I don't normally go for PvP, but the Paladin has pushed this character to the breaking point, and it's permitted in this campaign. Both characters are Level 5.
The Paladin is "Lawful Good" pretty much in name only. He's being played more Chaotic Stupid than anything else, repeatedly wrecking out attempts to hide from deadly monsters, taunting friendly NPCs to attack us, and ridiculing other player-characters for simple, understandable mistakes.
This L5 Wizard is looking for tactics that could kill the Paladin before the Paladin could kill him (either in combat or by deliberately "accidentally" getting me killed.
(I'm trying to plan for every potential eventuality, so I have a chance to survive if this comes to blows)
Please and Thank You!
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sounds like the player, not the character, is at issue here
also, target touch AC.
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If the paladin is poor with ranged attacks, fly out of reach and rain down scorching rays on him. Riding out of reach may be an option if the paladin doesn't ride and you can buy a warhorse, at least on open terrain.
If the paladin is OK with ranged attacks then you'll need mirror image as well. Prebuffing is the answer here. PvP with equal preparation is inadvisable.
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It's simple. You get another paladin and/or the order/religion the Paladin represents and have THEM deal with his stupidity.
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I agree this is probably a player problem and should be talked out either with the other player or with the GM.
Alternatively, leave the group either in character or in real life. Would this Wizard really put up with his crap? Should YOU?
Alternatively to alternatively, who is his deity? Make a Knowledge(Religion) check and point out what he's doing wrong. Someone who is a Paladin, who has sworn to themself to follow a set of ideals, should be concerned if someone points out to them something they should have realized immediately. If the character isn't concerned, the GM might get a hint and realize the character is nonsense and the player is being an a%%!&%!.
Burning Disarm, the Paladin is likely to make the save, so drops their weapon.
You can voluntarily fail a save if you want to.
Illusion some innocents and make them look like goblins(or Infernal Healing on said innocents), Paladin charges and falls.
That only really works if the Wizard is Evil or doesn't mind bumping themself toward Evil because that's how far they've been pushed.
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I'm always for talking with a player over conflict with a character; this idea that you can play any character any way doesn't fly at my table. You want to be an honorable White Knight type with the sweet powers to match? You'd best be ready to act the part.
But, assuming that doesn't work here, my suggestion would be as follows:
-see if you can get anyone else on your team. PvP is tricky. 2Pv1P is a lot less so.
-wait until you're in a wide-open space, far from civilization. The less cover, the better.
-Fly, Protection from Arrows, Wind Wall, Mage Armor, Shield, Mirror Image.
-Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile, Scorching Ray.
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I'd almost bet it's a problem with the player. I've seen this a couple of times over the years. Chances are talking with the player won't change anything, so PvP may be the only option. Buff up, like has been suggested. Use Fly, Improved Invisibility, and as many damaging spells as you can dig up. Also, mind-controlling spells as well. Too bad you're not evil, because I'd poison him.
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I'd almost bet it's a problem with the player. I've seen this a couple of times over the years. Chances are talking with the player won't change anything, so PvP may be the only option. Buff up, like has been suggested. Use Fly, Improved Invisibility, and as many damaging spells as you can dig up. Also, mind-controlling spells as well. Too bad you're not evil, because I'd poison him.
You hit the nail on the head.
My character has been NG thusfar, but is on the verge of murdering this paladin to save the party from inevitable death by deliberate stupidity.
Q: Do you think that should force an alignment shift, or would it be justifiable extenuating circumstances? Does the method of execution matter?
I have Poison I'm holding for the party...
I have access to flight, but being the utility caster (magical replacement for the Rogue the party doesn't have), I don't have much means of damage other than a Fireball and Snowball.
Well, providing you can get to a city with spellcasters before the showdown occurs, buy scrolls of other spells. Maybe as many as you can afford. Add Mage Armor and Shield to your defenses. I found a wonderful spell called Murderous Command that would make him attack a party member but alas, it's not a Sorcerer/Wizard spell.
Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol
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Actually using poison on a character with a good Fort save and Cha added to saves is a mugs' game though.
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Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lol
I don't see the "poison = Evil" connection. There's literally nothing to support that. The actual problem with poison is as avr says.
