catching people without their dex bonus (or flat footed)

[Xavier319]

Here's the question. If you are posing as a friend, or someone does not consider you an enemy during a fight (disguise, or whatever) and you suddenly attack them, are they caught flat-footed (or without their dex bonus to AC) and would you get sneak attack? My thought is yes, since they were not prepared to defend themselves against you.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I would give them a sense motive check, but if they failed that, yeah, caught unawares.

[Starglim]

If the person actually does have reason to consider you a friend or trustworthy ally (not just a random bystander of undetermined motive in a somewhat dangerous environment) then I agree the GM could allow a Bluff vs. Sense Motive check for them to perceive that you're a threat.

In a more typical encounter, they can see you easily, so it's just an initiative check with neither party surprised.

[Xavier319]

if they have started the fight posing as an ally to the enemy, using bluff and disguise successfully, then during the fight they attack an enemy and break their disguise, then i would let them be flat-footed.

[Malag]

You could Bluff to make a distraction upon them, but in either case, that would be Sleight of Hand against target's Perception to see if target managed to notice you pulling the dagger out. And yes, target would be flat-footed if he fails to notice your dagger in his ribs.

In typical combat this would be Stealth vs. Perception. At least, that's how I believe so.

[pezlerpolychromatic]

If the supposed friend is a noncombatant then it would be Stealth vs. Perception to hide him pulling out his dagger or barracuda to attack you. If the traitor is a fellow adventurer then you wouldn't think twice about them drawing a weapon when you enter combat, so that it would be Bluff vs. Sense Motive in that case. "Awww how nice, he's going to help us fight the mooks....*stab*....owwww, my lifespan!"

[Renvale987]

I would no, because the rules state that if both opponents are aware of one another, than you roll initiative normally and combat begins.

You're not taking into account the other person's reflexes. As soon as you make the move to stab said person, you become an enemy trying to kill him.

You're standing right in front of him, he's aware of you and you're initiating combat.

That's why we have intitiative checks. He fails his, you're faster than him, you catch him flat-footed and stab him.

[Xavier319]

I completely disagree Renvale. If someone considers you a friend, and expects you to have their back, they will not be ready for you to attack them. If you make the bluff check, and trick them, I would say they would be flat-footed to you as if they were unaware of you.

[Troubleshooter]

First off, Flat-Footed means you lose your Dex to AC, but it doesn't mean that every time you lose your Dex to AC that you're Flat-Footed. You don't become Flat-Footed in the middle of combat.

I run it as a free Sense Motive versus Bluff. I generally don't allow surprise rounds to happen for free -- there's almost always some resistive factor, whether it's Perception versus Stealth, Sense Motive versus Bluff, or casting invisibility and silence.

Drawing a weapon shouldn't matter to an ally -- especially because as allies you probably adventure together with your weapons in hand, or because you might enter a room with the weapon already drawn.

At that, drawing a weapon stealthily is a use of Sleight of Hand, not Stealth.

Even if people are allies, there is good justification for getting initiative on them -- Charms and Compulsions are frequent and dire threats to adventuring parties, and you never know when a friend has been subjected to a successful suggestion.

[LazarX]

Xavier319 wrote:

Here's the question. If you are posing as a friend, or someone does not consider you an enemy during a fight (disguise, or whatever) and you suddenly attack them, are they caught flat-footed (or without their dex bonus to AC) and would you get sneak attack? My thought is yes, since they were not prepared to defend themselves against you.

If you played it right, then yes, you get a surprise round. But that's all you get, so you better have make the most of it.

But then again, you may find out that your target was outbluffing you and readying an action all this time. It's a case by case circumstance and your mileage may vary. And if you're not good at eliminating witnesses, or if your close friends have a noted habit of dying around you in mysterious circumstancs, you'll get a reputation for one can't be trusted.

[Joesi]

I didn't read everyone's messages entirely, but I don't think anyone mentioned this:

Unless you have quick draw, or are using an improvised weapon, I'd lean towards the answer of no, they wouldn't be flat-footed (like another said, maybe provide a sense motive check then, with a large bonus if the weapon's drawn, or a medium bonus if the weapon has to be drawn and can't be done swiftly). I'd say that despite the NPC trusting or thinking the PC is peaceful, if the player has a weapon in-hand, they would at least maybe be nervous and hence prepared.

In a sense, put your PCs in the NPC's shoes (maybe not the best thing to say for everyone, but in my opinion I think it's good to be fair in this way so that encounters aren't walkovers): If NPC allies were chatting with a player and then striked them flat-footed, would they be OK with it? They would maybe claim that their PCs were suspicious since the NPCs' weapons were drawn (or something else). I think it's only fair to give NPCs that same fairness.

Isn't "catch off guard" IIRC exactly what we're talking about (with an improvised weapon)?
edit: well, it's only half of the benefit, the far less useful and weaker one.