Hey All,
This is my first post on this board, but I've been playing Pathfinder and reading for a long time.
Anyways, I've been playing pen and papers for 17 years, and Pathfinder since there was only the core rulebook. For the vast majority of that time I've enjoyed being a DM. One thing though I've always felt a struggle with is combat. Be it encounter building and design, combat descriptions, or even just running it.
Below is an example of one of the more recent combats I've run:
The PCs were aboard an airship in the elemental plane of air, the how, why, and whatever aren't too important. Anyways, their ship was besieged by lighting elementals during the height of a tempest. They had spotted the elementals closing in on their ship from a distance, and as they boarded it began to pour. I can't remember if I borrowed these elementals from somewhere or if they're custom. But, I had decided in advance that if they went into a square with rain they'd dissipate. I mentioned that as it began to rain the sparks seemingly took refuge under overhangs on the ship, where it was dry. The elementals were immune to metal weapons (so I made sure stash some mops and brooms and other cudgel like weapons around) and they'd receive a free attack that was an automatic hit against anyone hitting them in melee with a metal weapon.
The fight was supposed to be an easy one. I knew in advance that the Cleric had Create Water memorized, as I mentioned the backup weapons were already present, they were long time players as well so they knew the rules for Bull Rush, I had clearly marked on the battlemap which spaces were dry and which were wet. I guess it was partly my fault for having straight forward fights up until this point. Anyways, they went for around 5 rounds of not changing tactics to meet the threat (that means using metal weapons in melee, and running over to the elementals in the dry spaces), before I had an NPC step in and toss a bucket on one of the elementals.
I guess what I'm most curious about, is what do you do when you run into situations like this? I wasn't going to let my players just die, but did I let them off too easy? Afterwards they admitted that they felt I had spoiled the fight for them.
Also, what about random encounters. Do you have a system for making these fun and engaging? I don't think my players know the difference, but I always feel like there is something missing when I run these.
Lastly what kind of language do you use to describe the combat. I try my best to use every adjective I can think of, but after 3 rounds I find myself saying "you take 5 points of damage" or "and elemental number 3 misses". Any tips for avoiding that?
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Few things to keep in mind.
First, the players will always be able to screw up your plans.
Second, just because you (The GM) know how to handle a fight (Lightning elementals into water) doesnt mean that the players will put that 2 and 2 together. I for one wouldnt get that, but I would get dousing fire elementals in water.
Third, dont get too creative with your fights. It sounds like your players have to get used to minor tactical issues. Have some baddies use caltrops, or shoot them from the top of a roof that the players cant easily get up on.
Down the road, you can start playing your bad guys with full pre thought out tactics. Play the bad guys like they were your own character trying to kill something while staying alive themselves. Ambush, set traps, take a potion of bulls strength, use healing potions, run away, attack them while they sleep, light there gear on fire!
As per random encounters, if you were setting up camp out in the woods, what might you encounter? A bear? A hobo that just tries to make off with some food? A helpful stranger? Army ants?
The world is living, while the players go from point A to point B, they may be unaware they are about to stumble on a long running feud between two clans of goblins, who are amid battle when they spot the PCs, they then join forces to attack the players.
And to combat language, read some fantasy novels. Your language will start to reflect in your sessions. I never say you take 5 points, I say the the enemies rusty shortsword slices into your thigh, blood starts to well up, you take 5 points. If it is a crit, I get pretty graphic. Basicaly I say what weapon they get hit with, where it hit, and the HP damage, every time. If its a fireball, I tell them they smell burned hair... And bacon.
This happens to every GM who runs atypical encounters, I think. I always have to remind myself with any kind of riddle or puzzle or whatever, that it seems obvious when you know the answer, but can be quite tricky if you're in the player's seat.
I know from experience being a player in these situations, too, that sometimes I deliberately don't try something creative for fear that the GM will think I'm trying to exploit some loophole in an otherwise straight-forward encounter.
I think in this scenario, I might have rolled a knowledge check on someone's behalf, and then dropped a hint, rather than have an NPC demonstrate the proper way. That at least gives the players a sense that they won the fight with their own assets, even if they didn't get it themselves.
And when planning things like this, I try to just create multiple ways of winning the encounter, rather than the only or clearly best way. That, or I'll sneak in something that will simply give them a small edge if they're clever - and no big deal if they don't figure it out. In general, people want to win by doing things their way, and don't like it when they have to put away the sword they invested a lot of money and feats in to do things the way the GM had envisioned.
Also, what about random encounters. Do you have a system for making these fun and engaging? I don't think my players know the difference, but I always feel like there is something missing when I run these.