I have Poison I'm holding for the party...How does your Paladin feel about using poison?
Most Lawful Stupid Paladins consider it a violation of their oaths or something to use Poison.
If that's the kind of Paladin he is, you should surreptitiously poison the Paladin's sword. When he kills someone with poison, he'll lose his Paladin abilities until he atones.
While he's atoning, get him to roll up another character, one that doesn't suck this time.
To break the paladin’s code requires the paladin to knowingly do something. This type of tactics do not work.
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My character has been NG thusfar, but is on the verge of murdering this paladin to save the party from inevitable death by deliberate stupidity.Q: Do you think that should force an alignment shift, or would it be justifiable extenuating circumstances? Does the method of execution matter?
As a Good character, especially Neutral Good, your character likely wouldn't resort to murdering him for the benefit of the party, but rather attempting to remove him from the group some other way. The most obvious, most sensible, and potentially easiest solution would be to contact a relatively high authority of the religion of the Paladin's deity. They may be able to set him straight, remind him of what he stands for, and make something constructive out of the situation.
However, if you really feel like this has had enough of an effect on your character that they may be starting to reconsider their outlook on things, you might start changing their behaviour a little as a result, potentially even informing the GM that you don't believe Neutral Good suits your character's personality anymore and ask to shift your alignment to True Neutral. YOU are clearly wondering about how you might be rid of this guy, possibly in a permanent sort of way, so you should carefully think about if your character would be thinking the same thing.
Using the poison would be an alignment changing act, I'd think. But it might be worth it...lolI don't see the "poison = Evil" connection. There's literally nothing to support that. The actual problem with poison is as avr says.
Eh, misremembering something I read somewhere, I guess. *shrugs*
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Have you talked to the GM about his behavior? If the paladin is actually acting in a chaotic manner his alignment should have shifted to neutral good and he should already be an ex-paladin.
What I would be inclined to do is to call out the paladins actions as putting innocents in danger. If the friendly NPC’s have any kind of authority point out that he needs to respect their authority. And if his deity has a paladin’s code check to make sure he is following that.
How does the rest of the group feel about his actions? If they are also sick of it have one of the players appointed as the official leader of the group. Now when the paladin disobeys the leaders order you have a legitimate reason for him to at least get a warning he is violating his code. If there is a cleric of his deity in the party make sure he becomes the leader and his character is going to be in double jeopardy when he disobeys an order.
This is a much better way of dealing with a misbehaving paladin than trying to trick him into unknowingly doing something that violates his code.
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I was in a similar situation myself, only in that case, the paladin (of Aroden somehow) was bullying everyone, and the GM allowed it. Another player backed me up when I tattled to the GM, the player refused to believe he did anything wrong, then told us we were over-reacting, but PvP was not allowed.
So the only spell I cast on him was Enlarge Person in the hopes of making him a bigger target when he'd inevitably charge and alert everyone within shouting distance to his presence. When that didn't work, my character announced, "I don't want to be human any more," but nobody realized why. Then I announced I'd hand over a written transcript of all my findings to the Pathfinder Society, apologize to the others for being unable to cope with this undeserving, deluded battle oracle, and left to another continent.
Basically, when I couldn't take it any more, I left and put the same character into another AP that different people were partway through. He was my first character to never get killed in either adventure.
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UH.....just coup de grace him in his sleep no need to make it complicated. On your watch fire some crittable ray or touch spell into his face, people at level 5 don't make that kind of fort save unless you roll disastrously low on damage
Have you talked to the GM about his behavior? If the paladin is actually acting in a chaotic manner his alignment should have shifted to neutral good and he should already be an ex-paladin.
What I would be inclined to do is to call out the paladins actions as putting innocents in danger. If the friendly NPC’s have any kind of authority point out that he needs to respect their authority. And if his deity has a paladin’s code check to make sure he is following that.
How does the rest of the group feel about his actions? If they are also sick of it have one of the players appointed as the official leader of the group. Now when the paladin disobeys the leaders order you have a legitimate reason for him to at least get a warning he is violating his code. If there is a cleric of his deity in the party make sure he becomes the leader and his character is going to be in double jeopardy when he disobeys an order.
