Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Ryan's vision for crowdforging requires we should say so where our visions vary.
Just sayin'
I believe Ryan's vision of Crowdforging is for the community to help determine the priority of development efforts. I don't believe he wants us to expect to be able to fundamentally change key elements of the game.
[Edit] I am not saying that we shouldn't say so where our visions vary.
I'm simply expressing my own opinion that the global market is a very good idea. And I'm trying to get people to have reasonable expectations about the kinds of changes they're likely to get GW to make in the game. I might very well be wrong in doing the latter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO that will not work. If I want to buy something and I think is expensive I will need to go shop by shop, and city by city till I find it in a good price. We need at least a global board of prices.I don't think I could disagree more, LordDaeron. Let me share why.
The whole idea of an economy is the flow of goods and money not just from player to player but from place to place.
I don't see any disagreement between you at all to be honest. You are rallying against goods being teleported in transit, LordDaeron is also against goods being teleported, but wants the information of where they are public.
Both of you seem to be in favor of it say taking 30 minutes to get to the location with the goods, LD is just in favor of actually knowing what goods are at the end of the trip before you leave.
IMO not providing this information would be outside of the type of thing Ryan would ever propose. Why you may ask... pretty simple, Ryan opposes out of game secrete methods giving a huge advantage of people who stick with things in the game. If the developers do not provide a way to know what is at the end of a 15 minute trip, the players will develop webpages, forums etc... Quite simply in an MMO, if 1% of the players have a way to know something, it is safe to assume 90% of players will have access to that knowledge, and it is unfairly gimping the 10% that would see it as cheating if goblinworks didn't officially endorse such actions in some way.
(This could be done as simply as adding a trade forum to GW's official forums)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that having free global access to pricing information, either through a BB or a forum, defeats the intent of player interaction.
I can foresee a chartered company which trades in Price Information. They have members/buildings in each settlement and collect market information. For a fee you can subscribe to that information by going to the local company building and asking things like "Where can I find the best price for X", or "What is the lowest price for X in area Y". It could be a one time fee for a high priced item or a subscription for the serious trader. One could also (on the sly) pay to have their store mentioned first in pricing queries. It would ruin the rep of the Info Company to block the information of a particular trader (for a price), but preferential treatment (featured advertisers?) would be OK.
This would also be a great cover for a spy network.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that having free global access to pricing information, either through a BB or a forum, defeats the intent of player interaction.
I can foresee a chartered company which trades in Price Information. They have members/buildings in each settlement and collect market information. For a fee you can subscribe to that information by going to the local company building and asking things like "Where can I find the best price for X", or "What is the lowest price for X in area Y". It could be a one time fee for a high priced item or a subscription for the serious trader. One could also (on the sly) pay to have their store mentioned first in pricing queries. It would ruin the rep of the Info Company to block the information of a particular trader (for a price), but preferential treatment (featured advertisers?) would be OK.This would also be a great cover for a spy network.
Smart outlaws could falsify information to lure merchants to bring high value goods to a city along their normal "toll" routes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Smart outlaws could falsify information to lure merchants to bring high value goods to a city along their normal "toll" routes.I think that having free global access to pricing information, either through a BB or a forum, defeats the intent of player interaction.
I can foresee a chartered company which trades in Price Information. They have members/buildings in each settlement and collect market information. For a fee you can subscribe to that information by going to the local company building and asking things like "Where can I find the best price for X", or "What is the lowest price for X in area Y". It could be a one time fee for a high priced item or a subscription for the serious trader. One could also (on the sly) pay to have their store mentioned first in pricing queries. It would ruin the rep of the Info Company to block the information of a particular trader (for a price), but preferential treatment (featured advertisers?) would be OK.This would also be a great cover for a spy network.
I like it!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me that placing these kinds of burdens on the simple act of finding out what's for sale where will have a significant dampening effect on the market as a whole.
If I'm trying to get rich on Arbitrage - and Ryan has repeatedly said he expects this to happen a lot - then I need access to information about those diverse markets. If the cost of finding out whether or not I can make a profit is higher than my expected profit, then I'm simply not going to bother.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me that placing these kinds of burdens on the simple act of finding out what's for sale where will have a significant dampening effect on the market as a whole.
