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This player has gone on-line, looked on some optimisation boards and found a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly tricky about the character. Kitsune are obviously naturally good at enchanting; combine that with a bloodline that focuses on enchanting and a couple of standard feats and items for boosting spell DCs and you've got somebody who is very good at enchanting. That's hardly the same as playing a character who exploits just the right combination of poorly-defined mechanics in order to break the game.
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This player has gone on-line, looked on some optimisation boards and found a tweaked build to 'win' the game.Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly tricky about the character. Kitsune are obviously naturally good at enchanting; combine that with a bloodline that focuses on enchanting and a couple of standard feats and items for boosting spell DCs and you've got somebody who is very good at enchanting. That's hardly the same as playing a character who exploits just the right combination of poorly-defined mechanics in order to break the game.
Fine, this player has sat down with a pile of different PF harbacks and come up with a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
The problem is that one player is outshining the other players and making the GM's job harder.
My solution: Ask the player to change character (not nerf the current one, too frustrating) and offer them a crowning-moment-of-awesome to dispose of the kitsune (becomes a vlpinal angel and goes off to fight in the heavens, dies saving an orphanage, etc.)
Ask them to build a new character which is equally fun but not so dominant.
Actually, later posts suggest the GM and Player may have come to an accord - due to the fact that the Kitsune wasn't overpowered so much as a one-trick pony. And really, the problem with one-trick ponies is coping with situations their tricks are useless in. ^^;;
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Fine, this player has sat down with a pile of different PF harbacks and come up with a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
The problem is that one player is outshining the other players and making the GM's job harder.
There's only two books involved here, the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Race Guide, and the build is ineffective against creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or any NPC that can use a first level potion or spell before a fight. Story Archer also hasn't given any indication that the other players in the group are not having fun.
When I'm a player, I find it really frustrating when a GM tells somebody to change their character because the GM doesn't want to tweak encounters or change tactics to suit the party. Heck, that's what home games are for. I can go GM PFS games when I want to run encounters exactly as-written.
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Fine, this player has sat down with a pile of different PF harbacks and come up with a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
The problem is that one player is outshining the other players and making the GM's job harder.
There's only two books involved here, the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Race Guide, and the build is ineffective against creatures immune to mind-affecting effects or any NPC that can use a first level potion or spell before a fight. Story Archer also hasn't given any indication that the other players in the group are not having fun.
When I'm a player, I find it really frustrating when a GM tells somebody to change their character because the GM doesn't want to tweak encounters or change tactics to suit the party. Heck, that's what home games are for. I can go GM PFS games when I want to run encounters exactly as-written.
Re-reading the thread, it seems I misread some stuff and the GM is working things out pretty cool.
But, well, player entitlement can be a scary thing...
A: "Hey guys, I work a long week, look after the kids, and am a busy person.
So, I've bought an Adventure Path: I just don't have time to do that much prep."
B: "What kind of GM are you! You're supposed to spend a whole lot of time tailoring the adventure to suit me."
A: "Well, I'm too busy to do that and, honestly, these professional designers are much better than me."
B: "Oh, gosh-darnit! Why are you not meeting my needs?"
A: "Well, I'm just busy, and unsure of my skills. Why don't you just build a character which fits the paradigms the AP expects. You've still got a vast amount of choices."
B: "Gah! That is so frustrating!"
well... I'd say : hit her and hit her hard.
Chars like special K and co should be aware of the one trick pony, and.... yeah, pounce on her, self preservation being a prime survival instict/skill (invisibility + disintegrate, "persistent spell" rod if necessary), adapt some, and give fair warning. There should be fun and moments of triumph for all the players in the group, and.... yeah, having a formidable "charm master" in a campaign so significantly lacking in undead and monsters with immunity to mind affects... well, doesn't really sit well ? have some casters adapt, have rogues sneak up on the group, have archers pepper her from afar, and mostly hit her from outside her spell range. Grappple her with some tentacles or have some "Rain of Frogs" drop on her.... so many ways to make stuff interesting
Heck, even have her "charm attack" some illusions - which is always great fun for the SoD over-specialised casters
The GM is supposed to tell an interesting and entertaining story, not provide to a single players sense of entitlement by making single monsters a pushover for one PC. Or is he/she now ?