This is a much better way of dealing with a misbehaving paladin than trying to trick him into unknowingly doing something that violates his code.
There's no authority available for my character to tattle to in the current location, and the only places safe from the monsters are the ones that our welcome was worn out by the Paladin, causing the "too powerful to bother killing us" monstrous NPCs to kick us out.
The next time I see the GM, I'll detail how the Paladin's actions have been overtly Chaotic, and his alignment should shift. The DM has expressed amusement at the likelihood of the party killing the Paladin.
(The player's favored style is "too stupid to not rashly do something that endangers the party". It's like the murderhobo, but with noisily prying open crates to see what's inside when we're hiding from a monster that hunts by sound... so he's indirectly trying to get the party killed, so I doubt any intervention would work, as this is out-of-character knowledge of the player stacking with in-character frustration at being pushed around and berated by the one who should be the champion of goodness)
As for the rest of the group, one is likely to be on my side, one on his, and the fifth is a mystery, not having been part of the dispute.
You don’t necessarily need an authority to call it out to. Use it as a roleplay opportunity and a subtle way of causing the GM and other player to put some pressure on it. Lay some ground work before doing anything.
If the player (Not the character) is trying to get the party killed you need to have a serious talk with the GM about his actions.
Pit trap under paladin, summon swarm at bottom...
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True. But whether talking to the player will change anything is not guaranteed.
You know the guy, we don't.
If you think he can be reasoned with, it's always the better option.
If not, well, again, depends on him. Chances are things aren't going to end well and nice. For killing him, sleeping people don't fight back much. If awake, you're a utility caster, I' d look at control and party buffs to beat him as a group.
Or, just don't fight. Refuse to deal with his nonsense.
It's hardly necessary to kill him, and risky to boot, when you can just kick him out of the party. No reason for the rest of you to tolerate someone actively trying to get them killed, or at the very least unwilling to play along with what the rest of the group has planned.
Reckless behavior and willing, unrepentant stupidity are a good enough reason to abandon a burden of a partymate.
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"Wizard looking for an option to take out the Paladin. "
well, have you tried a dozen roses and a small valentine invitation? Perhaps a bottle of his favorite Adult Beverage, presented on ice in the tavern one evening after a long day of slaying evil creatures? Point out shared interests in quite walks along the beach ...
He may be a bit focused - perhaps even Divinely Inspired, but with a little work you should be able to wear down his resistance and ... what?
Oh... Sorry! never mind then. Moving on...
Distance yourself from him. Retreat when he gives away your position, avoid him when in civilization so he causes problems for himself only, and make it clear that you aren't affiliated with him in any other social encounters.
If you absolutely need to kill him, still do this stuff. Then, one morning, leave early for the next adventure, set up a couple Calistria's Guardian Wasp spells in the direction you expect the paladin to head off on his own, and let him get slowly picked to death by creatures otherwise immune to his abilities. If done in secret, the paladin should have no idea that this was your fault and the DM should have no reason to reveal it to you. Summon swarm and invisibility would give you cheaper method, and you could do it during combat to excuse the friendly fire, but the guardian wasps are the cleaner kill.
I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."
And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.
This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).
Does that affect anyone's opinions?
My current thought is the next time he tries to back-hand my character, taking to the sky, dropping a pit under him, then roasting him with Fireball and any other damaging spells/scrolls I have, before leaving and letting the monsters that heard the noise finish him off while I go hide. I just don't know if the party will join me, join him, or want to be somewhere safe while this plays out.
I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."
And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.
This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).
Does that affect anyone's opinions?
It solidifies mine, don't f&$& around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.
It solidifies mine, don't f@!@ around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).
Does that affect anyone's opinions?
I don't have confidence in this character's ability to kill the Paladin in the one hit of the Coup-De-Grace. He's built as more of a tank than a damage dealer. I haven't seen his Character Sheet, but I expect his Con is about as high as my Intelligence.