If I'm trying to get rich on Arbitrage - and Ryan has repeatedly said he expects this to happen a lot - then I need access to information about those diverse markets. If the cost of finding out whether or not I can make a profit is higher than my expected profit, then I'm simply not going to bother.
It would increase meaningful player interaction for you to build your own network of Arbitors sharing information and acting as one anothers' agents.
It would increase meaningful player interaction for players to actually shop around instead of psychicly making their purchase from twelve miles away, identifying exactly where they need to go and which vendor to interact with.
While I am totally behind some sort of information network you actively maintain with other players, and completely in favor of letting the shopper know where a crafter sells a particular item I don't think the player should know what the price of that item is until he gets there or even whether for sure that item is available when he arrives.
I don't think it is in the best interest of the game to psychicly purchase goods remotely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that having free global access to pricing information, either through a BB or a forum, defeats the intent of player interaction.
I can foresee a chartered company which trades in Price Information. They have members/buildings in each settlement and collect market information. For a fee you can subscribe to that information by going to the local company building and asking things like "Where can I find the best price for X", or "What is the lowest price for X in area Y". It could be a one time fee for a high priced item or a subscription for the serious trader. One could also (on the sly) pay to have their store mentioned first in pricing queries. It would ruin the rep of the Info Company to block the information of a particular trader (for a price), but preferential treatment (featured advertisers?) would be OK.This would also be a great cover for a spy network.
And this would be defeated how? Lets say goblin works wanted to... HOW would they stop it? Hire a team of hackers to shut down every forum, site etc... that attempts to list prices? Attempt to figure out who each user on each of these forums is to ban them?
If preventing client hacking is a losing battle, preventing people from putting things on the internet is a battle lost decades ago. Ask the RIAA who has thrown billions into the toilet trying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
And this would be defeated how? ...
Why would they want to defeat it? If it takes agents in every settlement to have a good idea what is for sale and how much is the going price how could that be anything but positive for meaningful player interaction?
Second: Minimum viable candidate is less if you don't have to program a global item & pricing system, but instead create only the mechanisms required for player storefronts which they would probably have to create for the economic model anyway.
It then becomes a player responsibility to set up a network of agents (probably the crafters themselves) to report externally what is available where and for how much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
How would my suggestion of a posting board for prices in starter towns clash with your views? The seller or his agent would have to physically travel to the board to post the goods, prices and location and the buyer would have to do the same to read the information. To me, this helps network buyers with sellers but maintains immersion and player interaction for the actual transaction.
A point I hadn't thought of before is that having these boards in starter towns would keep help ensure that even experienced players would return to towns periodically. One down side to completely self-sufficient player settlements is that NPC cities tend to become ghost towns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being,
How would my suggestion of a posting board for prices in starter towns clash with your views? ...
I don't think there is any incompatibility, Hobs. The idea is to get people and their money moving through the different settlements, and to give small settlements a way they can compete with large settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would they want to defeat it? If it takes agents in every settlement to have a good idea what is for sale and how much is the going price how could that be anything but positive for meaningful player interaction?...
And this would be defeated how? ...
Or it takes a client reading the data out of the game packets, parsing it to a price and posting online in realtime for everyone that installs the software. So the people that use the the software or just look at the website will have an unfair advantage over those who don't.
While there should only be local trading, I really think there should be some kind of Qadira(just an example, in the lore they are all about cornering trade) divination-based price boards that show the average prices for goods in all settlement. These can be built by settlements and require an upkeep like all other buildings, but knowing the price difference between your town and one an hour of real time travel away will let you know if it's worth the risk to move your goods that far to make a profit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lets remmember that travel, even fast travelling, will take normally more time in PFO than most MMOs we know...
If one have, lets say, 3 h to play per day but need to spend 2 hours travelling from town to town and looking at best prices, or even at the availability of some products (that, almost certainly, will not be present in all towns), it will let him with 1 h to PvE/PvP. Not a good "meaningfull human interaction"-like experience IMO.
Then they can just buy what's in town. No one's forcing you to get the best deal. And frankly, if everyone was, then the "best" deal would become the only deal, as who would sell higher?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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A point I hadn't thought of before is that having these boards in starter towns would keep help ensure that even experienced players would return to towns periodically. One down side to completely self-sufficient player settlements is that NPC cities tend to become ghost towns.
