Shield Bash proficiency?

[Pinstripedbarbarian]

I have a question for which I can't seem to find a solid, clear answer:

Is someone proficient with shields but not martial weaponry (i.e. bard, cleric, druid) able to make a shield bash attack without a -4 penalty?

There's lots of arguments for both sides from what I can find. Some say proficiency is the whole item, so wielding a shield defensively and making a shield bash are both covered. Proficiency is proficiency. This makes sense; if you're able to understand wielding a shield properly, it's not a big leap to bashing something over the head with it. If it was separate, Improved Shield Bash would have 'Shield Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency (Shield)' as prerequisites instead of just 'Shield Proficiency.'

Others say, since it's listed in the martial weaponry list, only those with martial weapon proficiency are able to make shield bashes. This too makes sense, since it is listed as such. They work as defense first, offense second. Two uses equals two types of proficiencies.

I even thought to look through the NPC Codex through all the relevant entries, but none of them use shield bash (even one cleric that has Improved Shield Bash as a feat doesn't use it!).

So I'm wondering if my Google-Fu has failed me, if someone knows of an official answer, or if somehow there's a way to get an official ruling.

[Seranov]

Nope. A Cleric, Bard or Druid only has Proficiency with shields/bucklers to wear them, not to club people with them.

Any argument otherwise wishes to simply ignore the fact that they don't have Martial Weapon Proficiency, and therefore cannot make Shield Bash attacks without the -4 penalty.

[Bearlock]

By RAW, since shields as bashing weapons are listed under martial weapons if you are not prof with martial weapons, you cannot shield bash.

Myself, if you're burning a feat on Imp Shield Bash, I would allow it. Most cases if you have a 3/4 BAB class and are focusing on TWF or being in melee, you are dipping a level of a full BAB class that grants martial weapon prof. But even if you didn't dip anything, I would allow it.

my 2cp

[Grick]

Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:

Is someone proficient with shields but not martial weaponry (i.e. bard, cleric, druid) able to make a shield bash attack without a -4 penalty?

Shield Bash Attacks: "You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."

If you are not proficient with martial weapons, you are not proficient when using a shield to bash.

Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:

Some say proficiency is the whole item, so wielding a shield defensively and making a shield bash are both covered.

Shield Proficiency (Combat): "When you use a shield (except a tower shield), the shield's armor check penalty only applies to Strength- and Dexterity-based skills. Normal: When you are using a shield with which you are not proficient, you take the shield's armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all skill checks that involve moving."

The feat removes ACP to attack and non-dex-based movement skill checks.

Pinstripedbarbarian wrote:

If it was separate, Improved Shield Bash would have 'Shield Proficiency and Martial Weapon Proficiency (Shield)' as prerequisites instead of just 'Shield Proficiency.'

Non-proficiency doesn't prevent you from making the attack, it just applies a penalty.

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Since a shield bash or shield spike is a martial weapon, the cleric in this case could use the attack but would take the -4 penalty for not being proficient.

[Pinstripedbarbarian]

Grick wrote:

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Since a shield bash or shield spike is a martial weapon, the cleric in this case could use the attack but would take the -4 penalty for not being proficient.

This is all I was looking for: a concise, direct, official answer to the question. Thank you.