Tell me this Eidolon / Summoner build is NOT OP or not done right...

[orog58]

Ok i keep seeing how people aren't doing the builds right and that summoners aren't op... explain this.

5th level build

Summoner takes 2x Extra Evolution feats which gives a total with level of 10 Evolution points to the Eidolan

4hd,+4 ,2 feat,+4 armor+2 str/dex
Stats , Str- 20 (+2 from ability increase evolution 2 points), Dex- 14, Con - 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11

2 points used

Biped Eidolan
attacks- 1 attack at +9attk (d8 +5dmg +d6 of energy), and 3 attacks at +9 (d6+5dmg +d6 of energy)
(Claw, Claw, Bite, Tail sting) + (energy attacks)
(Used bite evolution 1 point, tail 1 point, sting 1 point, energy attacks 2 points, improved damage 1 point) 6 points total

Hps- around 50ish max ( think the summoner can give their eidolan extra hps)

ac- 10 + 2 (biped), +4 natural bonus, +2 dex,+2 (give it a shield), +4 improved natural armor evolution x2, +1 dodge = 25 ac total (2 points)

Feats- Wep foc natural, dodge
I don't even need to get into the summoners spells that can increase this further!

recap... at level 5 an eidolan will have 4 attacks at +10 to hit on all of them, 3 of them doing 2d6 +5 dmg and the other doing 1d8 +1d6+5 dmg
while having 25 ac (the same or one better than our groups pally at the same level) and with better saves than most other classes.

And all that is not counting what spells the summoner can cast... how is that not Overpowered?

[Michael Sayre]

For one thing, there's not a Weapon Focus (Natural), you'd need to take it once for each natural attack (claw, bite, sting).

You've also spent two of your Summoner's 3 feats on enhancing your Eidolon, so he's now a squishy little weak spot in your Eidolon's armor with a glowing rune on his head that screams "If you kill me, the rampaging monster dies too!"

You also don't appear to have given your Eidolon enough limbs to make two claw attacks and use a shield, so your calculations are going to be off either on number of attacks or on your total AC. The Eidolon also isn't proficient with the shield you're trying to give him, so he'd be applying the shield's check penalty to his attacks.

[orog58]

even so... +9 to all attacks, and i pick a new feat throw in some toughness for more hps

[deuxhero]

For two, improved damage only effects one type of natural weapon.

For three, the attacks have to bypass DR (which they don't do naturally) AND resistance (which even the smallest resistance you can get completely stops it 5/6 times), you can't move

Let me run some average damage for a random (Oath of Vengence) paladin real quick.

edit:

STR: 18 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 7 CHA: 14

2d6 (greatsword)+5 (BAB)+4 (strength)+5 (Paladin level from Smite)+1 (enchantment)+1 (belt)+6 (power attack)=2d6+22 (average 25.5) damage
and
5 (BAB)+4 (strength)+1 (belt)+1 (sword)+2 (smite)-2 (power attack)=+12 to hit

Assuming that your Eidolan is legal (it isn't), you only get 38.5 average damage if all 4 attacks hit (average AC for CR5 is 18, which means at +10 to hit you need an 8 meaning a little over a third each of those attack misses, compared to the Paladin who is 3/4 success rate for the single hit, plus you have to be in range) and assuming you are even in range to make a full attack in the first place (you generally aren't till round two or pounce, which is off limits as a biped). Paladin also has all but one feat open to further improve damage and accuracy.

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

even so... +9 to all attacks, and i pick a new feat throw in some toughness for more hps

Try +7. That shield you're not proficient with is giving you a -2 to all of your attacks. Also, go ahead and lower your AC by another 2 points, you can only take Improved Natural Armor once per 5 levels you possess.

[Nicos]

Ssalarn wrote:

orog58 wrote:

even so... +9 to all attacks, and i pick a new feat throw in some toughness for more hps

Try +7. That shield you're not proficient with is giving you a -2 to all of your attacks.

A darkwood sield should help with that.

[Michael Sayre]

Nicos wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

orog58 wrote:

even so... +9 to all attacks, and i pick a new feat throw in some toughness for more hps

Try +7. That shield you're not proficient with is giving you a -2 to all of your attacks.

A darkwood sield should help with that.

And for 257 gp we're back to a 23 AC and still down a claw attack. So we're looking at either 1 attack at a d8 and two at a d4, or two at d6 and one at d4 with about a +9 to hit. so 1d6+1d6+5, 1d6+1d6+5, and 1d4+1d6+5.

