Personally, I wonder why the class exists at all.I do too, at least its current incarnation.
On the Maiden, it's mostly Protection from Arrows and Earthquake. Wish, I can kind of see, but it is so open-ended a spell, and part of me keeps wanting to assign it to something more characteristic of experience and power than the Maiden (though the Matron fits well with Resurrection already and the Crone currently has too decrepit a feel).
Earthquake is there because I wanted spells that showcased the "vigor" of the natural cycles, and because I didn't feel any of the options for its spell level contributed as well to "rounding out" the Maiden's overall toolkit. Protection From Arrows is a bit complex, and perhaps somewhat sophomoric, but the general idea was sort of a "confidence of youth" allowing her to shrug off the random "slings and arrows of fate" rather than being caught up in morose brooding. Painting her as an optimistic, bright and spunky foil to the Crone's gloom. Also, it helps a lot to establish the Maiden as a very durable Patron given the specific protective buffs she offers. Wish may make the Maiden perhaps a touch too powerful when compared to the Crone, but I see little reason to not move Wish over to the Crone's portfolio if desired ("wishing for more time" or the regretful "wish for a different past") -- you'd have a real problem finding a better 9th level spell to replace it on the Maiden's list, though.
On the Healing Hex, there is the minor utility of being able to use both Minor and then Major hex on every subject, instead of having it auto-scale as a single application.
If you consider it a bit too frequently used in your campaigns already, then this change should be welcome?
When comparing to Craft Wands, there is the issue of taking the downtime to gather the materials and then actually do the crafting, and a small gain in utility for having Hexes always be available, regardless of whether you've rested or lost all of your gear.
This is because Craft Wand is altogether the more powerful, the more flexible ability when in-use. Hexes are, by comparison, ultra-specialized, so they definitely should have the benefit of being "always with you", as it were, and without gold cost.
On the [Transition] idea, it was dependent on making better versions of the Minor hexes. Not all of them, just the ones for which it seemed appropriate (like Flight or Healing). It seemed like you already had plenty of ideas on how to scale the power of many of them up to the level range appropriate for a Major and Grand hex level. It seems like it would be simple to take some of your recommendations and convert them into the appropriate level of Hex.
I tend to think overall that the Hexes should each be able to scale to remain relevant into the end game. I suppose this means that I'm not fond of the premise of your [Transition] mechanic, even aside from my objections about its ambiguous wording and complicated-ness.
I'm not likely to respond again, though. You may not have intended to come off as hostile, but I'm not invested enough in the discussion to take collateral flak over it.
A highly technical discussion over the interbutt is no place for fragile egos.
Now that I've had time to call my head. I would to withdraw many of the things I've said if aunt tony can list for me at least six good things about the witch class. Then I will be satisfied and withdraw any negative statements I've made earlier.
My my, we are on a high horse, aren't we? This is nothing more than an "I double dog dare you". And the benefit to me? You'll withdraw whatever oh-so-damaging statements you've made? How about I give you six reasons I'm interested in the problems to be solved, and you can be a good boy and not clutter my thread with pointless whining from that absurd posture of self-righteous authority. Unless you can give me six reasons why I should give you the respect you won't show me -- and better make them good ones, too, because I simply don't like you.
1. The concept of a spellcaster with something "magical" to do even when spells run out is a solid one, and has long been understood as a potential solution to the "15-minute workday" problem.
2. And this has the benefit of alleviating the frustrations which Vancian Casting almost always causes.
3. Being unsatisfied with how bloated, powerful and generic the D&D Wizard is, I am more than pleased to see the introduction of "full casters" who are intended to be just as satisfying and yet --
4. More specialized, more intensely thematic and mechanically unique in the history of the 3.X framework.
5. Having a balanced and satisfying Witch class will improve the game of Pathfinder for everyone.
6. I enjoy the pure, well, intellectual challenge of having a problem to solve and engaging in the process of sorting through feedback while solving the problem in order to achieve a satisfying solution.
your tone to many of the other people who posts is to shoot them down when they say anything positive about the witch.
I tend to not enjoy fools. The latter assertion you make is untrue on the face of it -- and I have myself have had very good things to say about the Witch, though I really don't know what basis you have for taking criticism of the class as if it were some sort of personal offense. When posters earn mockery, I believe people should get what they deserve.
So far, the posts I have responded to with any sort of derision have been the ones with the most stupid of things to say. It is not my fault, by the way, if some people don't seem to grasp why their reasoning is flawed. That is, if there's something "nice" to say about the Witch, you'd better be able to give a valid reason for it being left alone.