I admit to frequently skipping random encounters if I sense that it's just a bad time. They can get boring and mechanical, and that's worth avoiding. I hate the grind, no matter which side of the screen I'm sitting.
Sometimes I'll leave the encounter in, but dial back the challenge a little bit. Maybe it's just my group, but my group likes to own face every once in a while; puts smiles on all their faces, and reminds them how far they've come. Constantly facing challenges at about your level can get boring quickly, and robs you of the sense that you've grown. That's one way to put a little life in an encounter - it isn't always about challenging them.
I'll also try to give the encounters as much personality as possible by coming up with unique features or personalities for the creatures, or any other kind of twist I can think up in the moment; anything to make it distinct and/or memorable. One of the problems with random encounters is that they tend to be very generic and out-of-the-box, which can interrupt an otherwise quite personal and detailed adventure.
For example, in my last game the party stumbled upon a hobgoblin war band who were returning from a raid on a rival tribe. The encounter table didn't call for it, but I threw in a bunch of goblin slaves that were manacled and chained up together in a line. They wound up creating quite a bit of chaos during the fight as they ran around in uncoordinated fear, each one trying to escape to freedom in a different direction, dragging their chains along with them. Once the fight started turning decisively towards the PCs, a couple of the braver/more angry goblins took the opportunity to turn on their captors. One of the hobgoblins was unhorsed (unworged?) and a little goblin captive ran up and kicked him while he was down. lol The PCs had such admiration for that goblin in particular that they wound up letting the little buggers go (though they didn't undo their chains, ha ha!).
I've put the party up against already wounded creatures (up the CR a little but scale back HP), had them stumble onto a fight in progress between two rolls on the random encounter table (do you join in, and if so, on which side?), and sometimes I'll slip a very odd item into a fallen creature's possessions. Once as a silly running gag I kept letting the PCs find volumes from an apparently quite popular 12-part romance novel series. "Searching the ogre mage, you find a fur-lined sack containing an ivory scroll case, a vial of translucent liquid, a polished obsidian stone, a handful of coins of various denominations... and a copy of Tales of a Busty Barmaid, vol 7: Passion on the High Seas." You would not believe how serious they were about collecting the whole set. They literally could not pass the most casually mentioned bookcase without taking 20 to search it. lol
Lastly what kind of language do you use to describe the combat. I try my best to use every adjective I can think of, but after 3 rounds I find myself saying "you take 5 points of damage" or "and elemental number 3 misses". Any tips for avoiding that?
This is a tough one. I definitely don't try to think of something creative for every blow, as even that gets old eventually. Less is more, etc.
However, I generally try to match the descriptiveness of the player. If a player describes the way they swing their sword, I'll describe how the swing lands or misses, etc. If a player is really straight-forward I'll mix it up, saving the juicy descriptions for close calls, good rolls, and meaningful moments.
I think the hard part for me is keeping it simple, as I naturally lean towards over-describing things. I have to work hard on keeping things moving steadily along. But that's me.
Hey Sterling,
Thanks for the tips! Looking back on the games I've run, I think you're right. I've led plenty of really straight forward encounters in the past, so broadsiding them with such an encounter was rather unfair on my part.
And are you suggesting that I make normal encounters ahead of time, and then randomly select from a pool of those that fit the situation? Because that advice may just change the way I run games forever. I always made a list of things (2d4 Goblins, d6 hobgolins, etc..) and went from there. So yeah, that's much better than the way I was doing it.
As for language, think its really just me remembering to keep up with the descriptions. I don't know if its the chaos of battle that makes me lose focus on that, or if its that I get tired describing what an enemy is doing their rusty short sword on round 7.
Anyways, thanks for the response! Your random encounter advice will be used as soon as I click post!
I think you nailed my sentiment towards random encounters right on the head there Chris. What you're both saying though makes a lot of sense. I really do need to get away from the 2D4 goblin approach and go with something a bit more tailored. Nothing too extravagant, but certainly something more entertaining than standard ambush 5000.
I've certainly never done anything like multi-faction fights or already wounded higher CR monsters, so I think there is plenty of room to grow there.
Next game I'll try what you suggest by saving the descriptive language for when a important blow is landed. I think that may play up those hits, or misses, and make combat a bit more memorable.
Thanks again!
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I have been playing a while, I have played with 30 or more GMs, including one of Gygax's GMs. I have hundreds of random encounters in my head, and monster quirks, odd weapons, and NPCs to draw from. So I don’t do randomly rolled random encounters anymore.
If the PCs decide its easier to go through the swamp 20 miles than through the mountains 50 miles, I immediately have to rewrite my adventure. Instead of the hill giants and the harpys they were to encounter, now I throw some trolls and a clan of lizardmen at them.
