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Goblinworks Blog: Money Changes Everything


Pathfinder Online

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Paizo Employee Paizo Glitterati Robot

Added discussion thread for Goblinworks Blog: Money Changes Everything.

Shadow Lodge

...so you can buy skill training with real-world cash now.

I'm not sure that I like that - the skill-training system may have removed the benefit to people with more time than average, but you've just skewed it in favour of people with lots of disposable income.

How much would it cost to buy the training for an instant start-to-capstone class boost, and how long before someone buys it?

Edit: corrected spelling.


I am impressed with most of what was outlined. However, I'd love a little clarity on: "paying for skill training". This sounds an awful lot like a roundabout way of charging to level up; or pay2win.

If this is free to subscribers I'd have no issues with it. At that point the game is "Freemium" which is a good business model. If it isn't, it sounds quite a bit too RL money intensive to be alluring as a gamer on a budget of $15/m for online entertainment.

Goblin Squad Member

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Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:

...so you can buy skill training with real-world cash now.

I'm not sure that I like that - the skill-training system may have removed the benefit to people with more time than average, but you've just skewed it in favour of people with lots of disposable income.

How much would it cost to by the training for an instant start-to-capstone class boost, and how long before someone buys it?

I think people are misunderstanding skill training. From what I'm hearing it sounds like it is talking about time. IE it is basically a monthly subscription, you can play without paying but your character will not advance.

As far as I can tell, it does not sound like it bypasses the time requirement, it is a part of the time requirement. IE a month you did not pay, you cannot train. Buying to cap, means paying for a 2.5 year subscription, that 2.5 years still has to pass while you train.

IMO this system sounds potentially very good. If someone has no money and wants to still play, they could alternate months, IE one month focus purely on cash with the character not training, so that the next month they could buy the ability to level etc...

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
How much would it cost to buy the training for an instant start-to-capstone class boost, and how long before someone buys it?

That's not how skill training will work. One character can train one skill at a time, and the time it takes a character to train a particular level of a particular skill is fixed. You can't spend money, real or virtual, to speed up the process.

Shadow Lodge

@Onishi:

If that's true, then I don't imagine there being many free-to-play players, which will drive the server population down - never a particularly good thing for an MMO.

Edit: @Vic - that's good to hear, but does that then mean that Onishi was correct in his assessment? What will be the nature of this stated money-to-training relationship?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Onishi wrote:
...you can play without paying but your character will not advance.

...until (as we pointed out in the blog) your character gets enough in-game coin to purchase training.

Goblin Squad Member

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:

@Onishi:

If that's true, then I don't imagine there being many free-to-play players, which will drive the server population down - never a particularly good thing for an MMO.

Edit: @Vic - that's good to hear, but does that then mean that Onishi was correct in his assessment? What will be the nature of this stated money-to-training relationship?

Well GW isn't after the typical F2P market, with rapid random spikes of players that the f2p market tends to get. They are more after the type market that eve has, IE slow steady growth, which has succeeded with eves subscription service, and then the plex option for people who would want to spend more time gathering in game money, to save them from spending real money.

Goblin Squad Member

Vic Wertz wrote:
Onishi wrote:
...you can play without paying but your character will not advance.
...until (as we pointed out in the blog) your character gets enough in-game coin to purchase training.

Indeed, my apologies, was more focusing on debunking the instant cap theory that I didn't clarify, I think I get what you guys are going with, and I indeed like it.

Shadow Lodge

While my initial (and continued) intention is to play as a subscriber - if the game's worth playing, it's worth paying for - the initial viewpoint of "this will be equally advantageous for people with time, money, both, or neither" looks like time and/or money will still confer a significant advantage. That in-game cash you just spent on training isn't going to buy that new sword, or that spellscroll, or those raw materials. Time to either pony up some cash or go gold-farming.

But I was feeling a mite pessimistic before I read the blog, so I may be misunderstanding things, or blowing it all out of proportion. The fact that my bank charges for spending currencies other than my native Sterling doesn't make this any better.