Hint: "stop not liking what I like" is not a valid reason to not do work.
1.stop posting about how much you hate the class and how it is flawed.
No.
2.make witches illegal in your gaming group.
Also no. And you have a real problem. What I do with my friends is no concern of yours. How dare you?
3.turn all witches into sorcerer's (possible bloodline being Accursed) or wizards.
I do already recommend this to everyone I see asking for advice about creating "witch" characters.
4.shut down or stop looking at this thread so others can chime in about their positives and productive critiques about this class so that we can all produce answers for our problems because right now all your doing is complaining and not putting out any productive responses to solve the problems you and others are facing.
Make your own thread. This is my thread. It is about my topic. I am leading the efforts to do work here -- that makes you an interloping, unproductive troll.
If you had read the thread, you would know that I have in fact posted a rather great deal of very specific, highly detailed possible solutions for each problem I have claimed -- and then some for others'.
Rant done. Transmission end.
Would that you would.
I give respect to those who give respect to others, just as much as i give problems to those who don't give others the respect they deserve. you berate the witch class believing that by complaining all the time you will get what you want. You're wrong.
what's done is done and set in stone. I try to make amends and you spit me in the face and say I'm on a high horse. well I have no horse, I ain't rich, I have no power or commanding ability beyond the humble skills I have.
Through my experience of dealing with people like you its that they expect everything in life to go their way. You're wrong. in life one goes through a series of hardships and trials in order to gain wisdom and knowledge. you seem to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth and treat others like your the king of the world.
your judgement of fools and stupidity shows that you suffer the worst form of idiocy of all, arrogance and pride. so get down from your throne Karzoug. the Heroes of this messageboard will not tolerate your behavior!
cause sometimes its the stupid things in life, the risks we take that get the most benefit not just to ourselves but to thousands of others.
you berate the witch class believing that by complaining all the time you will get what you want. You're wrong.
How does one berate a concept, an idea, some text on a page? The Witch class is not a person. It isn't you personally, either.
I don't need to "get something I want" from the forums. I'm sharing ideas (god forbid!!).
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Since you can't or won't, then you're cluttering up my thread just to -- what was the word? Berate me. I am a person.
I resent, acutely, that I haven't the power to clean up my own thread, and I resent that you, and others, are exploiting this in order to flood the thread with stupid, unproductive, uninspired troll posts and flames.
you seem to be born with a silver spoon in your mouth and treat others like your the king of the world.
The term for this is "projecting".
If you want suggestion for your home game phrasing your opening post in that manner would have made things go smoother. I am not blaming you, but the way you word things matters a lot here.I guess I should somehow be a bit more obvious with the fact that I'm not one of Paizo's employees, a developer, a publisher or anyone, really, who has any say at all about the official rules as published or in future errata...? And you really did blame me even if you say you aren't.
I know you don't work for Paizo. I was not suggesting that. You came in here as if your statement was absolute truth, and that you wanted to change the class for everyone, not just your games. Naturally those that like the class as is will defend it, even if you say "this is not a debate" or something similar.
Something along the lines of "The witch does not work for me because....What do you think about this?" would have worked better.
I know you don't work for Paizo. I was not suggesting that. You came in here as if your statement was absolute truth, and that you wanted to change the class for everyone, not just your games.
Something along the lines of "The witch does not work for me because....What do you think about this?" would have worked better.
I tend to think it's pretty rude to insult the intelligence of all readers by going out of the way to state the obvious. As a subjective point of view, which I am (we each of us are), it's redundant, to put it mildly, to declare what I am saying is an opinion (my own). It's weak style. Similar to interjecting "like, um" in between every word.
I confess to feeling a bit embarrassed for you that you seem to need me to remind you that I'm giving an opinion when I... give an opinion... Judging by the loudest reactions here, I'd guess that a large fraction of these forums don't have much experience with communication beyond facebook likes.
No need to wonder why the quality of college grads has been dropping.
Naturally those that like the class as is will defend it, even if you say "this is not a debate" or something similar.
Shouting "I don't want you to provide free, entirely optional, well constructed ideas" is not "defending" the Witch class. It's just being an ass.
How does one berate a concept, an idea, some text on a page?
Politicians do it every day in Washington over the constitution and I felt you were doing the same except also taking the concept and crushing in the dirt like it was nothing. many members of Paizo staff worked hard to make that class and I felt you gave it no room to present any good qualities it has.
The Witch class is not a person. It isn't you personally, either.
I know this, but it is still the work of good people and I don't like to see criticism that doesn't produce benefits to the creators.
