Good day all,
Recently my friends and I were adventuring in the lovely layers of the Abyss and we were beset upon by some Pathfinder-adapted beholders. I guess for copyright reasons we'll call them Insane Large Eye'd Roundlings.
For all 2 of you that aren't familiar with them, they have a large central eye that is basically an anti-magic cone, and bazillions of eye-stalks that shoot blazing death in various forms: disintegrate, charm, sleep, stone to flesh, etc (supernatural ability). On top of this they are 'naturally boyant' (read: naturally cheesy) so they float as an (EX) ability.
My question is about how the spell "Baleful Polymorph" works in general, and then following into the specifics.
Baleful polymorph begins with "as Beast Shape III" (which is a polymorph spell)
Beast shape, as a polymorph class spell, basically removes all of the abilities of the base creature that relied on its old form.
Baleful polymorph however has a second save (will) that allows it to keep its (EX), (SU), (SP) abilities and its ability to cast spells.
So this is a case of the specific save of baleful polymorph allowing things to 'come through' the beast shape 3 spell, and then allow a save? Or does it mean that if the base form had any (SU),(SP),(EX)+casting ability in its beast shape form, that THOSE are allowed to come through on a save? It seems worded to basically allow the former, so that baleful polymorph isn't effectively a save or die, but more of a Save-and-Save-or-die
(Apologies for the long post)
An Insane-Large-Eye'd-Roundling was hit with a baleful polymorph and it failed it's initial save. The druid decided a turtle was a good new animal addition to the environment and the legally-different-than-a-beholder became a turtle, however it made its next save.
Since the spell specifically says it keeps all of its base (EX),(SU),(SP)+casting abilities by making the save, the DM ruled that the turtle somehow floated in the air (EX bouyancy) and continued to shoot rays out from its eyes (SU eye stalks) and it could use its anti-magic cone central-eye (SU) somehow during this just like before. In the end it seemed that the only thing the baleful polymorph did was make the bad guy's AC go up and give it a better to-hit with its rays with the DEX buff.
Does this seem correct?
And if so, it seems that baleful polymorph wouldnt stop a dragon that was turned into a dove from roasting the party with its dragon's breath, or a water-elemental turned into a monkey from dripping through a grate?
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
He can't use the abilities that are based on his form while in a different form. Since all those abilities are based on his form he can't use them.
He still has them! He just can't use them.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision)
That says you lose the abilities (not the ability to use them)
If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own.
That seems to override the general rules of polymorph with the specific wording in the second save. I doubt it to be a 'reminder' of the general rules of polymorph. This seems to replace the 'lose the abilities' quoted above.
He still has them! He just can't use them.
I dont see any combination that allows the creature to have the abilities and not use them, all of the wordings so far say 'loses the ability'
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Well, if you look at the rules for transmutation spells / polymorph effects, it says you lose all your Su, and Ex abilities that depend on your original form.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph
You also get a whole bunch of restrictions on casting spells, but you aren't prohibited from casting spells entirely if you can overcome those restrictions (eschew material, silent/still spell, natural spell, etc.)
The will save component in baleful polymorph makes no mention of form, and grants a blanket prohibition on ALL spell casting, Su, Ex and Sp abilities.
The two sets of rules can therefore be read in harmony. Even if you don't fail the will save, your ability to make use of Su and Ex abilities that rely on your original form is hampered, and your spell casting is severely restricted. This may still allow you to do some limited spell casting and make use of some Su and Ex abilities, as well as use your Sp abilities. If you do fail the will save, then you lose the ability to use ANY special abilities.
In the case of the beholder, I think that your GM got it wrong. I can't think of a clearer example of an Ex ability that depends on form than the beholder's ability to float. Some Ex abilities don't depend on form, like a monk's slowfall for instance, or a rogue's evasion.
I hope this was helpful.
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Well, if you look at the rules for transmutation spells / polymorph effects, it says you lose all your Su, and Ex abilities that depend on your original form.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph
You also get a whole bunch of restrictions on casting spells, but you aren't prohibited from casting spells entirely if you can overcome those restrictions (eschew material, silent/still spell, natural spell, etc.)
The will save component in baleful polymorph makes no mention of form, and grants a blanket prohibition on ALL spell casting, Su, Ex and Sp abilities.
The two sets of rules can therefore be read in harmony. Even if you don't fail the will save, your ability to make use of Su and Ex abilities that rely on your original form is hampered, and your spell casting is severely restricted. This may still allow you to do some limited spell casting and make use of some Su and Ex abilities, as well as use your Sp abilities. If you do fail the will save, then you lose the ability to use ANY special abilities.
In the case of the beholder, I think that your GM got it wrong. I can't think of a clearer example of an Ex ability that depends on form than the beholder's ability to float. Some Ex abilities don't depend form, like a monk's fast slowfall for instance, or a rogue's evasion.
I hope this was helpful.
It would almost be amusing to say that the turtle could shoot eyestalk rays out of its two normal eyes still, but not use the big central eye or float.