This player has gone on-line, looked on some optimisation boards and found a tweaked build to 'win' the game.Why do you say that? There's nothing particularly tricky about the character. Kitsune are obviously naturally good at enchanting; combine that with a bloodline that focuses on enchanting and a couple of standard feats and items for boosting spell DCs and you've got somebody who is very good at enchanting. That's hardly the same as playing a character who exploits just the right combination of poorly-defined mechanics in order to break the game.Fine, this player has sat down with a pile of different PF harbacks and come up with a tweaked build to 'win' the game.
The problem is that one player is outshining the other players and making the GM's job harder.
My solution: Ask the player to change character (not nerf the current one, too frustrating) and offer them a crowning-moment-of-awesome to dispose of the kitsune (becomes a vlpinal angel and goes off to fight in the heavens, dies saving an orphanage, etc.)
Ask them to build a new character which is equally fun but not so dominant.
Yeah, that's all completely wrong.
First off, we have one party member who does the majority of our character design, working from concepts the other players come up with to make them as strong as possible within the conceptual framework. He posts frequently on this board, actually.
Secondly, the character IS pretty dominant, but only in situations that favor her unique skill set. Against constructs, undead, traps etc. she has to rely on other party members to do the heavy lifting - as yet no one in the party has minded each person having a chance to shine.
Third, as I said, we chatted a little bit about the one-dimensionality and we've agreed to alter the character somewhat though to be honest I think its made her stronger and more well-rounded.
EDIT: Wrote this before seeing your most recent post.
Most of these threads include some variant of "my player has a half fiend, half vampire gunslinger with an advanced firearm and they are blowing through encounters". I learned (the hard way) the it is pretty easy to build a PF character that is WAY above the encounter "guidelines" using the more left field, but legal, builds.
The only effective tactic I have used in these circumstances is to up the ante and to work out ways to combat the PCs super effective tactics, or smile and say "you blew through that one".
The way I keep this stuff in check now is to really restrict the PCs builds. What I do is only allow the CRB stuff and stuff from the other books at GM discretion. Kinda sucks, but it works for our group. May not work for yours.
First off, we have one party member who does the majority of our character design, working from concepts the other players come up with to make them as strong as possible within the conceptual framework. He posts frequently on this board, actually.
First WTF.. you have one player "designing" the group (composition) ?
Major : "OUCH"... synergy anyone ?
Second : that skill set is hardly "unique" in the "rare" sense, but pretty all dominant in a non-undead, not mind-effect immune world.... Say like RotRL, Second Darkness, Legacy of Fire, Kingmaker, Crimson Throne, Serpent Skull (wide parts), Jade Regent, Skulls and Shackles...
Ahem, say like almost anywhere.... except Carrion Crown.
And in my humble opinion, that is why you adapt your adventures to outfox the players and use their expectations against them. Have a non-too-dumb-mummy use a hat of disguise and then be "charmed" and amble up, all friendly to the players, and give the Kitsune a friendly and permanent hug. Perhaps followed by a nice smooch and some friendly grappling ? CR 5 monster with a very cheap item and some...dare I say it... "brains" ?
If you like your games being dominated by one player... your call.
But I highly doubt it is fun in the classic "challenge" sense for the other players and group.
First off, we have one party member who does the majority of our character design, working from concepts the other players come up with to make them as strong as possible within the conceptual framework. He posts frequently on this board, actually.
First WTF.. you have one player "designing" the group (composition) ?
Major : "OUCH"... synergy anyone ?
If you like your games being dominated by one player... your call.
But I highly doubt it is fun in the classic "challenge" sense for the other players and group.