I don't need to "get something I want" from the forums. I'm sharing ideas (god forbid!!).
Yes you're sharing, but your are also not accepting others ideas if they go against what you think. you simply call it stupid.
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Since you can't or won't, then you're cluttering up my thread just to -- what was the word? Berate me. I am a person.
I know you are but you are berating other people too. And I don't like that.
I resent, acutely, that I haven't the power to clean up my own thread, and I resent that you, and others, are exploiting this in order to flood the thread with stupid, unproductive, uninspired troll posts and flames.
one man's trash is another man's treasure. Plus there is no exploitation here, just simply stating the facts that people out there like the class and you don't give them the chance to say why. you just call them stupid and don't ask for clarification. Also these threads are not yours to command, they are the property of Paizo and they use and clean these forums as they see fit. the forums are meant to be places where people share ideas and critique them. so if you don't like other people arguing with you then why did you post in the first place.
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Judging by the loudest reactions here, I'd guess that a large fraction of these forums don't have much experience with communication beyond facebook likes.
No need to wonder why the quality of college grads has been dropping.
I ain't finished no college but son, there be some high horse you be ridin'.
I tend to think it's pretty rude to insult the intelligence of all readers by going out of the way to state the obvious. As a subjective point of view, which I am (we each of us are), it's redundant, to put it mildly, to declare what I am saying is an opinion (my own). It's weak style. Similar to interjecting "like, um" in between every word.
he is stating it because you don't seem to see it yourself and ridicule others for trying to help remind you of it so we could bring forth some sort of benefit from this forum.
I confess to feeling a bit embarrassed for you that you seem to need me to remind you that I'm giving an opinion when I... give an opinion... Judging by the loudest reactions here, I'd guess that a large fraction of these forums don't have much experience with communication beyond facebook likes.
we have experience but you are the one while intending to be a member are acting like a troll and dissing everyone who say that they see things differently on the issue.
No need to wonder why the quality of college grads has been dropping.
because people like you are running them and not giving proper help and critique to their students while supporting the strengths they have in their work.
Shouting "I don't want you to provide free, entirely optional, well constructed ideas" is not "defending" the Witch class. It's just being an ass.
no one is saying that. what is being said is that you don't give any good points about the class and completely diss it when their are people out there who like the class and play it well.
Role-playing is not just game mechanics, but is also storytelling. if you have the gamemastery guide you would notice it deals mostly with the way in which DM's make the game story fun and entertaining to play. its a game of chance and fate, a game where people come together to shed their skin, take on a new identity and have fun. sure a few classes have a lack of luster, but the flaws make game play so much more entertaining. you have to keep track of the minutes so your flight ability doesn't run out on you. and whenever a group member makes a mistake, you laugh about it and move on. what makes a character interesting is not the strengths they have but the weaknesses they struggle with to defeat the enemy and win the adventure.
by the way I'm not on a horse, I'm in a chair at my desk in the honors house at my college with a 3.5 GPA and a constructive and academically supportive atmosphere. we are all human and we make mistakes, but the only inhuman among us are the heartless. please ask others for their reasons, expand your understanding, if we had more people like that this world would be a much better place and so would these forums.
oh and to be precise on who owns what here's a quote.
Who owns my comments?
While Paizo Publishing does not pre-screen message content, Paizo Publishing does reserve the right to edit or remove submitted messages or material at any time. Paizo Publishing is not responsible for the content of messages submitted by users of the site. Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Publishing the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media.
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I know you don't work for Paizo. I was not suggesting that. You came in here as if your statement was absolute truth, and that you wanted to change the class for everyone, not just your games.
Something along the lines of "The witch does not work for me because....What do you think about this?" would have worked better.
I tend to think it's pretty rude to insult the intelligence of all readers by going out of the way to state the obvious. As a subjective point of view, which I am (we each of us are), it's redundant, to put it mildly, to declare what I am saying is an opinion (my own). It's weak style. Similar to interjecting "like, um" in between every word.
I confess to feeling a bit embarrassed for you that you seem to need me to remind you that I'm giving an opinion when I... give an opinion... Judging by the loudest reactions here, I'd guess that a large fraction of these forums don't have much experience with communication beyond facebook likes.
No need to wonder why the quality of college grads has been dropping.
You told me you were not a Paizo employee. I only replied that I already knew that. How is that rude?
By the way, many people here state their opinions as facts so until I see you post more I see no reason to not put you in that category when you state your opinion in such a way that you make it seem like a fact.
#no free handouts.