[orog58]

You're right, sorry i was deciding whether or not to go 4 attacks or shield, and didn't erase one. so lose a claw... 3 attacks

and the summoner isn't exactly squishy when they get d8s for hps, and all they need is char and con. so a gnome at 5th level could easily have 18 con with 18 cha and have 50-60 hps. And yeah some monsters would go for the summoner if they were intelligent monsters. but it'd be pretty hard in most situations since the wizard stays in the middle of the party, and in order for a monster to get to him they'd more than likely have to get past our fighters and the eidolan and invoke attacks of opportunity.

The DM could make all the monsters extremely intelligent or always drop a mob down from the ceiling, but that shouldn't be necessary to level the playing field with the other classes. The eidolan can out damage a 2handed fighter and have more ac than a paladin, plus summoner spells... how is that not op

[drbuzzard]

That Eidolon will have nowhere near 50 HP. It will get 4d10+4 (+5 if the summoner uses their favored class bonus). On average that is 31. The Eidolon is not proficient in shields and I believe as they are a type of armor, are not allowed at all. Not to mention it is using all of its limbs to attack.

[orog58]

ok instead of putting toughness in put shield proficiency... back to +9

[orog58]

we're down to 3 attacks, that was established. still 2 more than the fighter, granted at a few less to hit. but who wouldn't take two more attacks at 2d6...

and for the guy about dmg reduction... everyone has that issue, no one has anything that can bypass special damage reduction at this point. and the eidolan can make it's attacks magical with 1 evolution point for future use.

and at level 5 how many creatures have energy resistance? we haven't ran into any so far and when they do it'd have to be specific to the resistance type you chose which would be few and far between

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

ok instead of putting toughness in put shield proficiency... back to +9

So you've now got 3 attacks at +9 with a 23 AC and around 31 hit points... Good news! You may last 2 rounds with a level appropriate challenge, like a manticore.

You're not broke, you're not even really out-performing same level martial characters.

[Seranov]

And a Barbarian at that level has +10 or better when raging, does more damage when moving, has more HP, and isn't taken out by killing the guy in light armor with a glowing sigil on his forehead.

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

we're down to 3 attacks, that was established. still 2 more than the fighter, granted at a few less to hit. but who wouldn't take two more attacks at 2d6...

and for the guy about dmg reduction... everyone has that issue, no one has anything that can bypass special damage reduction at this point. and the eidolan can make it's attacks magical with 1 evolution point for future use.

and at level 5 how many creatures have energy resistance? we haven't ran into any so far and when they do it'd have to be specific to the resistance type you chose which would be few and far between

You mean that fighter who's probably doing 4d6+7+6+1 (assuming Vital Strike and Power Attack with a 20 STR and no weapon enhancement). Yeah, you're really out-performing him. You're averaging maybe 33 damage a round to his 26, and that's assuming you manage to full attack every round with the enemies just walking into your attacks. The fighter does that damage while charging, moving, etc.

[orog58]

and this is all NOT counting summoner spells! Mage armor would give an additional +4 ac and lasts 1hour/lvl which would pretty much allow it to be up the whole day that you're up, so boost that ac +4 more.... then cast haste during battles and get +1 to hit and an extra attack.... give me a break

[orog58]

a fighter can't have vital strike at lvl 5.... and the fighter would only have 1 d10 more hps than the eidolan. Plus i forgot about the ability point the eidolan gets so put into con, get an extra 5 hps

[BillyGoat]

orog58 wrote:

and this is all NOT counting summoner spells! Mage armor would give an additional +4 ac and lasts 1hour/lvl which would pretty much allow it to be up the whole day that you're up, so boost that ac +4 more.... then cast haste during battles and get +1 to hit and an extra attack.... give me a break

Given that Haste will affect up to 5 people with that Level 5 summoner, the fighter is hasted, too. Therefore, you can ignore all aspects of haste in your math.

Also, as has been pointed out a strict reading of the Eidolon says "an eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind". This would, strictly speaking, mean he can't use a shield.

So drop his AC back down by two, but give him back his fourth attack & find something else to spend that feat on besides proficiency.

As far as the challenge of proving that the build is either not over-powered or not legal, I think it's been adequately rebuked.

EDIT

orog58 wrote:

and for the guy about dmg reduction... everyone has that issue, no one has anything that can bypass special damage reduction at this point. and the eidolan can make it's attacks magical with 1 evolution point for future use.

Except for silvered weapons, cold iron weapons, and the Magic Weapon spell. I'll grant, your beastie can benefit from the Magic Fang spell, but that's one out of three very common DR you're facing at Level 5.