I think you misunderstand what happens in our group - we have five players not including myself and usually four sign up for a particular campaign or AP depending on scheduling conflicts. One of those players is particularly knowledgable and adept when it comes to building characters, so often another player will work with him to bring what they have in midn to life while still keeping it efficient and effective. For instance, two of the conversations surrounding current characters (including the one under discussion) went something like this:
Player #1: I've never played a Dwarf or a Ranger, and I think it'd be cool to play one this time around. Someone kind of traditional who hates goblins and giants, fights with a pair of axes and has a wolf. The only real drawback for me for dwarves has always been their slower movement rate and I'm not really sure which feats would be the best to take if you're going to be two-weapon fighting AND trying to make the most of an animal companion.
That conversation eventually resulted in a well-made Dwarven Two-Weapon Infiltrator with a timber wolf animal companion.
Player #2: I've always wanted to play a really good Enchanter-type character with manipulation and mind-control powers, but every time I try and make a Wizard they just suck at it - plus I don't like prepared casters. I read that Kitsune Sorcerers make really good enchanters and I have this idea for one who grew up 'adopted' by a Scarzni gang who use her for her abilities and now tries to hide her Kitsune heritage from everyone but the closest of friends.
That conversation eventually resulted in the character mentioned above. I'm not sure what your 'synergy' comment is referencing, as having one person kind of shepard the character ideas often results in excellent synergy, both from a technical standpoint as well as a RP standpoint as often characters will have built-in ties to one another. This is the third AP we've had where characters were made this way - I GM'd the first and played the second and they've been really great.
First off, we have one party member who does the majority of our character design, working from concepts the other players come up with to make them as strong as possible within the conceptual framework. He posts frequently on this board, actually.
First WTF.. you have one player "designing" the group (composition) ?
Major : "OUCH"... synergy anyone ?
If you like your games being dominated by one player... your call.
But I highly doubt it is fun in the classic "challenge" sense for the other players and group.
I think you misunderstand what happens in our group - we have five players not including myself and usually four sign up for a particular campaign or AP depending on scheduling conflicts. One of those players is particularly knowledgable and adept when it comes to building characters, so often another player will work with him to bring what they have in midn to life while still keeping it efficient and effective.
I understood it that way. Still a major "ouch". Because I do easily see, how I one can bend and modify characters to serve a "greater good". Do we have cerztain kinds of damage ? do we have a synergetic bonus against these types of enemies. Do we have the structural (say HP, AC etc) strength the group needs for certain kinds of encounters. I have known players who purposefully died to build up a new character that would optimize a group early on, after having analysed the structure of a group. One can do this to a greater or lesser degree, but the synergy effect will be there.
For instance, two of the conversations surrounding current characters (including the one under discussion) went something like this:Player #1: I've never played a Dwarf or a Ranger, and I think it'd be cool to play one this time around. Someone kind of traditional who hates goblins and giants, fights with a pair of axes and has a wolf. The only real drawback for me for dwarves has always been their slower movement rate and I'm not really sure which feats would be the best to take if you're going to be two-weapon fighting AND trying to make the most of an animal companion.
yes... "please - plan my character".... That would be a very strong "no go", unless the player looking for the dwarf would be new to the table, and has never really played Pathfinder before.... Yeah, of course, on my home ground.
That conversation eventually resulted in a well-made Dwarven Two-Weapon Infiltrator with a timber wolf animal companion.Player #2: I've always wanted to play a really good Enchanter-type character with manipulation and mind-control powers, but every time I try and make a Wizard they just suck at it - plus I don't like prepared casters. I read that Kitsune Sorcerers make really good enchanters and I have this idea for one who grew up...
I'd say... well take a look at... hmm say the following classes whatever. Actually... say conceive your character before even asking the other players what they intend to do (our group simply assigns spots... tank/healer/arcane - and then go out and design theirr characters. Maybe asking the GM for permissions or a hint whether the following feature - say ranger boni - are useful in the campaign to come) , and then maybe drop a hint that these two feats might be a good pick... or not. In fact - such groups are far more fun in my experience.
Anything more ? Smacks of "I build this city"
Nevermind, I'd really ram someone into the ground who'd go and introduce a really exotic race like a Kitsune to any place outside Tian.... Next thing Samsarans and Gripplis.. in Sandpoint. Or in Irrisen.