PS:That bolded area is why you don't need to be embarrassed for me. Is there anything you need to know about why I said what I said, or will you just make more baseless assumptions? Had you asked me, I would have willing told you why I read your comments the way I did, and this conversation could have been more civil.
I wonder if Tony(you) will be a jerk again, or be civil. I am not betting on you being civil, but I have been wrong before.
edit:and judging by your attitude and last post I seem to be have been correct when thinking you did not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
many members of Paizo staff worked hard to make that class
No, they very obviously did not.
and I felt you gave it no room to present any good qualities it has.
Feelings are not what this thread is about.
I know this, but it is still the work of good people and I don't like to see criticism that doesn't produce benefits to the creators.
I think mindless, vague worship of a segment of the game is the very least helpful feedback any artist has to endure. Game designers must accept in-depth critique just as any artist does, and Paizo will fail horribly without exactly the sort of clear, concise and detailed feedback I have provided (and for free, no less!). Your feelings didn't have a right to be hurt here until after I told you exactly how you were behaving, and then you deserved it. Hopefully the feedback will guide your future responses.
Yes you're sharing, but your are also not accepting others ideas if they go against what you think. you simply call it stupid.
Actually, if you would read the thread, I have accepted and gratefully engaged with all substantiated ideas as contribution -- for such they are. Note the emphasis on the word there. Screeching about how you don't want me to change "your class" (as if I could!) is not contributing, and I gave such posts more response than they merited. The posts I don't appreciate would be this sort of pointless trolling, bickering and whining. I don't need drama queens and divas to invade my thread -- this thread is not about feelings.
This thread is about exchanging ideas about how to make the Witch class better. The term "better" here is not indicative in any way of a desire to destroy, rebuild, overpower, pervert or whatever other verb -- the Witch. The thread is not about why you don't think any work should be done on the class. It's not about your opinion of the Witch's power level. It's not about misplaced delicate feelings.
If you don't think anything needs to be done for the Witch -- then continue playing as you have and stay out of my thread.
I know you are but you are berating other people too. And I don't like that.
I might advise you accept that bad behavior has consequences. Namely, that other people won't necessarily appreciate repeated, childish attempts to derail and destroy a conversation.
You. You personally. And others of course. Have been exceedingly rude here, and you've been given a great deal of patience if by no other mechanism than my powerlessness to remove the polluting posts.
one man's trash is another man's treasure. Plus there is no exploitation here, just simply stating the facts that people out there like the class and you don't give them the chance to say why.
Why couldn't anyone give any better an explanation than just "I like the Witch like she is!"? And why would that even be a reason to not improve the Witch? And how am I at all preventing people from posting whatever they like -- most especially detailed and valid ideas about the Witch? Considering how much off-topic crap has already polluted the thread, and the source, it is very clear that I am not the impediment to the discussion here.
you just call them stupid and don't ask for clarification.
It's not my responsibility to make sure someone else doesn't seem a fool. By the way, there's a difference between a stupid idea and a stupid person. Subtle, I know, but a distinction nonetheless.
Also these threads are not yours to command, they are the property of Paizo and they use and clean these forums as they see fit.
Hopefully sooner than later. Still doesn't mean you aren't being outrageously rude by s&+%ting in my thread like this.
the forums are meant to be places where people share ideas and critique them.
By all means. Let's hear your critique.
Hint: "I don't want you to change the Witch!" is not a critique, even if I were threatening to change how the Witch is published, an act I am very obviously not capable of. And even if the Witch were changed by official errata, there is still nothing compelling you to play the Witch in any way but the way you wish to.
so if you don't like other people arguing with you then why did you post in the first place.
Those who are actually engaged in argument, I have engaged very productively and pleasantly with.
Do the math, do your homework, it's sad but true. If you've been actually casting healing spells while playing divine characters... oh boy. There can be no help for you.
.
Golly, mister! Thanks for telling us we've all been playing wrong!
In case you're wondering why some are taking issue with your posts, this is a good example of how your "I know the one true way" tone is extremely off-putting.
You also seem to think it's all about optimization. Finally, opinion does not equal "universal truth".
You told me you were not a Paizo employee. I only replied that I already knew that. How is that rude?
I think you misunderstood, I phrased it ambiguously -- I meant that I didn't want to be rude by reminding everyone in print that I'm not in any way affiliated with Paizo.
By the way, many people here state their opinions as facts so until I see you post more I see no reason to not put you in that category when you state your opinion in such a way that you make it seem like a fact.
Maybe a lesson could learned here about judging ideas based on their merits rather than tone, and providing valid responses to arguments rather than cultivating contrarianism.
#no free handouts.
