item/creature/ecc. other magical effects as they are hidden under the veil of invisibility (you still get the number and strength).
As an added bonus we ave:
"Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras."
So your friend ahead of you with Seeming (5th level) will probably hide the guy with Invisibility (2nd level) if he is in the same general LOS (like a strong light can hide a weaker one).
If the invisible guy want to stay immobile for at least two rounds while someone concentrate on the area it his his problem.
Think about stealthing guys. They are in a worse position.
Middle to high level ambusher with magic items.
"I hide behind that curtain, when they pass I will sneak attack the last man, you guys wait in ambush behind that brick wall."
enter the group that constantly use detect magic
"Guys there are magic aura in this hallway. let's wait a second."
the guy hiding behind the curtain start to sweat ..
"I am in the detection area? I should move? There is no concealment nearby ... where I should go?"
2nd round
"Multiple auras, one is strong"
Sneaking guy attack in desperation, ambush fail.
- * -
A evil idea seeing the rules about crafting magic items.
Make a item whose effect (and so the price) don't change with the caster level and push the CL as high as you can.
Now, at a relatively low level you have a strong magic item that will hide most of your weaker auras.
After all making a crafting check at DC 17+ to get a item with a Cl of 12+ is easy even for a 3rd level caster.
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Just so you know, I'm running a campaign right now and the party literally has at least one character with "detect magic" going every waking moment. So this idea that 'well, they wouldn't have detect magic going all the time' is clearly not true in that case.Yeah I hear that. Out of combat It's now just faster for me to assume the magic users have detect magic up and that every has guidance at all times -_-
Big gift. I suppose you you have them paying the "costs" of moving that way too.
The guy with detect magic need to concentrate on the spell, so he is burning his standard action every round, he is distracted (he is concentrating on Detect magic and reading the auras, not on what happen around him), I hope he is ahead of the group or none of the others ever pass in his detection area (there could be a interesting discussion about the effects of adding and subtracting aura in the area, subtracting probably do nothing, but adding? I think you would return to the effects of the first round of detection as you get overlapping auras and need to separate them).And so on, not so easy to do, moving around with those spells always active .
usually looking for traps has the same slowing-the-party-down effect. i have detect magic up when someone else is looking for traps in the corridor ahead because, really, what else am i going to do while standing there waiting for the ok to move forward?
checking for traps actions are pretty much the same as detecting magic actions. i don't consider it that ridiculous.
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I can't and won't speak for other parties or GM's but If I did that to my players I would able to get away with it once. All it would take is a "As we explore these rooms I will take the lead and the others will stay out of my line of site for 18 seconds initially" spoken by a caster and that would be a non-issue after that.
18 seconds to scan a cone long 60' and with a base of 60'. That is 45°. You need 114 seconds, 24 round to scan a 360°. Even without scanning toward your back, we are speaking of 126 second.
In the meantime the assassin hiding beside the architrave you just passed had 3 round to study you and can use his death attack.
Don't seem so safe.
A 45° degree cone with 22.5° on each side of the median line isn't so large.
It is not a radar, you don't get anything twirling around and trying to detect magic in all directions. You need 1 round of study in one direction to get anything.
usually looking for traps has the same slowing-the-party-down effect. i have detect magic up when someone else is looking for traps in the corridor ahead because, really, what else am i going to do while standing there waiting for the ok to move forward?
checking for traps actions are pretty much the same as detecting magic actions. i don't consider it that ridiculous.
This is exactly what the party is doing. Plus they have a couple of 20' moving gnomes so they figure moving at half speed is not much of a loss.
There are three members of the party able to cast detect magic (bard, sorcerer and summoner) plus the paladin's cohort, so they take turns when the spell wears off another member casts it. The rogue moves ahead of the party scouting and looking for traps.
Yeah, once or twice the rogue has encountered something while "exposed" that way, but so far it hasn't meant instant death.
Diego, the party is currently in an underdark passage. They move forward with detect magic. If the detect magic pings an aura, they stop and investigate. There is no need to constantly scan 360 degrees like a lighthouse. They only do anything like that when they reach an intersection. Otherwise whatever is beside or behind them has already been scanned.
So far they have used this tactic only in dungeons where they are constrained into moving through long dark tunnels.
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Intersections, bends, column larger than 1 food, side niches ....
I have visited a few caves, there are plenty of point that are covered from a 45° detecting cone emanating from someone.
This is the kind of panorama you get in the underdark.
Diego, this is my own world. In my world the underdark is a series of underground caverns connected by long tunnels. The party actually just reached the end of their first long tunnel and have just entered a large cavern. Since they were attacked as soon as they entered the cavern and we stopped after that fight, I haven't yet seen what they intend to do while in the cavern itself. If they continue to try the "always on detect magic" I will be sure to follow the guidance from this thread. But so far it's been a long march through long tunnels with a couple of intersections and two large chambers they had to move through.
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I simply suggest you to look the images I linked, there are several photos of corridors that were enlarged for tourist traffic.
Even those corridors tend to have plenty of nooks and crannies capable to hide someone from detect magic.
A natural cave rarely follow a straight route.
Naturally if your underdark routes were created artificially it is possible that there is no space to hide.
The tunnels connecting the caverns are typically artificially created 10' wide corridors with 10' high ceilings and regular intersections to other tunnels.
There are some "natural" caves or cracks that aren't artificial, but the majority of traffic between caverns is through these standard corridors.
The fact that this is very convenient for me to map out in my Hirst Arts dungeon modules is purely coincidental of course. Purely.