Just a side note
No Settlement should be self-sustaining; trade is a requirement beyond the basics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In a traditional AH, there is no need for advertising, for seeking the best deal (short of a search feature and skimming to the lowest price listed), or for making deals. Everything is at your fingertips. Again, this does nothing for player interaction.
I would love to see merchants have to actually find ways to out-advertise their competitors. I would love to see people motivated to create new in-game ways of networking trade. Players, especially sandbox players, can be exceptionally ingenious when motivated. Again, let us not undercut that ingenuity for too much convenience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then they can just buy what's in town. No one's forcing you to get the best deal. And frankly, if everyone was, then the "best" deal would become the only deal, as who would sell higher?Lets remmember that travel, even fast travelling, will take normally more time in PFO than most MMOs we know...
If one have, lets say, 3 h to play per day but need to spend 2 hours travelling from town to town and looking at best prices, or even at the availability of some products (that, almost certainly, will not be present in all towns), it will let him with 1 h to PvE/PvP. Not a good "meaningfull human interaction"-like experience IMO.
Example:
If I have a shop in a settlement near thornkeep and the only place people can buy, lets say, copper is in my town or in a town far from mine close to the north border. To go there you need to cross a very, very, very dangerous road (if any road exist at all). Even if the price there is 50% cheaper the risk do not worth the travel in a long and dangerous road. So I could just raise my prices and profit as people would be forced to buy my stuff.
On the other hand, I can see firewood is cheap and sold everywhere, so I reduce the price and my profit margin, just to attract buyers.
IMO knowing stuff prices around makes commerce a lot more interesting , profitable and fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the post where I argued for localized markets almost a year ago...
From Do Auction Houses Suck?:
There should be something like an auction house, that gives buyers easy access to the shops that are easily accessible (the ones that are paying a premium for the best locations). A lot of players should be content with that.
In addition, there should be a Knowledge(Markets) Skill, preferably localized for each market, that gives you information about the less-accessible shops in that market: what they have for sale and at what price. The higher your rank in the skill, the more out-of-the-way shops you have information on.
And here's the post where Ryan explains very clearly why everyone will be able to see all the prices in all the markets.
From Goblinworks Blog: Money Changes Everything:
Pathfinder's take on sandbox economics sounds interesting, and very much like Eve, at first glance. Perhaps too much like Eve in the sense of the speed and miraculous availability of information the description implies to me.Information will propagate instantly, whether it is done in-game or out-of-game. It's trivially easy to ensure that you have up-to-the-second pricing and availability info anywhere that you care about by using alts.
So rather than put players who don't understand that at a disadvantage, we'll just provide those tools to everyone automatically.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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Second option: If the problem with my desired model is that hackers could harvest packet info revealing the availability and going price for items offered for sale, coupled with the potential for some to have this advantage where others do not, then let GW build that function but disallow actual purchases through it.
The predictable and exclusivity features of the Hack is averted but people still have to negotiate the actual purchase in the settlement, and without any assurance that their item has not been already sold to someone else who got there first. The ability of a small settlement to compete with a large settlement is compromised because the large settlement has a way to undercut the price until the small shop goes out of business, but at least the people and money will circulate. The potential for an organization to gain a hopefully temporary monopoly is increased but resource distribution might compensate.
My worry is multifold, to incude monopolies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you really think people are going to want to have to click through 20-50-100 different ah's every time they come to town to but a few items? It might be cool ONCE. Anything after that its just frustrating tedium.
Some people like to be fully immersed in their game. For them, finding the right shops and building connections with the right people to get the items they want is part of the fun of the game. Running those shops and attracting customers is part of the fun of the game. An auction house cuts out tedium for some, but for many it also cuts out content, player interaction, and the feel of really being part of the world.
There are already A LOT of games on the market that cut out a massive portions of the content to deliver everything to players faster and easier.