By my count, you all owe me, then, for the contribution I've made to the dialogue which undergirds the Witch's game design. =P
PS:That bolded area is why you don't need to be embarrassed for me. Is there anything you need to know about why I said what I said, or will you just make more baseless assumptions? Had you asked me, I would have willing told you why I read your comments the way I did, and this conversation could have been more civil.
As far as I'm aware, I've been rather placid toward you. Why, have you been upset? Do I need to scatter smiley faces throughout my posts in order to not be assaulted?
I wonder if Tony(you) will be a jerk again, or be civil. I am not betting on you being civil, but I have been wrong before.
I'm not sure I'm in any control of your definitions of "civility", so I most certainly won't be betting on it.
edit:and judging by your attitude and last post I seem to be have been correct when thinking you did not deserve the benefit...
I do hope you've only been considering my responses to you personally. Would be a bit of a [i]faux pas[i] to butt in and take offense at someone else's well-earned response.
Role-playing is not just game mechanics, but is also storytelling. if you have the gamemastery guide you would notice it deals mostly with the way in which DM's make the game story fun and entertaining to play. its a game of chance and fate, a game where people come together to shed their skin, take on a new identity and have fun. sure a few classes have a lack of luster, but the flaws make game play so much more entertaining. you have to keep track of the minutes so your flight ability doesn't run out on you. and whenever a group member makes a mistake, you laugh about it and move on. what makes a character interesting is not the strengths they have but the weaknesses they struggle with to defeat the enemy and win the adventure.
Are you saying that if all the classes were crippled, the game would be better?
Or are you admitting that the Witch is crippled and that it's part of why you personally enjoy the class as-written?
by the way I'm not on a horse, I'm in a chair at my desk
How clever.
in the honors house at my college with a 3.5 GPA
Hearsay, your honor.
and a constructive and academically supportive atmosphere.
Sounds delightful.
we are all human and we make mistakes,
One can only hope. Would be a rather miserable existence without the opportunity to learn.
but the only inhuman among us are the heartless.
A fairly dangerous idea. Ask Germany about that one. Nevertheless, you should be free to communicate your ideas, I suppose. Of course, that comes with its own responsibilities.
please ask others for their reasons, expand your understanding,
I have, and have been. I'll point you to the post wherein I acknowledged that Pox Pustules could be a useful tactic against the Verdurous Ooze. Alas, it seems the more common reaction to the potential to "expand understanding" is to complain that one's fragile ego is wounded.
if we had more people like that this world would be a much better place and so would these forums.
Couldn't agree more...
many members of Paizo staff worked hard to make that classNo, they very obviously did not.
Then you never had to deleope a game system before. they would all say the same thing, it takes a long time, it's difficult to produce, and they feel like what they created is something many other people they hope will enjoy.
Feelings are not what this thread is about.
no but like any other thread or forum, they come up anyway. besides you compared these messageboards to Facebook, the most emotionally run system of all.
I think mindless, vague worship of a segment of the game is the very least helpful feedback any artist has to endure. Game designers must accept in-depth critique just as any artist does, and Paizo will fail horribly without exactly the sort of clear, concise and detailed feedback I have provided (and for free, no less!). Your feelings didn't have a right to be hurt here until after I told you exactly how you were behaving, and then you deserved it. Hopefully the feedback will guide your future responses.
I Know they deserve feedback for their work no matter how harsh, but when people critique your critiques you seem to do a written version of flipping people off. plus, you think this is me being emotional, believe me if i was, all my posts would be heavily flagged for improper etiquette and abusive language right now.
Actually, if you would read the thread, I have accepted and gratefully engaged with all substantiated ideas as contribution -- for such they are. Note the emphasis on the word there. Screeching about how you don't want me to change "your class" (as if I could!) is not contributing, and I gave such posts more response than they merited. The posts I don't appreciate would be this sort of pointless trolling, bickering and whining. I don't need drama queens and divas to invade my thread -- this thread is not about feelings.
being human means having emotions, and many times having emotions in your opinions strengthens your message and promotes a logical AN EMPATHETIC response, which you seem to give none of in your responses. plus being emotional about something doesn't label you a drama queen unless the person is emotional all the time, and since you have only seen one response from the persons you call stupid, you automatically label them a drama queen or diva. shallow. plus you seem to give up more easily to ask about clarification then anyone i have ever met.
This thread is about exchanging ideas about how to make the Witch class better.
yes, but you shoot down any idea you don't like or find "Smart" as you seem to label only 1% of the population. a factor that will make you more enemies on these messageboards then friends due to your attitudes towards others.
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