Some ways to make this non typical is to have the lizardmen out looking for food or slaves, so the lizardmen try to capture, not kill the PCs. Use nets, trips, traps. And to mess with the partys caster, put a captured villager in a net on one of the lizardmen so if the party caster uses fireball, they risk killing an innocent.
Enemies have goals and needs too. Some want to die in glorious battle, some are just hungry, some are just working for the only person hiring. Bad guys make camp too, they have potions, they know local terrain and dangers. They know where that snake nest is and may lead the PCs on a chase by it.
Maybe the damsel in distress is merely leading the party into a ambush she orchestrated.
Find 5 NPCs, maybe out of the NPC codex. Think of a reason the party would get in a fight with them out in the world, maybe they stumbled upon a secret ceremony, or a hidden digsite. Then just keep them in the back of your head for random encounter time.
Remember, each one of those bad guys, be it the coniving damsel, or the lowly goblin, they are YOUR (The GMs) player characters. That is YOUR goblin attacking the players. How does YOUR goblin plan to reap the rewards of this attack? Is he going to kill one player and run off with his shiney new sword, or is he defending his home. If things look bad for the goblin, how will he try to get away or hide? That Goblin, lets call him Squib, is the GMs character.
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For the language issue (the other issues seem to have been covered well), I'm a very extravagant describer of combat. I learned this from other GMs. So, I have two possible points of advice:
1, play with a new gm you've never met before. Be this Pathfinder Society meet ups somewhere nearby to get some ideas (this is a great option for a low commitment), or play in an online game somewhere.
2, listen to some sessions online (RPPR has some good games they podcast). This is even easier and you can do this on the way to work/school/grocery store in your car, or while browsing the internet.
I guess my main point is that you'll have a very difficult time doing this if you're your only inspiration. Reading books also works, but I've found that less helpful personally.
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Oh, and some horrible advice I can give you to help your fight descriptions... Get in a fight.
I used to do SCA wars and I remember taking hits in the arms, banging up my legs, getting tired 15 minutes in wearing chain armor, having sweat running into my eyes, taking hits from my friends when they "Roll a 1" and accidentally hit me in the back, scrambling to my feet after getting knocked down, deep dark purple bruises, not being able to move the next day....
All that happens to my players, because I know thats how things go from experience.
Hey ShaperMC,
I've tried playing with other GMs in the past, but it has been a long time since I have. I recently went to my local hobby store to see if they had a PFS, but had no luck. Occasionally I end up at trade shows like PAX and have had a great time demoing out whatever pen and paper games they have to show there. But, I attend those less than once a year.
About RPPR, I'd never heard of them and it appears that they have a Dark Sun game podcast! I can't wait to listen to this!
And Sterling, I had in the past given that kind of detail to the encounters during the adventure/campaign, but never thought to try applying a rough sketch of that to the random encounters. I have no idea why, it seems so obvious now!
All that happens to my players, because I know thats how things go from experience.
I understand your general intent here, but just as a bit of commentary...
You and your SCA friends are probably not heroic nearly superhuman Conan-like characters who can shrug off arrows to the knee.
Your players' characters, by rule in fact, actually are supposed to be.
Just something to consider.
This happens to every GM who runs atypical encounters, I think. I always have to remind myself with any kind of riddle or puzzle or whatever, that it seems obvious when you know the answer, but can be quite tricky if you're in the player's seat.
Indeed. If you want something to be obvious to the PCs, you have to make it twice as obvious to the players!
So in the example above, don't be afraid of letting the PCs make Wisdom checks or Knowledge (planes) checks with a fairly low DC to figure out that water is dangerous to the elementals.
All that happens to my players, because I know thats how things go from experience....You and your SCA friends are probably not heroic nearly superhuman Conan-like characters who can shrug off arrows to the knee....
I am.
Re: unusual tactics or strategy.
It has been my experience that players have to be trained to think this way.
What I try to do in combat (and what I try to teach the game group I play with) is to follow the following general strategy for combat:
1. Knowledge is power. Learn what you can about your opponents. In some cases with extensive lead time that means trips to a library to research local history, in other cases where you've been jumped totally unexpectedly it means observing the enemy in action. Either way "Learn your enemy's strengths and weaknesses" should be among the first thing the party does. That can be done in game context with knowledge checks, perception checks or sense motive checks. USE THESE SKILLS IN COMBAT.