Yeah, Kitsune are anything but archetypal for Varisia.... with a rare and very positive bloodline power... let's tailor them into the setting of Sandpoint so we can min-max the character ? To Sandpoint... not really the most urban and widely travelled to town around ? Is there a family of Kitsune in the area ? A travelling tribe of Fox spirits ? A massive colony of Tian people ?
These guys are already extremely rare in japanese folkore so why don't we stick to their backstory if we are already throwing major boni at them for "story purposes" ?
Or stick to the "you can't trust them" etc. storytyping associated with them ? Oh wait that would be a penalty, right.
That is not "good" rolepalaying. That is simply playing the rules as recommended by the forums to dominate the game.
Well i really love enchanter types, but i´m always torn between Fey bloodline and Serpentine Bloodline. So far i only played Serpentine on level 1 in PFS yet. Serpentine gives you a broader range of options whom to charm. Combine that with trenodic spell and part of the weakness is softened. You´re still a sorcerer with few damage and other options and a lot of weaknesses i think, but it´s real fun to play.
Charm is a opposed CHA roll to "dominate" the victims, shouldn´t be a problem in most cases.
Of course i take feats like toughness or tribal scars and do some CON to have decent HP.
Story Archer, would you post the new more rounded build the two of you came up with? Would be really interesting for me.
Looks like vikingson and geirant are here more to complain about people who play differently are having badwrongfun and getting passive-agressive. Instead of offering suggestions about making challenges, they just say 'Kill em off or kick them out' If they can't really offer good advice just block them.
Looks like vikingson and geirant are here more to complain about people who play differently are having badwrongfun and getting passive-agressive. Instead of offering suggestions about making challenges, they just say 'Kill em off or kick them out' If they can't really offer good advice just block them.
No, I like good concepts, but I always try to fit to the background (no Gripplis in Westcrown) and try not to steal the glory by "resolving every encounter". And as a GM , I do convert and reddesign heavily - which obviously many players do not have the time for, or don't feel too safe about.
Put it this way... I'd introduce some new sideplots with less "vulnerable" targets if Story Archer's campaign was mine. Just to keep things interesting and surprising.I am not sure about other groups, but..... nominally "role-playing" is a group sport and activity, not an individual glory show ? Just my take on it.
And why precisely is glory-hogging "excellent" roleplaying ?
As for Story Archer ROTRL campaign : Advice was given, but if noone wants to change anything in the plot, and changing the situation is not permitted.... *shrug*
Should one recommend every giant in the camapaign will now hurl every single rock at the Kitsune until the character has the consistency of pudding ?
ok, here goes the "nasty" advice
I assume AP#4- AP#6 have not been played yet. And recommending from the original parts only (sole thing on my e-book)
AP-4
Deathwebs... these ares still vermin and or undead and rather immune to mind-affects ? Let's do some silent fishing from the ledge
The "Black Monk". nuff said..... perhaps have some foreshadowing, say like an inscription "He who serves Darkness will know the shapechanged and trickish...HE DISAPPROVES !" (maybe do this with some fun screeching by the Harpies ?). Insect Plague, Creeping Doom (they should be SLA, hence single action only) , smack onto the party (from the darkness above ), then go and kick people to pieces with Mummy Rot, his Mummy-Presence etc in the very tight confines of the tower. I am pretty sure they upgraded his miserable HP. Guess he also got (Imp.) Evasion ?
the giants... yeah, absolute suckers for the enchanter, unless someone tells them to concentrate their rock-hurling. Unlikely. some glory moments. Unless they spot... say the campfire at night and do some "hit the lightsource" hurling
How strong is the Haunt in the lower chambers these days ? Can that thing still kill people by failing a fort save ?
I guess the Lamia priests will be pushovers too, unless they mirror-image and draw spells and actions through major images. Blindness might help... no line of sight, no spell-casting.
Maybe someone upgraded the HP on the Headless Lord ? And maybe have it summon his fast zombies within the group or just behind them ?
