Goblin Squad Member
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With all the discussions about alignment, I thought I'd bring up a fairly tame topic. I don't even know if it has been discussed on here or not.
So I ask here and now, will we have mounts? If so, will it be just horses? (which Im completely fine with) I think mounts would add another level of strategy to the war efforts. Just a random thought on a cold, wintery Saturday.
Again, if this has been discussed, please feel free to disregard this.
There was a recent discussion on this topic.
Personally, If we're talking about a means to traverse the world faster than run speed - I'd rather not see them in the game. For many reasons.
1) This is a skill based system. Mounts would likely require training - maybe even significant training if it's broken down into several ranks of speed/horse/etc. All players will likely feel forced into training mounts if it'll give an advantage in combat/warfare.
2) It shrinks the world. You can look at the most drastic example in WoW where flying mounts have made landscape completely trivial. Other Devs like Trion saw how much it ruined the game and decided they would never be a part in Rift. Obviously flying mounts are an extreme example, but even ground mounts have a similar effect. If you can blaze past mobs on the road and get from place to place in a short time, it trivializes the world.
3) Similar to point 1, it would ruin sieges because it would be quite hard to take advantage of a group of players who are out of position. I feel that if you can scout enemy positions then attack a defenseless or vulnerable spot, you should be rewarded for that. When traveling takes time, players are going to have to weigh the cost/benefit of that time investment.
Now as far as non-personal speed buffs go, I have no problem with mounts. As a pet or cargo solution I think they'd work fine. Something like a pack mule that walks along side you and hauls your goods from a mine to a town, or town to town.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) It shrinks the world. You can look at the most drastic example in WoW where flying mounts have made landscape completely trivial. Other Devs like Trion saw how much it ruined the game and decided they would never be a part in Rift. Obviously flying mounts are an extreme example, but even ground mounts have a similar effect. If you can blaze past mobs on the road and get from place to place in a short time, it trivializes the world.
3) Similar to point 1, it would ruin sieges because it would be quite hard to take advantage of a group of players who are out of position. I feel that if you can scout enemy positions then attack a defenseless or vulnerable spot, you should be rewarded for that. When traveling takes time, players are going to have to weigh the cost/benefit of that time investment.
I agree. PVP changes with mounts. Maybe you could use mounts on roads and paths but not take them into the wilderness or something like that. also how can you flee from someone who suddenly just whips up a horse from thin air? Although I would like see some horse chases and pursuits.
If they put mounts up as an option, there will be months in the game. People have gotten used to them in that other game. There was a brief thread up that had some options people could pick from, mounts was one of the choices. They ended up pulling the thread for a few reasons but months were far ahead of the other options, that's why I say they will be in the game if a choice is given.
Personally I would rather not have them for the same reasons Clynx pointed out. But I'm one vote among many.
I would however love to see mounted combat and the ability to joust, that would be cool.
I'd also like to add that perhaps you could find a middle ground to mounts. Rather than an all or nothing. FFXI had ground mounts you could ride. You could blaze past mobs and get through zones relatively quickly. However, you could only ride the mount for a limited time. I think the default was 20 minutes. After the time expired, you'd be kicked off and stranded to run the rest of the way on foot. On top of that, there was riding gear you could wear that would extend the time by a minute or so. So if you had say, 5 pieces of riding gear worn, you could last for 25 minutes instead of 20.
I like a system like this. It works well as it can't be used anywhere, any time, for any duration. At least, that's how it worked early on in that game. I'm not sure if/how that had been changed over the years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly not including mounts would really hurt the immersion for me. I am tired of my knights foot slogging like a common peasant From the sounds of things the world will be fairly large and will only get bigger with time. So we won't have to worry about blowing through the world too fast. I think it's wise not to judge potential features in PFO by how they have been implemented in other games.
Monk's landspeed will come in serious handy. Plus spells like Expeditious retreat. Not to mention teleport and teleport circles.
I think it is extremely wise to judge the implications a game mechanic will have once introduced by looking at how that mechanic has affected other games in the past.
I don't think anyone is saying "we can't have mounts in PFO because when Blizzard did it, it ruined PvP". A lot of people are saying "The way Blizzard implemented it ruined PvP" (just as an example, I'm not actually picking on Blizzard or WoW intentionally in this instance)
There is a causality to every game mechanic - especially in MMORPGs. You have 1 group who advocate for something because to them it makes sense to have it: Your knight wants a mount because that makes complete sense to you. From a role play point a view, you should have a mount. Even from a P&P game, you should have a mount. But this is a video game. More specifically this is a classless game, with a heavy emphasis on PvP. So if "knights" or "Paladins" have mounts, how does that translate into a trainable skill? Can every player train mounts? If so, what happens to the state of sieges of settlements once everyone can mount around? What about allies 1 hex over who can defend with a response time of 5-10 minutes mounted vs. a response time of 20-40 minutes on foot? This goes back to my point about how everyone would HAVE to train mounts because not having one would be drastically disadvantageous. From a roleplay point of view; does it make sense for every player to be mounted in the world? Wouldn't that break a lot of people's immersion?