It would almost be amusing to say that the turtle could shoot eyestalk rays out of its two normal eyes still, but not use the big central eye or float.Well, if you look at the rules for transmutation spells / polymorph effects, it says you lose all your Su, and Ex abilities that depend on your original form.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph
You also get a whole bunch of restrictions on casting spells, but you aren't prohibited from casting spells entirely if you can overcome those restrictions (eschew material, silent/still spell, natural spell, etc.)
The will save component in baleful polymorph makes no mention of form, and grants a blanket prohibition on ALL spell casting, Su, Ex and Sp abilities.
The two sets of rules can therefore be read in harmony. Even if you don't fail the will save, your ability to make use of Su and Ex abilities that rely on your original form is hampered, and your spell casting is severely restricted. This may still allow you to do some limited spell casting and make use of some Su and Ex abilities, as well as use your Sp abilities. If you do fail the will save, then you lose the ability to use ANY special abilities.
In the case of the beholder, I think that your GM got it wrong. I can't think of a clearer example of an Ex ability that depends on form than the beholder's ability to float. Some Ex abilities don't depend form, like a monk's fast slowfall for instance, or a rogue's evasion.
I hope this was helpful.
+1. That would be how I would rule it, if the eyestalk ray is a Sp ability. It's a coherent / harmonious reading of the rules, and makes for a memorable table experience! Lazer turtle FTW.
This reminds me of the time a party member turned evil and got repeatedly Baleful Polymorphed by the party witch every time he tried to backstab the group. He ended up as ... a tortoise with the mind of a rabbit, I think, due to some interesting Will save successes and failures. Turns out a rabbit gets a Will save to keep its rabbit-mind rather than get a tortoise-mind.
So he was turned into a rabbit and lost his mind... and then backstabbed (I assume you mean in the most literal sense, like Sneak Attack) the party and got Baleful'd again?
Why would a rabbit try sneak attacking anything? It's not like they're carnivores >_<
+1. That would be how I would rule it, if the eyestalk ray is a Sp ability. It's a coherent / harmonious reading of the rules, and makes for a memorable table experience! Lazer turtle FTW.
Note to self: Never polymorph a beho... I mean, a Floating Eye Thingy... into a spider.
"Good job. You just gave it eight shots a round."
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So he was turned into a rabbit and lost his mind... and then backstabbed (I assume you mean in the most literal sense, like Sneak Attack) the party and got Baleful'd again?
Why would a rabbit try sneak attacking anything? It's not like they're carnivores >_<
Anyone else getting a vision of the Holy Grail rabbit right now?
That's what a rabbit with 10d6 sneak attack would be.
The only way the turtle could float is if he spun in rapid circle. GAMORA!
We used to joke about a Great Wyrm Red Dragon getting polymorphed into a puppy but making its will save, then running through towns demanding maiden sacrifices and belching massive cones of fire much to everyone's confusion....and terror.....
The others in this thread pretty much have it right though. The Beholder loses all abilities associated with its original form, though in turtle form it still has two eyes. As a result, I would assume it keeps two of its eye-based supernatural abilities. I would roll randomly to see which ones it keeps, and which ones it loses.
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Baleful polymorph however has a second save (will) that allows it to keep its (EX), (SU), (SP) abilities and its ability to cast spells.
This is the crux of your problem.
The spell text is:If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own-
It say nothing about retaining his ability, it speak of not losing them.
As other poster have already pointed out, that don't supersede the general rule about polymorph,While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
it integrate it.
So, after failing your first ST you lose all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities and other features that depend on your shape, then you get a second ST to retain what is left and your mental faculties.
My assassin was baleful polymorphed into a song bird once while fighting a very tricky boss...I had consumed a elixir of trueseeing prior to the fight so basically spent the fight calling out where the boss was (she DD'd and used images) to the other party members...was not the shining light of my assassin's career
Hmm. Yeah, I think I'd let the baleful turtle still use two eye rays.
(Note to self: Turn foes with gaze attacks into Blind Mole Rats.)
Well, if you look at the rules for transmutation spells / polymorph effects, it says you lose all your Su, and Ex abilities that depend on your original form.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Transmutation-Polymorph
You also get a whole bunch of restrictions on casting spells, but you aren't prohibited from casting spells entirely if you can overcome those restrictions (eschew material, silent/still spell, natural spell, etc.)
The will save component in baleful polymorph makes no mention of form, and grants a blanket prohibition on ALL spell casting, Su, Ex and Sp abilities.
The two sets of rules can therefore be read in harmony. Even if you don't fail the will save, your ability to make use of Su and Ex abilities that rely on your original form is hampered, and your spell casting is severely restricted. This may still allow you to do some limited spell casting and make use of some Su and Ex abilities, as well as use your Sp abilities. If you do fail the will save, then you lose the ability to use ANY special abilities.
In the case of the beholder, I think that your GM got it wrong. I can't think of a clearer example of an Ex ability that depends on form than the beholder's ability to float. Some Ex abilities don't depend on form, like a monk's slowfall for instance, or a rogue's evasion.
I hope this was helpful.
BD I just wanted to take the time to thank you for your clear and concise response. I was unable to arrive at how the combination of these two disparate rules sets should combine in a way that didnt make the spell the only core polymorph spell to go out of its way to break the new core polymorph rules.