Goblin Squad Member

~Support for in-game player-run credit/banking

Allow currency to be tagged, the creditor has true ownership of all things purchased by their currency. This can be exploited at a low level, but something like a settlement could find it's self re-po'd if they don't keep up on payments.

Basic idea, it needs more security clauses, and some way for bankers to seize assets of a player who owes them money after xx amount of time.

Goblin Squad Member

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Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
...so you can buy skill training with real-world cash now.

You can buy skill training time.

RyanD

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
While my initial (and continued) intention is to play as a subscriber - if the game's worth playing, it's worth paying for - the initial viewpoint of "this will be equally advantageous for people with time, money, both, or neither" looks like time and/or money will still confer a significant advantage.

It's true that if you want to play for free, you'll likely need to work pretty hard to keep leveling up at the same rate as subscribers and other paying players.

Keep in mind, though, that we've said that relative power levels between low- and high-level players will be much smaller than in other games; in Pathfinder Online, leveling brings flexibility more than raw power.

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
That in-game cash you just spent on training isn't going to buy that new sword, or that spellscroll, or those raw materials.

If you have limited coin, you'll need to prioritize those things.

Goblin Squad Member

Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
... the initial viewpoint of "this will be equally advantageous for people with time, money, both, or neither" looks like time and/or money will still confer a significant advantage...

I don't know if there's a method to cross all these off and still confer any sort of equality, while still maintaining a business model that requires a profit at the end of the day.

Also, I suspect your impression of Payed or Time based advantage to be somewhat overreaction. As has been discussed, there will likely be a closer relationship between someone of "low" power or experience (real-life not metaphorical) and someone with "high" power or experience than other highly mainstream themepark MMOs. As it stands, the only advantage I can think of by having Payed in real money is in-game economic benefit. While significant, this doesn't render the non-payer powerless in comparison. As for the Time-based advantage, I can't see how this is ever going to be a bad thing. While I won't have 50 hours a week to play PFO, I can't imagine someone who did have that kind of access not benefiting from the time spent just to match my lower level of commitment. That just doesn't seem fair. You play, you should be gaining advantage over people that don't.

To the actual post, I'm very pleased that such a fundamental economic view is being drawn out, and that the Devs seem to have a long picture in mind regarding the management of said economy. This fits into a number of sweet spots I've seen requested in the various economically related threads here. Break out your merchant wagons and hire some escorts, Its gonna be a long road between Riverwatch and Thornkeep

edit... damn, Ninja'd by Vic!

Goblin Squad Member

This is a great system for F2P players, you can actualy Play For Free!!!

Now it wont be easy for F2P to level their skills as it is for subs, but it is possible they will just have to grind for coin to buy training time.

Sounds like subscribers will have one character per account that can train skills, if we want two characters to train skills we will have to purchase additional training time. But with the option of buy training time with in-game coin for your second character it could be free!!

Great system I love it!!!

One thing I've noticed is that once players have established characters that own settlements or kingdoms, and controll large sums of coin could essentially play for free by buy unlimited amounts of training time. So what happens is beginning players pay subs and advanced players don't?

What benefit will a sub be for an advanced player that can always buy training with coin?

Goblin Squad Member

Question: Will it be cheaper to subscribe, or only pay for skill training time?

Sczarni Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
Question: Will it be cheaper to subscribe, or only pay for skill training time?

.

My guess - a subscription would include skill training time + 3-4 other things. and cost a bit more than the amount of skill training time alone would (say 7 instead of 5 to take numbers out of thin air)

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
Question: Will it be cheaper to subscribe, or only pay for skill training time?

I think the idea was to have a subscription be a more efficient way to go, but we're probably too early to expect real price points.

Goblinworks Blog wrote:


Some players will opt to have a recurring monthly subscription. Subscribers will have a predefined package of benefits that will remain available as long as their subscriptions are paid, without needing to buy and spend Skymetal Bits for those benefits. If they choose to stop their subscription payments, they can still buy Skymetal Bits to continue to apply those benefits. In general, though, the subscription price will be lower than the price of the Skymetal Bits you'd need to acquire all of the things that subscribers get, so if you want a lot of those benefits, you'll likely want to subscribe.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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BlackUhuru wrote:
What benefit will a sub be for an advanced player that can always buy training with coin?