Nearly every aspect of the game needs to be taken into account. For no other reason than the sake of balance. If something is unbalanced; every player feels forced into training into the skills that are 'overpowered'. I'm all for mounts if their role is specific and implemented in a way that doesn't interfere with other gameplay mechanics.
The main problem is that mounts are a thing of utility; speed, carry capacity, etc. Those qualities apply to ALL players and so you're going to have to assume that everyone will elect to train them early.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Valandur
Yes, probably just allowing mounts in the roads (and few other areas maybe) is the solution. That could be the middle term Clynix is speaking about.
@Clynnx
Maybe if all people have a basic ride skill and some classes such as paladins, fighters, rangers (and cavaliers in the future)could just have a wider range to improve in the skill or could be two different skills. Something like : "Basic riding" for all and "combat riding" for some classes, could work, don't you think?
I would like to see riding being allowed in some raid boss fighting as well that would be a cool thing to see a paladin or fighter to charge a dragon or something like that. IMO if they limit the access of mounted people to just the roads and maybe some other few areas that could work without much problem to balance.
Flying mounts? No! That I totally agree with you, can look cool in theme park RPGs but in a sandbox, it would bring more problems than advantages.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm concerned that adding mounts will cause more problems than the benefit that having them will add. For instance: combat mechanics? will it become a virtual arms race, requiring everyone to train mounts in order to be on a level playing field. I can certainly understand why a cavalier or plains barbarian type character would want a mount from a RP perspective.
I also hope that fast travel is limited and in no way similar to hearthstones or any twice/hour town recall where you can then have access to all major cities just by running through a portal. I realize this may be an unpopular stance, but I liked the feeling of the "vastness" of games by having to deal with distance the old fashion way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@All
IMO a good way to have fast travel would just be some sort of diligence-like vehicle. So you would just buy a ticket and wait the time it departs in pre-scheduled time intervals.
The diligence would not be immune to bandit attacks and, if attacked, it would have to stop and players an d NPCs (weak ones)inside it would have to deal with the encounter.
Assaulting a diligence would give the bandits not only the chance of looting other players, but also some npc loot as well. Sometimes the diligence will have just the npcs (if no players bought the tickets for that travel)and other times a group of players will be present too.
As they will not see who is in the diligence, that will always pose a risk for the bandits too, as they can just bump with some really strong players travelling in the diligence, and sometimes they will just get an easy (but less rewarding) loot from weak players and/or NPCs.
What you all think about that system I suggest?
Edit: Assaulting a diligence will ALWAYS get you flagged as criminal and attacker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm concerned that adding mounts will cause more problems than the benefit that having them will add. For instance: combat mechanics? will it become a virtual arms race, requiring everyone to train mounts in order to be on a level playing field. I can certainly understand why a cavalier or plains barbarian type character would want a mount from a RP perspective.
Well I would hope that mounted combat would require its own "talent tree" so those that choose to specialize in it would be giving up training time in regular foot combat. Just buying a mount shouldn't allow you to participate in mounted combat. They are very different skill sets.
Don't come to me with problems Clynx. Come to me with solutions!
=P
I really can't without knowing specifically how everything will work. I can only speak generally this early in development. I'm hopeful that there will be some mount system that works within the scope of this game. But I'm also aware that all the things that sound really cool add layers of complexity in regard to balance. Mounted combat vs non mounted combat for example.
I'd be really happy with something similar to the system I mentioned in FFXI. That you have to rent a mount from a stable in town, and even then it's a limited time duration.
I don't feel the world should be accessible from anywhere on a whim. When you claim territory for your company/guild, you should feel so cut off and remote that your hexes are the most important thing to you. Knowing that losing them will overwhelm you with displacement adds huge risk to the game, and I love that idea. The conventional idea of 'getting around in the world' doesn't really translate into this game. Your station or safe haven is the territory you own/control. There isn't much need to travel around radically beyond that unless you're wanting to trade/explore.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I kind of have the same feelings for mounts as I do for flying. It all needs to be implemented correctly for it to work. Whats wrong with mounts/flight in wow. Everyone can do it and their is no drawback for doing it. When I think flight in pathfinder I think a system of adventure that is just as deadly as walking on the ground. I think mounts and flight should cost something and shouldn't be accessible at a moments notice. In wow your out in the middle of nowhere but with a press of a button you have giant flying monstrosity because you paid the gold to get it. In the system I would like to see. You have to go to a stable to pickup the animal to ride and when your done you have to put it back or let it go. I also think animals(Pets/Mounts) should be kill able. If its killed and you don't have the ability to resuscitate the animal. Then you have to walk back to a stable or find another one.