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A evil idea seeing the rules about crafting magic items.
Make a item whose effect (and so the price) don't change with the caster level and push the CL as high as you can.
Now, at a relatively low level you have a strong magic item that will hide most of your weaker auras.After all making a crafting check at DC 17+ to get a item with a Cl of 12+ is easy even for a 3rd level caster.
Such an item already exists - 1st level pearl of power. Caster level 17 for 1000gp. Strong transmutation aura to hide any lesser aura in the vicinity.
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Sebastian, I personally agree with the use of prior 3.5 rulings via FAQ when the language is the same. However, I also think that it is a position that is decreasing in its following as the Pathfinder community moves from what was once largely prior 3.5 players to an increasing body of players who never played 3.5 and instead are coming from 4e, from other game systems entirely, or for whom PF is their first introduction to tabletop RPGs. The 3.5 carryover is comfortable for those of us who played and still play 3.5, but it is decidedly irrelevant to those players and either doesn't have that comfort or is uncomfortable.Given that neither spell changed in a material way between the transition from 3.5 to PFRPG, that's a pretty specious argument. I thought at some point someone from Pathfinder weighed in to confirm the prior FAQ ruling, but I'm not turning it up.I know someone said there was a faq for 3.5 but this is not 3.5 this is Pathfinder.
I agree. Until/If Paizo changes it, the logical resource to go with is from the guys that wrote the book on te system. 3.5 was so, so much better about explaining the rules, so if things have not change in the way those rules work, then the FAQ is still good.
Big gift. I suppose you you have them paying the "costs" of moving that way too.
The guy with detect magic need to concentrate on the spell, so he is burning his standard action every round, he is distracted (he is concentrating on Detect magic and reading the auras, not on what happen around him), I hope he is ahead of the group or none of the others ever pass in his detection area (there could be a interesting discussion about the effects of adding and subtracting aura in the area, subtracting probably do nothing, but adding? I think you would return to the effects of the first round of detection as you get overlapping auras and need to separate them).
And so on, not so easy to do, moving around with those spells always active.
Which is all fine and good in combat rounds, but I don't run non-combat in combat rounds. So, 5 second resolution:
"You know doing that will slow you down right?"
"Yeah"
"You pick up some magic auras"
"I stop and wait 18 seconds"
"Ok...you pinpoint them to the gear of the guy in front of you" "oh...lame, hey other player, stay behind me, we continue on"
All this would do would be to serve as an necessary distraction that is easily overcome, at least in my group
18 seconds to scan a cone long 60' and with a base of 60'. That is 45°. You need 114 seconds, 24 round to scan a 360°. Even without scanning toward your back, we are speaking of 126 second.In the meantime the assassin hiding beside the architrave you just passed had 3 round to study you and can use his death attack.
Don't seem so safe.
A 45° degree cone with 22.5° on each side of the median line isn't so large.
It is not a radar, you don't get anything twirling around and trying to detect magic in all directions. You need 1 round of study in one direction to get anything.
I have now typed three responses to this and then deleted them, because the more times I read over what you wrote the less I understand what it has to do with what I said.
To clarify I referring to the first part of what Ryric wrote, the fact he makes detect magic constantly pick up his party members auras. I am saying it would be easy to NOT have that situation come up by the caster asking his party members stay behind him.
I guess I just don't feel the need to try to annoy my players by gimping their strategy. Having a 60ft cone that only detects the presence of magic after 6 seconds up all the time isn't even that powerful, as you have mentioned. So I don't really need to hinder them with small details like "Oh....barbarian walked in front of you, you detect magic" that would get old fast.
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I am pointing out that:
1) the guy detecting magic need to be the guy ahead of the party or have the guy ahead of him be at least 61' further on.
As he is moving, and the other guy is moving the area of detection is constantly reset and he constantly get the "there is magic ahead" result if he has a friend with magic items in his detection range.
RAW there is no way around those conditions, so we have a spellcaster as the point man (unless you have a scout 61+ foot ahead).
If you disregard that and regularly have the barbarian ahead of the wizard, shielding him from harm you are giving the PCs a big gift.
2) it is a narrow cone that can easily miss magic concealed by the terrain features and scan only in one direction unless you actively change your facing to check different directions.
It is one of the few instances where facing matter in pathfinder.
I am pointing out that:
1) the guy detecting magic need to be the guy ahead of the party or have the guy ahead of him be at least 61' further on.
As he is moving, and the other guy is moving the area of detection is constantly reset and he constantly get the "there is magic ahead" result if he has a friend with magic items in his detection range.
RAW there is no way around those conditions, so we have a spellcaster as the point man (unless you have a scout 61+ foot ahead).
If you disregard that and regularly have the barbarian ahead of the wizard, shielding him from harm you are giving the PCs a big gift.2) it is a narrow cone that can easily miss magic concealed by the terrain features and scan only in one direction unless you actively change your facing to check different directions.
It is one of the few instances where facing matter in pathfinder.
1) I wouldn't call hand-waving minutia that would only serve to mildly annoy my players otherwise a big gift. Its almost inconsequently easy to get around it so I am not going to bother with it in the first place. I won't have my players gear interfere with each others detect magic when the solution is as easy as saying "ok I move out of his way". In combat where 6 second matters is one thing, but bogging down out of combat gaming with things like that where I can just easily assume my players characters would know what to do when their ally is trying to detect magic seems a bit silly.
2) Yup, thats correct. I don't recall implying otherwise.