Subscriber benefits will include more than just training time, but we haven't been more specific regarding what those things are yet.

Goblin Squad Member

BlackUhuru wrote:


One thing I've noticed is that once players have established characters that own settlements or kingdoms, and controll large sums of coin could essentially play for free by buy unlimited amounts of training time. So what happens is beginning players pay subs and advanced players don't?

What benefit will a sub be for an advanced player that can always buy training with coin?

Well realistically if less people are buying training time to sell, the coin value of training time will go up, when the price of training time goes up, more advanced players will find it more worth the cost to purchase extra to resell thus driving the price back down until it stabilizes. Economics FTW.

Goblin Squad Member

Vic Wertz wrote:
BlackUhuru wrote:
What benefit will a sub be for an advanced player that can always buy training with coin?
Subscriber benefits will include more than just training time, but we haven't been more specific regarding what those things are yet.

Sounds good Vic I'm sure the benefits will be well worth the sub. With this system that is really my only worry, otherwise I think it's great.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd like more info on what they mean by skill packages. Are these requisite items you need to have to start training in a skill? Do they allow you to get better at a skill (i.e. allow a week of training time?) Maybe they're what you need to get to break certain thresholds in your skill. Like you can get to joirneyman level on your own, then you need one package to get to master level, then another to get to grandmaster level.


My friends and I lost all hope the moment micro-transaction was mentioned. Sadly it looks like we're going to pass on this game.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Delbin, as I understand it, Skill Training Packages will consist of a set amount of time that can be "spent" training skills. Subscribers will automatically get a month-long STP every month. Without STPs, you can still play, but you won't advance any skills.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
You'll use Skymetal Bits to purchase... having multiple characters

I'm reading that to mean that when we activate our user account, we'll have access to (at least) one character, and can purchase the right to create additional characters.

If I want to advance two characters simultaneously (and I do!), it sounds like I might need to purchase an additional character slot. Then I'll either need to pay two subscriptions, or at least buy Skill Training Packages for my second character.

Will I be able to log in both characters at the same time?

The reason I ask is because, in another thread, I asked GW to please never punish a player for choosing to use a single account rather than multiple accounts, and Ryan's response was "You'll be happy". I just want to make sure that this particular point has been considered, and that I'll still be happy :)

Goblin Squad Member

Keal wrote:
My friends and I lost all hope the moment micro-transaction was mentioned. Sadly it looks like we're going to pass on this game.

I understand your concern about the MT but I'm not sure you fully understand it's purpose. The only game you can compare PFO to regarding MT would be EVE Online.

So I ask you "have you ever played EVE"?


Blog wrote:
Supply and demand create pricing signals. Scarcity affects price. Distance affects price. The complexity of the value chain that is required to complete and deliver a finished good affects price. And the accumulation of wealth allows the purchase of high–impact in–game benefits. Virtual economies tend to reduce operating margins to razor–thin slices very quickly, meaning that the only way to make significant profit is to operate at tremendous scale. This rewards groups of people who can coordinate their actions effectively over long periods of time and over substantial in–game distances. Markets change in response to local needs, and finding a place where one can extract arbitrage can be a very lucrative venture—at least, until others find it too, and the market self–corrects through competition.

Pathfinder's take on sandbox economics sounds interesting, and very much like Eve, at first glance. Perhaps too much like Eve in the sense of the speed and miraculous availability of information the description implies to me. I don't think an instant information economy that happens through seemingly networked and computerized auctions, in which all goods, prices, terms and locations are visible, is true to a Fantasy genre. I believe there should be a relatively simple market chock with hurdles and disruption, resources that vary by quality within region, crafted goods that vary by quality...and fatter or at least more slowly correcting margins.