Shining Child. Activate Spell Turning, Activate Symbol of Insanity (activate Free Shing aura just AFTER that... probably blinding everyone in the chamber..), Entrap Kitsune with Wall of Force ? Major Image to "draw" spells. Sunbeam any blinded resisters
Oh wait, no TPK, right ?
Have special M ( what is his perception these days ?) hear the group approaching (likely), cast fly, hover at the ceiling above the entrance and disintegrate, stone to flesh, quickened acid arrow (on the Kitsune ?)... hand the guy a "stinking cloud" if you care, have him cast protection from good/evil your pick... anyone who thinks to enter/open the door ?
More hints on HOW to kill a group or simply the Kitsune enchanter if one really wanted to ?
AP-5 Scribbler - possibly re-optimize the guy along Pathfinder rules (feats). Have him cast his "Protection from Good" (just why wouldn't he ?), have him cast "Blindness" on our poor caster (who will likely give herself away through spellcasting gestures. Or drop some summoned monsters on her - summon mosnter VI = Invisible Stalker, huge elemental (ever been introduced to a "ready to smash" huge Earth Elemental appearing behind you ? ). Hand the guy a potion or two of invisibility. Or instant cast (can he still do that in v2 ?) a Shadow demon ? Feeling really nasty ? No idea what precisely the Kitsune's Will save is/will be at the start of AP5, but perhaps have him summon a Succubus to Dominate the poor fox ? Great fun will be had by that, right ?
Glabrezu Demon : mirror image or veil (I am a lonely victim, please unchain me from this vile altar); Power Word Stun.. slash, rip, bite possible rend... then rinse and repeat. Nevermind the guy will instantly know that the Kitsune is a Kitsune (true seeing) and perhaps will adequately use his INT 16 and WIS 16 to effect ?
Nevermind the Dragon on a certain mountain top : Freezeflash the (...entire) group in flyby mode, probably from stealth (invis ?) or coming around a corner or out of a snowstorm. or go for the pick and snatch and chew tactics... always recommended to be used on the guys who do not wear clamshell armour... say, like arcane casters.
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
Do we really have to write down HOW to kill a group ? The nice part is, making the story interesting ( which even involves the "kills"), not in slaughtering the PCs.
Or did I miss a memo ?
well, there went my lunch break^^
Oh, two massive HINTS :
NEVER LET THE PLAYERS KNOW WHAT ATTACKED THEM AND FROM WHERE (unless they already look espy in that direction and everything is in visible range etc.). And perhaps take a look at perception and its reduction of efficency over range.
NEVER LET THEM KNOW WHETHER A SPELL ETC. SUCCEEDED. UNTIL THE CREATURE ACTS OR THE REACTION SHOULD BE OBVIOUS. (or are there some hidden LEDs which signify "this one is charmed" ? missed another memo)
I've tried to read all of this and I didn't see it mentioned, but please forgive me if it was... First, assume this character's reputation is spreading. What would an appropriately evil overlord do to counter such a problem? Maybe tell his minions, "Kill the kitsune first! And I mean *kill* her. Coup de grace the fox!" That may seem harsh, but exceptional characters are exceptional threats and deserve an exceptional response.
Perhaps less "extreme" and more situational, but also based on the character's reputation, enemies are not stupid. Let them prepare for dealing with her. Remember, a lot of enchantments are language dependent. To me, what that means is the target has to be able to hear the caster. What if the caster is subject to a silence spell? Or the target is (with an intentionally failed save)? Or deafness? What about creating an environment filled with noise, such that conversation is impossible? "Fine, you cast your spell... but I can't hear a word you're saying. I may think you're my friend, but here's an axe in your buddy's face. La la la, I can't hear you."
And, FWIW, I feel your pain on this topic. I have a great player who rolled up a character under 3.5 that was an enchanter and also had a PrC that allowed the enchantment of many types of creatures that were traditionally immune. It nearly "broke the game" (IMO; YMMV) and resulted in a hard conversation between us.