@All
IMO a good way to have fast travel would just be some sort of diligence-like vehicle. So you would just buy a ticket and wait the time it departs in pre-scheduled time intervals.
The diligence would not be immune to bandit attacks and, if attacked, it would have to stop and players an d NPCs (weak ones)inside it would have to deal with the encounter.
Assaulting a diligence would give the bandits not only the chance of looting other players, but also some npc loot as well. Sometimes the diligence will have just the npcs (if no players bought the tickets for that travel)and other times a group of players will be present too.
As they will not see who is in the diligence, that will always pose a risk for the bandits too, as they can just bump with some really strong players travelling in the diligence, and sometimes they will just get an easy (but less rewarding) loot from weak players and/or NPCs.
What you all think about that system I suggest?
Edit: Assaulting a diligence will ALWAYS get you flagged as criminal and attacker.
This is similar to how they plan on doing fast travel. Except I'm not sure if they plan on having the vehicle (horses) appear in the game world as it moves from area to area. But the travelers can be stopped by highwaymen.
I like the idea of a actual vehicle crossing the game world. For RP., for scenery and for the opportunity to have conflict arise from either bandits or NPC mobs trying to rob it.
I really like the idea of if no players bought tickets, the bandits would have to fight the NPCs and get what loot the vehicle was carrying at the time. (A variation on loot) I think it would enhance the game if any communication between one settlement and the next, in the form of mail, had to travel to its destination via these fast travel vehicles. And if bandits do loot the vehicle, there is a % chance for some of that mail to be looted by the bandits. If the bandits are PCs, then they get whatever mail failed its roll. Not personal mail, just official town to town stuff, proclamations, demands, treaties things like this. That would give the bandits inside info that they could then use, or toss. The sender of any mail that got looted would get a letter explaining that their letter to X was lost during a bandit incursion and hasn't been recovered. It's sort of like adding some potential intrigue to the game. Opening the door to political possibilities.
Does this sound like something that would be worth adding? Or is it too obscure to serve a purpose?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Valandur
I really like the mail idea, would add flavour in the game and some opportunities of spying and even extortion. Yes , deffinitelly something to be considered in game design IMO.
I would preffer to see the diligence on the roads from time to time, just to add flavour , and doing other way how they would allow the bandits to assault it? They would need to find some original idea to solve that issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the system I would like to see. You have to go to a stable to pickup the animal to ride and when your done you have to put it back or let it go. I also think animals(Pets/Mounts) should be kill able. If its killed and you don't have the ability to resuscitate the animal. Then you have to walk back to a stable or find another one.
I would like to see a system very similar with the one you suggested.
I would add some ideas: The mount should be subject to be stole too. If you just dismount and leave it bound to a tree or something like that, if someone find it he could just steal it (as any stuff stored in saddle bags too).
Maybe you could pay someone (NPC or player) to ressurrect your mount too, as, for example, the paladin mount is a special one and would represent to him much more than jus a mount.
I also would like to see different kinds of mounts (no flying ones please!) just to add flavour.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have no mouts would be kind of weird, I believe we can have it with some restrictions such as just using it on road or stuff like that. I can't imagine a Pally just walking around without his mount, sounds weird.
@ Neadenil
I've read somewhere that fast travel speed is going to be around 4x player walking speed.
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It would seem to me that mounts in PfO would be easily gimped by treating them like a real mount. Like a real mount, when you dismount, your horse doesn't just disappear. If you ride your steed off into the woods, you have to dismount to do anything out there and either walk your horse with you or, using the Handle Animal skill, you could teach your mount to stay, then go back to retrieve it when you're ready to leave. Like a real mount, if it is injured or killed, you are stuck walking. This way, mounts are still, obviously, a great tactical advantage, but they are both a skill sink and an inconvenience when you're not actively using them. Towns could have grooms and stables to care for mounts when not needed (for that matter, it could be profession), blacksmiths could focus in farriery to enhance mounted speed, etc, etc.
If you balance the benefits with the risks, I think mounts can be done effectively. However, I would also caution to mind the fine line between immersive and obnoxious. No one wants to play a video game where you are required to balance a checkbook. :)
Phantom steed is going to be epic!
As far as shrinking the world, many things will do that including mounts, flight, teleports, dimension door ... or simply dieing.
I really don't mind player portals. Having played games like RO and FFXI, It was awesome to buy a portal from another player who sits in town and makes a living of selling portals.
The reason why I don't mind them is because they move a character from one town, to another far away. The player who took the portal never benefits from increased speed out in the world. And being in one town is no more advantageous than the one they ported from. Playing the market would probably be the only real objection to portals I guess. If you made it so you couldn't just move all your cargo with you it should be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alternatively portals could be expensive to use, such that a lower level character would only use them when in a hurry or when the roads are exceptionally risky. Paying to take any goods (aside from small shipments of high quality valuable crafted items) through should be uneconomic.