Notice we are sitting here shelling out hundreds of dollars for this game and discussing how we would like it to be, rather than playing those games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being
Devs can always interfere if the notice some sort of abusive monopoly. For example, creating new sources of some natural resource near other towns, or putting a NPC seller with low prices in another town etc. If people abuse, some mechanism could be worked to detain that nocive behaviour, as it could be seen as a sort of griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have any objection to requiring the purchaser to be locally present in order to execute the Buy Order. I would very much object to requiring both parties to be online and present in order to execute the transaction.
Monopolies generally only occur when there are external forces protecting them from competition, such as corrupt government regulators/regulations. I think it will be nearly impossible for any group to form an actual monopoly on any resources in PFO. I'm confident Ryan would take action to break that monopoly if it did occur.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being
Devs can always interfere if the notice some sort of abusive monopoly. For example, creating new sources of some natural resource near other towns, or putting a NPC seller with low prices in another town etc. If people abuse, some mechanism could be worked to detain that nocive behaviour, as it could be seen as a sort of griefing.
As well I believe Ryan has mentioned they already came up with a solution. Resource nodes, dungeons etc... are not permanent. You use em up, they vanish, new ones appear elsewhere, and with a bias towards appearing in hexes far away from developed hexes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@LordDaeron
I think it would be an awfully extreme case before the devs would interfere.It is something kingdoms go to war over.
Very unlikely they would interfere with a well organized operation like that.
Indeed just a monopoly is no reason to interfere. Go to war and break the monopoly, that is the solution. Only "market griefing" pratics may me addressed by the DEVs.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Here is where I think we are in terms of a design:
Each Settlement will have a central market. In order to place a buy or sell order on that market you will have to physically visit that market. Information about the buy & sell orders on the market will be visible to you depending on the state of your character's abilities. Everyone will be able to go to a Settlement and see it's market orders, but some characters may be able to get that information at a distance.
When you place a sell order you'll put the inventory into escrow at the Settlement where you're placing the order. When you place a buy order you'll place the price into escrow and when the order matches, your inventory will be delivered to the Settlement where the sell order was posted. You'll have to transport the material from there to wherever else you need it if you wish to move it elsewhere.
Realistically there will be players who set up alts in every Settlement and generate near-real time information on every market, then centralize that information in tools they either keep proprietary or make available to the whole community. There's virtually no way to stop that from happening, so we'll just accept it and move on.
You will be able to control the price you offer to buy or sell an item at. So you will be able to compete with other market participants on price and quantity. When a sell order and a buy order match, they'll be immediately filled. Purchasing something by browsing the market, seeing an item at a price you want to pay, and buying it on the spot will be supported as well (you'll likely always pay the lowest offered price, to avoid scams and accidents).
We may or may not make visible the information about who is doing the buying and the selling. We will make visible price data for every item type so you can see the market price history and volume data.
This is all essentially identical to the EVE system.
Before we can talk about independent shops or bazaars we need to get at least this level of functionality implemented first, so until all of that content is deployed, we won't be Crowdforging on the question of what else to do with markets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That would be phenmonenal if we could set up shops at settlements.
I plan to be a dedicated crafter, so this is something I would do if there was an option. Although I would want to set it up 'inside' the settlement, not on the outside walls.
I understand about the thing with space, but I feel there can be restrictions to keep down everyone doing so (besides spending the money).
I am thinking maybe going down the Profession skill tree route for Merchant? And the accompanying merit badges, as well. I think that would keep those who adventure, and just want to set up shop because they have the funds, because they now need to build up the Merchant skill and get the associative merit badge, as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm simply expressing my own opinion that the global market is a very good idea. And I'm trying to get people to have reasonable expectations about the kinds of changes they're likely to get GW to make in the game. I might very well be wrong in doing the latter.
... until all of that content is deployed, we won't be Crowdforging on the question of what else to do with markets.
As long as I keep turning out to be correct, I'll probably keep trying...
From Are there any players who are very leery of non consensual PVP?:
Diego, I don't have a link, but there's a post from either Ryan Dancey or Vic Wertz talking about how the entire 1-20 level range in PFO will be roughly equivalent to the 6-10 level range in PathFinder RPG.This is incorrect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm simply expressing my own opinion that the global market is a very good idea. And I'm trying to get people to have reasonable expectations about the kinds of changes they're likely to get GW to make in the game. I might very well be wrong in doing the latter.... until all of that content is deployed, we won't be Crowdforging on the question of what else to do with markets.As long as I keep turning out to be correct, I'll probably keep trying...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm... I'm crushed, Nihimon. There you were on the pedestal, all shiny and pristine...and then you disclosed the source of the rattling in your closet.