I'd tread carefully when imagining contracts, derivatives, options, etc. I would think these, if they exist, should not be handled through a traditional mmo auction house or vendor ui. We need a ui with pen and paper, bulletin boards, etc.

A word of mouth (and highly localized or individual shop) economy may not translate well to MMO play for non merchant players, but it does create an elaborate and player-driven in-between-the-seams merchant and transport class. I hope we don't miss out on that.

I'll reserve judgement for a bit, but I believe arbitrage in Fantasy should be more about quality and scarcity than weighing travel costs over distance. How can I know about prices and goods in Far Far Away unless a player character tells me, I read a paper on a town wall, or I get on my mule and check it out myself? That takes time.

I'd agree and want an economy to move toward equal pricing, but if all resources and merchant goods are of the same quality and that "self-correction" is instantaneous, then we are playing Eve again, no?

Goblin Squad Member

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Keal wrote:
My friends and I lost all hope the moment micro-transaction was mentioned. Sadly it looks like we're going to pass on this game.

1. Micro-Transactions where mentioned a while ago.

2. There is a money barrier to get in. It should be impossible to play for free until you have a high enough coin income to buy skill training time. For this reason you won't find the same free-to-play immature crowd.

Goblin Squad Member

I understand that players can buy skill training time, I'm not sure if that answers my question, so I'll ask it as a hypothetical:

Player A is one of the lucky players that joins the game at launch. She faithfully subscribes and one year after launch has accumulated and spent 12 months of skill training time.

Player B is slow to jump on the bandwagon, and he joins the game in the fourth month, so one year after launch he's accumulated and used ~9 months of skill training time. Can he ever buy *and use* skill training time to close that gap between his character and Player A's character?

Goblin Squad Member

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Urman wrote:

I understand that players can buy skill training time, I'm not sure if that answers my question, so I'll ask it as a hypothetical:

Player A is one of the lucky players that joins the game at launch. She faithfully subscribes and one year after launch has accumulated and spent 12 months of skill training time.

Player B is slow to jump on the bandwagon, and he joins the game in the fourth month, so one year after launch he's accumulated and used ~9 months of skill training time. Can he ever buy *and use* skill training time to close that gap between his character and Player A's character?

No...

Goblin Squad Member

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In no way can you buy anything to increase the speed of your skill leveling.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

I understand that players can buy skill training time, I'm not sure if that answers my question, so I'll ask it as a hypothetical:

Player A is one of the lucky players that joins the game at launch. She faithfully subscribes and one year after launch has accumulated and spent 12 months of skill training time.

Player B is slow to jump on the bandwagon, and he joins the game in the fourth month, so one year after launch he's accumulated and used ~9 months of skill training time. Can he ever buy *and use* skill training time to close that gap between his character and Player A's character?

No that isn't the intent of any of it. However considering the comments on the lower significance of leveling etc... (Vics quote on a 10th level being less versatile, but not significantly less powerful then a 30th level character), there should be no reason why you couldn't still play together. This isn't a theme park game where major areas are going to be walled off, and that characters hang out in areas where the enemies are all of their own level and type, at least the jist I get is players who have been playing 3 months, and ones who have been playing 3 years, will be standing side by side for the majority of content in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Ya, it's pretty clear from previous blog entries that 3 months of difference won't result in a huge disparity of characters.

I'm totally fine with no character ever able to use more skill training time than the first subscribers. I'm curious why a late joiner shouldn't be able to match them. At first glance, I don't see how it adversely affects the game, especially when offline skill training merely unlocks options within the game.

Encouraging early joining might be reason enough, get and keep subscribers from the beginning.

Goblinworks Founder

Urman wrote:

I understand that players can buy skill training time, I'm not sure if that answers my question, so I'll ask it as a hypothetical:

Player A is one of the lucky players that joins the game at launch. She faithfully subscribes and one year after launch has accumulated and spent 12 months of skill training time.

Player B is slow to jump on the bandwagon, and he joins the game in the fourth month, so one year after launch he's accumulated and used ~9 months of skill training time. Can he ever buy *and use* skill training time to close that gap between his character and Player A's character?