Otherwise issues like banditry, bounties, the need to hire guards and distance from good training suddenly become totally irrelevant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The way I envision mounts working best is to make them skill based. There could be two separate skills pertaining to mounts. Ridding would cover the use of mounts for traveling. Your skill level would affect how fast you could travel and over what type of terrain. The second skill would be mounted combat. A significant amount of training would be needed in the ride skill before a character could begin to train this skill. Training in this skill would allow the character to attack and maneuver while in combat. Perhaps at higher level the mount would be able to add attacks of its own.
So for a character to ride at all they have to have spent time training the ride ability. The basic training would allow them to ride old mare and such in towns along roads and open grassland. The speed boost the character gains would be helpful but not significant. If characters with basic ridding tried to take their mount into rough areas such as a forest swamp or rocky foothills the mount would shy away and simple refuse to enter the area. If a character with this basic skill level is mounted when combat is initiated their mount will bolt throwing the rider to the ground which could cause damage or stun them.
As the ride skill is trained the character will gain the ability to jump while mounted and convince their steed to enter more difficult terrain. A character whose primary role is that of a scout or explorer would benefit a lot from a high ridding skill.
Mounted combat would have a similar progression. The basic skill would allow for simple attacks to be made while mounted with limited maneuverability. A high level of skill would enable a character to charge enemies with a couched lance as shock cavalry or weave in and out of combat making quick attacks as light cavalry.
There are two things which I think could balance mounts. First if you invest a lot of training in mounted combat you aren't training in other useful skills. This means that while you can ride like the wind and crush your foes with a single charge you will be at a disadvantage when fighting in confined areas like dungeons sieges or deep forests. The second thing that could balance mounts is the investment and upkeep of the mount itself. To produce quality mounts a costly building could be required. After the mount is raised and purchased you will need to pay upkeep in the form of horseshoes fodder boarding ECT. This would make players carefully weigh the advantages of a mount vs. the costs.
The way I envision mounts working best is to make them skill based. There could be two separate skills pertaining to mounts. Ridding would cover the use of mounts for traveling. Your skill level would affect how fast you could travel and over what type of terrain. The second skill would be mounted combat. A significant amount of training would be needed in the ride skill before a character could begin to train this skill. Training in this skill would allow the character to attack and maneuver while in combat. Perhaps at higher level the mount would be able to add attacks of its own.
I find it unlikely that they would expand the skills as mounted combat already has 2 skills associated with it (Ride (Dex) to ride and perform mounted combat, Handle Animal (Cha) to train and care for your mount), but I suppose it's always possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder how will mount breeding work. Will players run horse farms?
Different kinds of horses such as riding horses and heavy war horses will be available too? Different appearences and colors?
Will we have mules (to carry the carts maybe)?
Other mounts (such as warpony, for smaller chars)?
Lots of questions...
But certainly most of this stuff will need some time after launch to be implemented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder how will mount breeding work. Will players run horse farms?
Different kinds of horses such as riding horses and heavy war horses will be available too? Different appearences and colors?
Will we have mules (to carry the carts maybe)?
Other mounts (such as warpony, for smaller chars)?
Lots of questions...
But certainly most of this stuff will need some time after launch to be implemented.
If there be llamas, i shall ride one.
As a future ranger I dream to be able to ride a dire wolf (my high level animal companion) instead of a ordinary horse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...how can you flee from someone who suddenly just whips up a horse from thin air?
as usual there are many things being discussed simultaneously and lots of assumptions being made on how things will be implemented. For my own sanity I try to separate the topics:
-fast travel, whether mounts, teleporting or other means. This is about "i want to play with my friends without running for 45 mins" versus "it makes the world small" vs "economy requires slow and dangerous travel"
-short term speed buffs, whether mounts, expeditious retreat, monk movement or other means. This is about pvp (running away, chasing) and about skills being so good everyone 'must' take them.
-how mounts are implemented: mounts as lootable or killable items (or persistent creatures?), mount breeding etc. We should not assume WoW-type implementation, but instead suggest better implementations. I would rather expect implementation like Fallen Earth mounts where mount spawns/despawns at stables and is persistent (and killable) creature with its own inventory. I would love mounts with a stamina bar.
-cargo transport. This seems not controversial if transporting is slow and vulnerable to attack.
-mounted combat. There seem to be assumptions that mounts give huge benefits in pvp (at least for escaping), but that depends on what abilities you can use while mounted and on how easy it is to force dismount or kill the mount. Maybe introduction of mounted combat will lead to whopping sales of polearms instead of lances.
(btw the answer to the quoted question is: by whipping out a faster horse)