Good thing, though: You were nearly brought up on charges of pedestalry.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
LordDaeron,
No, I did not mean spamming a channel when I said advertisement. Personally, I would like to see most chat channels done away with. By creative advertising, I meant spreading the word the old fashioned way, whether that means you shouting out your wares on the street corner or by word of mouth through loyal customers, by utilizing in-game post-boards, through player writable books (if such will exist), etc.
Ryan,
I would strongly favor being allowed to see the name of the person selling goods on the AH. Not only does it help promote strong customer loyalty, but it also may help curb poor player behavior. If someone is acting like a jerk, they may decide to act less that way when people stop buying their goods as a show of dissatisfaction with Mr. Jerk's behavior. Natural consequences tend to be the best deterrent of poor behavior.
If we're already going the route of immersion breaking AH's, then I would also like to see the name of the buyer. When I ran my harvested supply company in Rift, I would read who bought my goods off the AH and send them an e-mail, not only saying thank you, but to let them know about other goods I had in stock that might not have been on the AH and to promote future buyer-to-seller interactions which would circumvent the AH all together.
Nihimon,
If the game allows for a monopoly, I would hope the devs would not get involved. The whole point of a sandbox, player-run economy is that for all but true exploits, cheats, and hacks, the economy should regulate itself. Monopolies of needed goods should be countered by boycotts, undercut pricing by those few others who have the desired commodity, hired raids on that company's caravans to free up supplies, black market sales, and all out war. As mentioned above by another poster, in that resource nodes will move, I think there is little chance that any particular resource, especially rare resources, will be controlled by any one group the way they are in games where a particular resource is only found in one spot. Add to that the proposed level of danger in the regions where the most valued resources will be located. If your company can actually keep finding these rare resources in the most dangerous of locales, more power to you. Given the effort, manpower, and organization that would require, you deserve your monopoly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
If we're already going the route of immersion breaking AH's...
See, I'd didn't take that as my walk-away. I think Ryan was pointing out that getting the market database right to handle all the transactions is the priority, and considering all the cases we've seen in the past where a game is released but the market is a mess his point is well taken.
Once they have the database right then we can talk about how we would like the market to be later.
As a database guy I think his point was well made. I got the sense that he has a reasonable grasp of where we were trying to go with it but his first concern is to get the system up and running.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm... I'm crushed, Nihimon. There you were on the pedestal, all shiny and pristine...and then you disclosed the source of the rattling in your closet.
Good thing, though: You were nearly brought up on charges of pedestalry.
First, I initially read that as "pederasty". Quite unpleasant thought, that.
Second, those who really delve into the matter, or have very good memories, will realize I'm not being as humble as it might appear at first glance :)
If the game allows for a monopoly, I would hope the devs would not get involved.
If the game allows a monopoly by design, then I agree. My understanding is that the game is being designed with the desire that monopolies would not exist.
It's also important to keep in mind that monopolies aren't bad in themselves. If they exist simply because there is no competition, that's fine. The problem occurs when a monopoly is able to hinder any potential competition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not being a database guy, I will leave that up to those of you who are. :)
My calling it "immersion breaking" is that it is an automated system that handles transactions in a world where automated things should not exist. Having an automated market in something like SWG, that's more understandable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't say I'm happy with the information age being brought into a medieval fantasy setting. In many traditional business models the selling price of a good or service is considered privileged information. Granted that’s a bit of an old school approach but so is hitting people with swords and ridding donkeys. Having magical tickertape machines everywhere is just blah.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can't say I'm happy with the information age being brought into a medieval fantasy setting.
Neither was I.
From Knowledge Skills in the Information Age - A possible solution:
There's been some discussion recently about the difficulty of making knowledge-based skills in PFO, when the players have access to Information Age technology that will let them instantly share that knowledge with anyone in the world. Specifically with regards to character knowledge of prices in faraway markets.