No and I don't see a reason to allow that either. Player A has at least put the extra time in of playing and should be rewarded by have a slight edge over player B.

Goblinworks Founder

Urman wrote:

Ya, it's pretty clear from previous blog entries that 3 months of difference won't result in a huge disparity of characters.

I'm totally fine with no character ever able to use more skill training time than the first subscribers. I'm curious why a late joiner shouldn't be able to match them. At first glance, I don't see how it adversely affects the game, especially when offline skill training merely unlocks options within the game.

Encouraging early joining might be reason enough, get and keep subscribers from the beginning.

Well in a pure PvP world late joiners might have some disadvantage, which would be good to find a guild to join to help you out or friends to group with. That might be the thing to turn off some players where 'bullies' exist and take advantage of their longer play time.

Then again in a game like Darkfall age and skill level doesn't mean to much at times. I've seen a player (two months old) take on two veterans and win just by knowing how to move and use the skills he has.

Goblin Squad Member

Skeptical abvout the "plex" system but if you say it works well in Eve then I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

One suggestion, could we call it the Skymetal Mall? Instead of store.

Goblin Squad Member

Megatroid wrote:
How can I know about prices and goods in Far Far Away unless a player character tells me, I read a paper on a town wall, or I get on my mule and check it out myself?

How about your network of contacts? This would be abstracted into your localized Knowledge(Markets) skill.


Nihimon wrote:
Megatroid wrote:
How can I know about prices and goods in Far Far Away unless a player character tells me, I read a paper on a town wall, or I get on my mule and check it out myself?

How about your network of contacts? This would be abstracted into your localized Knowledge(Markets) skill.

How about I abstract you into a bowl of ice cream and eat your face?

J/K but I had hoped I'd actually be interacting with people.

Goblin Squad Member

As far as all the questions about whether it's cheaper to subscribe or pay to play, I'd guess most likely similar to what all other MMOs have experienced: it depends on 1) how often you want to play, 2) how many characters you want, and 3) how easy do you want it to be to get mediocre or glamor equipment.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I expect the monthly subscription will fall into the $15-$20 USD/month range. That's industry standard, and also within most gamer's expectation and budget.

I'm most intrigued by the hints that the faucet and drain will by dynamically adjusted (hopefully manually rather than automatically...)

My conclusion is that things will cost exactly what the DMs want them to, and income and expenses will vary over time to make sure that happens.

In other news: Any word on whether EVE-style insurance will be present? For the uninitiated, EVE insurance pays the owner/pilot of a destroyed spaceship an amount of money. The spaceship itself is made with materials, not money, but money is used as the medium of exchange to purchase the ship; since the builder still has all of the money used to buy the ship, the net result of buying a ship for cash and getting blown up is a small loss (in cash) to the buyer, a small gain (in salvage) to the killer, and a transfer from materials to cash for the manufacturer.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:


In other news: Any word on whether EVE-style insurance will be present? For the uninitiated, EVE insurance pays the owner/pilot of a destroyed spaceship an amount of money. The spaceship itself is made with materials, not money, but money is used as the medium of exchange to purchase the ship; since the builder still has all of the money used to buy the ship, the net result of buying a ship for cash and getting blown up is a small loss (in cash) to the buyer, a small gain (in salvage) to the killer, and a transfer from materials to cash for the manufacturer.

Well the mystery in that is, what is the ship in this analogy? A players equipment so far does not sound like it will be lost on death, which is what would generally be viewed as the ship.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Onishi wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:


In other news: Any word on whether EVE-style insurance will be present? For the uninitiated, EVE insurance pays the owner/pilot of a destroyed spaceship an amount of money. The spaceship itself is made with materials, not money, but money is used as the medium of exchange to purchase the ship; since the builder still has all of the money used to buy the ship, the net result of buying a ship for cash and getting blown up is a small loss (in cash) to the buyer, a small gain (in salvage) to the killer, and a transfer from materials to cash for the manufacturer.
Well the mystery in that is, what is the ship in this analogy? A players equipment so far does not sound like it will be lost on death, which is what would generally be viewed as the ship.