You're level 5, assuming a standardish stat spread, if his con is +4 his cha is probably around +2 or 3.
level 5 paladin +4 base fort, +4 con +3 cha means +11 to fort saves, lets say a misc +1 resistance bonus from a cloak or some trait to bring it to +12
Take a heavy pick. 1d8 X4 crit. Bulls strength yourself min +2 damage assuming you aren't in the negatives for strength, assuming no other modifiers you're doing 4d8+8 on the crit meaning the lowest save is 22 and the highest is in the 40's. You only have an 8% chance of doing less than 20 damage according to rumkin.com's dice roller. At 20 damage his save not to die outright is 30, which means he needs to roll an 18 or higher on the d20 not to die outright.
You get a similar result from coup de gracing him with a shocking grasp.
Be more confident in your ability to kill him in 1 hit from a coup de grace
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Coup de grace is nasty. Take the 4d6 for a scorching ray, doubled for auto crit, 28 avg dmg. He will survive 28hp, but he now must make a fort save, DC 10 + dmg dealt, or die. So DC 38 save or die.
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What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?
Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.
Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.
What about the other characters? Are you alone in this? What do they think?
Offing a paladin might be tough for you alone, but if your team's backing you, whatever they may be, the game changes.
This sounds like a campaign where PvP is okay, so recruit your party.
One person shanking him in his sleep is one thing (probably enough, but still), three is another matter.Not only having allies will make it easier, but I'd argue if they disagree, you're just as likely to become the problem. And that's not good for the table.
OP explained this above. 1 with him, 1 with the paladin, 1 indifferent/unknown.
Also no, dont involve other players...do it like i advised, don't give the paladin or his ally an opportunity to respond, or even fight back. As many people said above, this is a player issue and there's no reason to fight even remotely fair or put your character at risk.
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So I guess I'm alone in the whole "Get a religious order to deal with this?"
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I think that's a good idea, Thomas. But the GM would have to run the response the order might have and it seems he/she is really lenient with this guy. It could turn out that nothing comes of that ploy.
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This is a highly skilled gaming group, a bit Gygaxian in play style , but one of the best I've met. I also play with several of them in other groups. The other groups each have their own dynamic, and the players adjust their play style to match. They also can't be flustered by anything(a factor in game sessions being largely enjoyable in spite of what the Paladin's player does)
This campaign is unique in its attrition element to party size, potentially running out of characters before reaching the end of the story.(I understand this type of game isn't for everyone, like playing Smash Bros with one life per character)
I'm a low-strength wizard with a dagger, no Power Attack or other melee feats. I think my max melee damage on a Crit is 8, and the Paladin likely has a +12 on his Fort Save (+4 Con, +3 Cha, +4 Base, +1 from cloak of resistance), meaning he'd only need to roll a 6+ on his Fort Save to survive the Coup-De-Grace. Not good odds for me.
I didn't think spells could be used for for a Coup-De-Grace? That would definitely change the landscape.
"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.
...This is a highly skilled gaming group, a bit Gygaxian in play style , but one of the best I've met. I also play with several of them in other groups. The other groups each have their own dynamic, and the players adjust their play style to match. They also can't be flustered by anything(a factor in game sessions being largely enjoyable in spite of what the Paladin's player does)
This campaign is unique in its attrition element to party size, potentially running out of characters before reaching the end of the story.(I understand this type of game isn't for everyone, like playing Smash Bros with one life per character)
I'm a low-strength wizard with a dagger, no Power Attack or other melee feats. I think my max melee damage on a Crit is 8, and the Paladin likely has a +12 on his Fort Save (+4 Con, +3 Cha, +4 Base, +1 from cloak of resistance), meaning he'd only need to roll a 6+ on his Fort Save to survive the Coup-De-Grace. Not good odds for me.
I didn't think spells could be used for for a Coup-De-Grace? That would definitely change the landscape.
"How likely is this to come to blows"
It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.
Next time he backhands you change your alignment from NG to N, given that your character is witnessing a champion of goodness.....actually how has he not fallen resorting to physical violence to impose his will on a fellow good aligned party member?
edit: also, you can ONLY coup de grace on spells that require an attack roll. Those spells have a 20 X2 crit rating
If you have a shocking grasp spell you should be able to perform a coup de grace with that. Even if you can't, proficiency in the weapon used is not required for a coup de grace, so if you can borrow a greataxe or whatever from the loot pile the paladin is still probably eating a DC 30ish Fort save.