That's from April, 2012.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, that was the impetus for my epiphany that the real solution to this general problem is to model "information" as an in-game object which must be possessed by the character in order for the character to act upon it. It's not a silver bullet - it will require a lot of work, and a real commitment to the principle, for this to come to fruition. However, once it does, it will really open up a lot of new dynamics, especially with respect to espionage and the problem of spy alts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is all essentially identical to the EVE system.
I hope you'll NOT include the "minimum volume" feature for buy/sell orders, whose only practical use in EVE seems to be to facilitate market scams.
I'm... I'm crushed, Nihimon. There you were on the pedestal, all shiny and pristine...
Damn pedephiles ;)
Actually, that was the impetus for my epiphany that the real solution to this general problem is to model "information" as an in-game object which must be possessed by the character in order for the character to act upon it. It's not a silver bullet - it will require a lot of work, and a real commitment to the principle, for this to come to fruition. However, once it does, it will really open up a lot of new dynamics, especially with respect to espionage and the problem of spy alts.
Now that sounds like an intriguing idea. However it obviously goes right to the core of the game and pretty much every single mechanic would have to take it into consideration, but intriguing nonetheless, and would allow all kinds of emergent behaviours. I don't suppose you have somewhere a more-developed concept of this idea?
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is all essentially identical to the EVE system.
I was kind of afraid of that. Just like I was afraid that would be what happened to the crafting system.
There is a lot good about these systems but everything in EVE seems very hands off and impersonal to me. I find myself rarely talking to other players in EVE because that game's systems don't promote face to face player interaction with anything but guns. If I want a sword I would like to go to a sword shop. If I want a horse or a mule I want to go to stable. I don't want to sit in one place in the center of town and browse menus to find my goods.
I understand why you are doing this. It is a simple and easy system. And I agree with doing it early on the the crowd-forger process to some extent. I'd really rather see a stall system as a starting point like you have in some other games that players can set up stalls where they place items and set a price, and then work forward from that system into something more complex that doesn't clutter the streets as much. A good example of a stall system is Knight Online.
I think in the future people are going to want to see blacksmith shops, and general stores, and own their own shops more than they want to go to one place owned by the city itself to have all their needs met.
I think small shops run by 1-5 player will be out of the question if an EVE style market exists unless you tax the crap out of it.
So like with the EVE crafting system I'll say, it works as a starting point but it shouldn't be the finish line. Unlike the EVE crafting system I'll say the EVE trade system should be almost entirely phased out over time or taxed enough to make small shops competitive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,I would strongly favor being allowed to see the name of the person selling goods on the AH. Not only does it help promote strong customer loyalty, but it also may help curb poor player behavior. If someone is acting like a jerk, they may decide to act less that way when people stop buying their goods as a show of dissatisfaction with Mr. Jerk's behavior. Natural consequences tend to be the best deterrent of poor behavior.
If we're already going the route of immersion breaking AH's, then I would also like to see the name of the buyer. When I ran my harvested supply company in Rift, I would read who bought my goods off the AH and send them an e-mail, not only saying thank you, but to let them know about other goods I had in stock that might not have been on the AH and to promote future buyer-to-seller interactions which would circumvent the AH all together.
I second you in that request. I wouldn't like to anonymously buy stuff from people I know just robbed a caravan of my guild, for example. Still they can have alts to sell their stuff, but I fell better having a lesser chance of giving my money to them.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The Common Folk are the people who are actually buying and selling and handling the goods and the payment. Player Characters are just posting buy and sell orders. Remember that your characters are just the tip of a very large iceberg of people you don't see, who actually do most of the "work" in the game on your behalf.
Just like you don't know where the gas in your car came from, you won't know where the stuff you buy on the market comes from. Once it goes into the market it becomes anonymized. We are hoping to be able to track crafter info for some items, but that's different than who bought or sold a thing.
The reason for this is to avoid griefing. It's easy to imagine all sorts of scenarios where a group targets another group in Market PvP if they can see who is posting the buy and sell orders.
Here's an easy example: You see that Bob, who is known to be a market-maker in Settlement Bigville is buying lots of materials that are used as precursors for siege engines. Using this information you are able to drive the price up on other necessary materials for siege warfare in Bob's home region, forcing him to either pay inflated prices or to have to buy at a distance and transport. Also, your knowledge that he's making siege engines allows you to harden your defenses against the upcoming war that he's just telegraphed to you.