I would base it on the carried items... perhaps key the payout to a fraction of the 'market value' of the carried items destroyed during looting.

Goblin Squad Member

In EvE, losing an early ship was a good way to turn people off of the game. It's a pain in the ass if you just get a new 30mill ship and lose it in a few hours. Insurance helps, but not all the time, if you don't get all the money back, or forget to insure, or can't afford to insure, everything is gone and you either get pissed and stop playing, or get pissed and grind cash.

Any significant loss upon death that sets your general 'power level' back will lose a good chunk of subscriptions.

GW is doing it right, when you die you drop your inventory, everything else stays with you, your character isn't set back to any great extent.

If there is insurance, I would imagine it would be a player organization, that takes money from you every month, and never gives you enough to have what you really need.

Goblin Squad Member

Or the "ship" in PFO will be buildings. Maybe we will be able to insure are structures so if and when they are destroyed the insurance will lesson the blow a bit?

Grand Lodge Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2015

So when you get the necessary experience to level up, you need to pay an in-game NPC association in order to advance to the next level? Thus creating a money drain?
So it's not a case that you can't level up unless you've bought 'skill training time'?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

KestlerGunner wrote:

So when you get the necessary experience to level up, you need to pay an in-game NPC association in order to advance to the next level? Thus creating a money drain?

So it's not a case that you can't level up unless you've bought 'skill training time'?

The answers you want are found on this blog post.

Skill training is not a coin drain in any sense, and is included at the maximum rate for all subscribers.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Skill training is not a coin drain in any sense, and is included at the maximum rate for all subscribers.

For the record, all skill training will occur at the same rate. There will not be any way to speed up skill training. All you can do is buy more of it to extend the amount of time a single character can train, or to allow more than one character to train simultaneously.

Goblin Squad Member

very good calls (again), GW!

A lot of the comments here seem to be from a pure player perspective. If GW cannot make money off the game, there won't be a game!
Thus the design is all about finding win-win situations for GW and the different types of players.
GW need good total income, low maintenance and some predicatbility. Free players are a feature of the game to make the experience better for the paying ones, but commercial success requires players spending money.

The design revealed now is a good attempt to make win-win-win situations:

-player A can farm coins for training packages, spending (plentiful) time to make up for limited cash.
-player B can buy skymetal training packages, spending (plentiful) cash to make up for limited time. Since skills require real-time, the transfer of funds alllows B to roughly keep up with A in power level
-player C with both cash and time is going to 'win' the power race regardless of system, but benefits from having both A and B around to play (and chat) with.
If player C becomes powerful enough to easily buy all training in-game, that hurts the A's but benefits the B's and is not necessarily so bad thing for GW.

= player A benefits from lots of B's. Player B benefits from lots of A's. All players benefit from a big community and a healthy game developer.
= GW makes more revenue with player A in the game than without - it just happens that that extra revenue comes from player B.

(player D with neither cash nor time is not playing anyway, so is irrelevant).

arguments like "i want to play for free, but i dont want those paying to have any advantage over me" are not helpful in this context.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Kalmyel Stedwethren wrote:
...so you can buy skill training with real-world cash now.

You can buy skill training time.

RyanD

Just as a pedantic, you guys may want to rethink the nomenclature on that...(IMO) it's very confusing. I was thinking the same thing Kalmyel did until I read Onishi's post here in the forum explaining it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Megatroid wrote:


Pathfinder's take on sandbox economics sounds interesting, and very much like Eve, at first glance. Perhaps too much like Eve in the sense of the speed and miraculous availability of information the description implies to me.

Information will propagate instantly, whether it is done in-game or out-of-game. It's trivially easy to ensure that you have up-to-the-second pricing and availability info anywhere that you care about by using alts.

So rather than put players who don't understand that at a disadvantage, we'll just provide those tools to everyone automatically.

RyanD

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