2. Exploit the environment. This is nearly impossible if you don't do #1 above. But it is one of the most powerful ways to turn an encounter to your advantage. Identify what parts of the battlefield give your party a tactical edge. In some cases that means exploiting difficult terrain, in some cases that means utilizing cover or in some cases it means learning how to make the environment an active agent in the combat.
3. Manage the battlefield. Sun Tzu taught over 3,000 years ago that the winner of a battle is usually the army that has a tactical advantage, not necessarily the army that has superior firepower or manpower. This is one of the things that I believe confuses more players than any other part of combat. What does it mean to manage the battlefield? Is that the wizard's job? No, it's everybody's job. Fighters can bull rush opponents, archers can throw tanglefoot bags, casters can throw up walls, create pits, whatever. The important thing about battlefield control is that the party should have some idea of how to structure the battlefield. Does the party benefit from the creation of difficult terrain? Does the party benefit from creating choke points? Etc.
4. Focus on offense. In the words of General George S Patton, the winner of the battle is usually the one that "gets there the firstest with the mostest". Offense is generally superior to defense in combat, but the Pathfinder ruleset actually codifies this by making damage scale faster and higher than healing or armor class. Focusing on offense is best done when items #1, #2 and #3 are also being performed. Knowledge of the enemy will tell you which opponents are the biggest threat. Those should be targeted first. Exploiting the environment will allow you to position your team for the best possible means of delivering damage to those key targets. And managing the battlefield can make them sitting ducks so that they can be more easily damaged or neutralized. Most battles in PF are hit point attrition affairs. Because of that it is key to try to go first. There are very few tactical options that will end up being superior to "get the highest initiative you can manage". If your attacks kill an opponent who has a lower initiative, it's a full round where you did damage and the opponent did not.
5. Communicate and coordinate. In the modern military they call this "command and control". Execute tactical plans, and direct the action. Someone should be the combat tactician. They should be giving orders. "Bull rush the troll into the pit!" Etc. When individual party members are left to operate as free agents, tactical options like "focus fire" or "manage the battlefield" or "know the enemy" become a waste of effort. An effective team is a coordinated team. Coordination requires teamwork, planning and willingness to follow orders.
6. Be prepared to improvise. Yeah, I know that this one seems to contradict all the previous 5. It doesn't contradict them. It is a way of saying that every battle plan will fracture to some degree when the battle begins. The less knowledge you have about your enemy, the more likely you will have to improvise. This means pay attention to what is happening in combat. "Your sword connects solidly, but somehow it doesn't seem to do as much damage as you expected" is a clue that maybe your sword isn't the best way to deal with this threat. Maybe a club would work better. Maybe weapons should be put aside and combat maneuvers or dirty tricks should be attempted so that spellcasters can deal with this particular threat.
7. Have a retreat plan. Who initiates retreat? What are the parameters that lead to choosing to retreat? How is a retreat coordinated? Where do you retreat to? Who provides rear protection while the retreat is in order. If all else fails, who sacrifices themselves so the others can get away?
I have played with groups that do some of these things but not the others. And I have played in groups that do none of these things.
Now, quite frankly, sometimes it can be quite fun to totally ignore all of this and just wade into combat like a bunch of untrained newbs. Fun is not based on tactical success alone, and sometimes not at all.
These are tips to be more effective in combat. They are not tips on how to improve your fun.
Unless winning more combats while using fewer resources is fun for you.
It sort of is for me.
Hey All,
Sorry it took so long to get back!
Hogarth, I do try and do all of those things. If I remember correctly everyone failed the checks I asked for, so my hands were kind of tied. One question for you though, do you specifically ask your characters for those knowledge checks or do you wait for them to say something that allows them to make the check?
And Adamantine Dragon, That's a huge swath of knowledge that I'll certainly pass on to my players! I think one of the tactical issues that they also run into is that everyone is trying to do something different (that is if they're actually trying to be tactical). And I think as you advice implies maybe it'd be better to have one person that takes on tactical responsibilities. At least then they'd get the satisfaction of having their plans work. And yes, they do generally enjoy getting through tough fights spending fewer resources.
Hogarth, I do try and do all of those things. If I remember correctly everyone failed the checks I asked for, so my hands were kind of tied. One question for you though, do you specifically ask your characters for those knowledge checks or do you wait for them to say something that allows them to make the check?
If it's supposed to be obvious to the PCs, I wouldn't wait for the players to say anything. I even might say "It's clear to your characters that the elementals are avoiding the rain, so maybe there's something you can do with that" without even asking for any die rolls. What's the point in making them sweat for the information?
Yeah, I suppose you're right. I probably should've just said something like that. There were times when they left the dry spots for the rainy and the elementals didn't follow, which would've been the perfect time to bring it up again.