Here's another example: You see that Dave, who is known to be a market-maker in Settlement Smalltown is selling components you know that Smalltown produces in quantity. You buy all of Dave's sell orders, taking all his inventory off the market, then you resell the same components at a higher price, after moving the components to a market that is inconvenient for Dave to supply. You have both cheated Dave of profit, and you've moved his buyers to a place he'll have a hard time doing business in even after you stop trying to harm him.
Realistically, if you could see the name of the person placing a buy or sell order, what will swiftly happen is that players will create anonymous, reputation-free alts to buy and sell on their behalf, and/or a small number of characters will get insanely rich by acting as "trusted" buyers and sellers for other unsavory characters. What won't ever happen is that you'll likely see someone putting in a buy or sell order that would influence your decision to buy or not buy, except in very special, mostly boring corner cases.
It's an example of "wouldn't it be cool if X / therefore nobody does X".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's another example: You see that Dave, who is known to be a market-maker in Settlement Smalltown is selling components you know that Smalltown produces in quantity. You buy all of Dave's sell orders, taking all his inventory off the market, then you resell the same components at a higher price, after moving the components to a market that is inconvenient for Dave to supply. You have both cheated Dave of profit, and you've moved his buyers to a place he'll have a hard time doing business in even after you stop trying to harm him.
While I agree in principle that there are ways to target someone in Market PvP if you can know everyone's names by browsing the market, I don't think this example qualifies as griefing.
Anyone (with a big enough wallet) can come along and buy out a particular market, regardless of knowing who is selling or not, and move the goods elsewhere. Dave hasn't "lost" any profit at all - he has in fact sold all his stock at the listed price! Furthermore, Dave can simply restock his local market to avoid losing his local customers, and a new listing nearby is regular market PvP, whether they're Dave's former goods or not. I'm not sure there's any way you can grief someone by buying their stuff at the price they've set.
A follow-up question for you though: In EVE, at least you would know who was buying/selling something after concluding a transaction with them, by looking in your transaction log - do you intend to anonymize market transactions to the extent that this won't be visible either?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's an easy example: You see that Bob, who is known to be a market-maker in Settlement Bigville is buying lots of materials that are used as precursors for siege engines. Using this information you are able to drive the price up on other necessary materials for siege warfare in Bob's home region, forcing him to either pay inflated prices or to have to buy at a distance and transport. Also, your knowledge that he's making siege engines allows you to harden your defenses against the upcoming war that he's just telegraphed to you.
In the Kingmaker kingdom building system the Spymaster adds their ability bonus to Economy checks. I see a spy network in PFO functioning in the same fashion, in gathering information to improve the kingdom's economic position. I support Nihimon's idea of making information an in-game object. You guys are smart and I think you can make that work. So what if someone hacks the system. It's going to happen. That is no reason to give up.
Although its not in the near future I would like to vote in favor of players being able to set up an NPC vendor, like SWG had. This would allow players to have vendors outside of settlement walls if they wish, as well as having shops inside settlements.
I'm also in favor of crafted items bearing the name of the person who made them. I understand not showing who bought and sold items, but the crafters need the business that name recognition brings, especially as they raise into higher level products. IMO anyway.
The Eve style market system is better then the global AH system. I favor Andius's post about starting with this system, and hopefully being able to phase it out as a better system is eventually worked out and implemented.
I think the majority of posters are for a simpler, less automated system then games are using now for their trade. Impersonal best describes the systems in place now. IMO, PFO is trying to bring back a style of gaming where you need to get to know your guild members, your neighbors, your settlement members. I think a more uniquely PF trade system can be worked out, even if it takes a while, it'll be worth it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see either of Ryan's example as griefing, but rather clever market manipulation.
People don't like their markets and their gold being messed with, but I honestly see this as no different to some PC Barbarian smashing your face in with a greataxe because you wandered into his territory. Both have ways of being combated, you just have to figure them out and train them up.
That said, I also advocate the anonymous selling feature. If you despise some individual or company, be careful what you buy on the market lest you accidently support them. Hire a rogue to sniff such things out for you :)