Perhaps less "extreme" and more situational, but also based on the character's reputation, enemies are not stupid. Let them prepare for dealing with her. Remember, a lot of enchantments are language dependent. To me, what that means is the target has to be able to hear the caster. What if the caster is subject to a silence spell? Or the target is (with an intentionally failed save)? Or deafness? What about creating an environment filled with noise, such that conversation is impossible? "Fine, you cast your spell... but I can't hear a word you're saying. I may think you're my friend, but here's an axe in your buddy's face. La la la, I can't hear you."
Either that or... the proverbial "tanglefoodbag enchanted with silence".. aka, "the sticky mess on the caster". Always carry a CLOSED extradimensional space (such as a Haversack) full of these (unless you don't count stuff in extradimensional pockets to be in stasis)^^
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As a group, we have a number of house rules designed to streamline play a bit and among those is the agreement that only PC's, named NPC's and named foes get that 'bonus save' when Dominated and asked to do something against their nature... mooks do not. That's another thing I have to take into account.
I think that is contributing to your problem just a little. Game designers take a lot of time balancing and play testing their games. I've learned the hard way that often times a well meaning house rule can have unforeseen consequences that end up unbalancing the game.
Perhaps you've played with this house rule for some time with no problems, but now, with this particular character, it has become an issue. I've had very similar things happen to me in the past.
The solution is very simple. You just tell the players that this house rule is no longer working, and explain why. Just as house rules can be made, they can be cast aside when they no longer work as desired. This rule may save a few dice rolls, but it's also very unbalancing in my opinion. Even the dumbest mook can make a save on a natural 20, which is a 5% chance that you're denying all those NPCs.
Another tactic that has worked for me in the past is to talk to the player one on one about the situation. In the end, this is a game that you both want to enjoy, and so do the others in the group. Share your concerns with her. I'm not suggesting you tell her what to do, but just share your concerns. If she's aware of it, she may temper her behavior a bit, saving the powerful dominates and charms for when they're absolutely necessary.
An element of this that may not occured to her is that by always "saving the day" with her magic, she may be stealing the thunder a bit from the other players. This could even be handled in character if her character becomes aware that one or more of the other characters is feeling less than useful because she's so effective. It could turn into a great rolepaying opportunity, which it sounds like she might really go for.
If you talk to her about it, she may come up with a solution that none of us came up with that's better than anything we've thought of. In my experience, most players are reasonable and will be willing to work with you if you approach them tactfully.
I suspect that part of the problem - at least in the middle of the AP - is/will be that Giants moved from their own monster type to a sub-type of Humanoid in the switch from 3.5 to Pathfinder.
Can anyone who has access to the Anniversary Edition of RotRL tell us if any measure was taken to resolve the Giants' sudden vulnerability to Charm Person, Hold Person, and Dominate Person (all at lower spell levels than the corresponding XXX Monster spell)?
Charm Person (Level 1 spell for a sorcerer/wizard)
Charm Monster (L 4)
Hold Person (L 3)
Hold Monster (L 5)
Dominate Person (L 5)
Dominate Monster (L 9)
Granted, the Giants' high HD will give them some protection saving throw-wise, but it doesn't cancel out the effect of a Sorcerer or Wizard cranking out the lower-level Charm/Hold/Dominate Person spells instead of the higher level Charm/Hold/Dominate Monster spells. Such a great effect for such a low-level spell!
On 'Special K'
Regarding the point of using charm to get information from NPCs (Mokmurian knows where Xin-Shalast is, for example) - there is a spell in Second Darkness Player's Guide called Hidden Knowledge, which converts knowledge to a tattoo. Have Mokmurian (and other wizards) use this spell regularly to hide knowledge from himself. Instructions directly from Karzoug, what a schmott guy. I mention Mokmurian specifically because he's the only one who knows where Xin-Shalast is, and that information is really only supposed to be available later on.
Alternatives:
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Minions like Mokmurian are under such control by Karzoug that they can't be enchanted again.
Karzoug used Wish to erase the memory of the location of Xin-Shalast from Mokmurian's mind.
On 'Special K' ** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Really, really like both of those bits of insight. Thanks.