Polymorph into a large rat?

[Vestrial]

When polymorphing (via poly, beast shape, etc), do you have to assume the standard size of a creature, or can you shift into an animal of any size the spell you're using will allow?

[Starglim]

Beast Shape II wrote:

This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:

It could be argued, and in some ways would simplify matters, that the spell doesn't, as written, require you to assume the form of a specific animal that actually exists in the game. You decide to take the form of a Large animal that has climb 60 feet, swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, scent, pounce and trip. Further, it has a bite, two claws and a tail attack that do standard damage for those attack forms at its size. Its land speed is 60 feet, which the GM agrees is within reason for a Large animal. It can't fly or wing-buffet - no need to abuse the system. You call this form a "large rat". Done.

If this seems unpalatable, then you must assume the form of a specific animal. If you have to ask your GM whether Large-size rats exist, I suggest your character is not sufficiently familiar with the animal to turn into one.

[Vestrial]

Starglim wrote:

Beast Shape II wrote:

This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability:

It could be argued, and in some ways would simplify matters, that the spell doesn't, as written, require you to assume the form of a specific animal that actually exists in the game. You decide to take the form of a Large animal that has climb 60 feet, swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, scent, pounce and trip. Further, it has a bite, two claws and a tail attack that do standard damage for those attack forms at its size. Its land speed is 60 feet, which the GM agrees is within reason for a Large animal. It can't fly or wing-buffet - no need to abuse the system. You call this form a "large rat". Done.

If this seems unpalatable, then you must assume the form of a specific animal. If you have to ask your GM whether Large-size rats exist, I suggest your character is not sufficiently familiar with the animal to turn into one.

I like your first idea, and think that's probably how they should have designed the spell. Something like, 'Chose two of the following: Pounce, grab, etc, etc...' But just allowing you to pick whatever you want is obviously a bit too open.

I don't think those are the only two options though. As a GM I've decided my players can assume the form of any animal the spell will allow based on size, but they can resize it as they wish within the bounds of the spell. So beast shape 2 allows tiny or large creatures, so the caster can assume any of those forms, in any size ranging from tiny to large.

Seems to me it's just too limited otherwise. The only huge animals in the game are aquatic or dinosaurs, and the only diminutive animals are familiars...

[HaraldKlak]

I really don't like the idea of cherry-picking abilities when wildshaping. The animal choices have got enough of this as it is.

However resizing (within reasonable limits anyway) existing animals isn't a problem as far as I see it. It becomes a bit silly, if a druid has a large wolf animal companion, but cannot turn into a large wolf himself.

[cartmanbeck]

Technically, according to the rules, changing the base size of a creature is equivalent to adding a template (either the Young or Advanced template) which is not allowed for wild-shaping.

In a home game, I would absolutely allow it as long as the druid has the ability to wild shape into the correct sized creature, but RAW it's not allowed.

[HaraldKlak]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Technically, according to the rules, changing the base size of a creature is equivalent to adding a template (either the Young or Advanced template) which is not allowed for wild-shaping.

In a home game, I would absolutely allow it as long as the druid has the ability to wild shape into the correct sized creature, but RAW it's not allowed.

However, advancing an existing animal by HD would normally make it increase in size. As such, one could argue that untemplated larger versions exist.

[Jeff Clem]

Where were you guys when I posted the same question lol. Everyone that post answered said that you couldn't resize and had to use the what ever was in the beasty books. lol I like your answers better lol.

[Vestrial]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Technically, according to the rules, changing the base size of a creature is equivalent to adding a template (either the Young or Advanced template) which is not allowed for wild-shaping.

In a home game, I would absolutely allow it as long as the druid has the ability to wild shape into the correct sized creature, but RAW it's not allowed.

Where does it discuss changing size equates to adding a template?

And would that mean druid companions and familiars are templated creatures? Both of which have non-standard size examples of various animals...