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

and this is all NOT counting summoner spells! Mage armor would give an additional +4 ac and lasts 1hour/lvl which would pretty much allow it to be up the whole day that you're up, so boost that ac +4 more.... then cast haste during battles and get +1 to hit and an extra attack.... give me a break

You've got to make a full attack to get that extra attack from haste. And has been pointed out by everyone else, the fighter doesn't have a squishy caster he has to keep standing lest he die. The summoner's a potent force, don't get me wrong, but he's got a lot of weaknesses.

Your Eidolon's saves are going to be about 5/2/4, so he's not going to be saving against much, and if you give him a Cloak of Resistance, your Summoner can't wear and benefit from a cloak also since they share item slots.

[Wind Chime]

Here a comparable 5th level melee dps build to compare.

5th Level Halfling Cavalier (gendarme) Build

Stats (15 points)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 0
Wis 0
Cha 12

Feats:
1st Risky Striker, Mounted Combat
3rd Power Attack
5th Ride By, Spirited Charge

Cavalier Charge, Expert Trainer, Banner

Assuming you are up against a large enemy wielding a +1 lance two handed that means.

AB:5(bab)+2(str)+4(charge)+1(size)+1(banner)-2(PA)= 11

3(1d6 +3(strength)+4 (risky striker) + 6 (power attack)+1)

or 3d6+42

or an average of 54 damage which could be 60 with a challenge.

[orog58]

ok 4 attacks and 23ac +4 for mage armor (which he is not WEARING in anyway) 27 ac... then change the proficiency feat for toughness add another 4 hps plus the 5 from the earlier not about constituation, we're up to 40 hps according to the average the previous guy said. how much would the average fighter have? only a d10 more... not exactly going to withstand more especially with less ac

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

a fighter can't have vital strike at lvl 5.... and the fighter would only have 1 d10 more hps than the eidolan. Plus i forgot about the ability point the eidolan gets so put into con, get an extra 5 hps

You put all of your ability points into STR, there are no extra points for more hp. Fair point on the Vital Strike though, I guess I'll just have to add in Weapon Specialization instead.

Or I could play a half-orc ranger with the Natural Weapon Fighting style and play a character with just as many natural attacks plus a pet of his own....

The Summoner just isn't as broken as you want it to be, especially the build you've got here.

[Seranov]

Well, to be fair, it's in the Fighter's best interests to protect his spellasters. But he's certainly not required to at risk of being poofed out of existence (generally), you're right.

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

ok 4 attacks and 23ac +4 for mage armor (which he is not WEARING in anyway) 27 ac... then change the proficiency feat for toughness add another 4 hps plus the 5 from the earlier not about constituation, we're up to 40 hps according to the average the previous guy said. how much would the average fighter have? only a d10 more... not exactly going to withstand more especially with less ac

Like I just pointed out, if you have a 20 STR, you don't have any more points to bump your CON. Go ahead and forget about that extra 5 hp.

[orog58]

Wind Chime wrote:

Here a comparable 5th level melee dps build to compare.

5th Level Halfling Cavalier (gendarme) Build

Stats (15 points)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 0
Wis 0
Cha 12

Feats:
1st Risky Striker, Mounted Combat
3rd Power Attack
5th Ride By, Spirited Charge

Cavalier Charge, Expert Trainer, Banner

Assuming you are up against a large enemy wielding a +1 lance two handed that means.

AB:5(bab)+2(str)+4(charge)+1(size)+1(banner)-2(PA)= 11

3(1d6 +3(strength)+4 (risky striker) + 6 (power attack)+1)

or 3d6+42

or an average of 54 damage which could be 60 with a challenge.

ok not even sure where to start on this... first of all you're making specifically going against a large monster..

secondly, risky striker isn't a feat in the normal books, not sure where you're getting that from... and assuming you're able to ride a horse (i.e. not in a dungeon).... wow

[orog58]

Ssalarn wrote:

orog58 wrote:

ok 4 attacks and 23ac +4 for mage armor (which he is not WEARING in anyway) 27 ac... then change the proficiency feat for toughness add another 4 hps plus the 5 from the earlier not about constituation, we're up to 40 hps according to the average the previous guy said. how much would the average fighter have? only a d10 more... not exactly going to withstand more especially with less ac

Like I just pointed out, if you have a 20 STR, you don't have any more points to bump your CON. Go ahead and forget about that extra 5 hp.

Biped equals 16 strength, +2 from levels, +2 from ability increase evolution= 20.... then i spend the extra point at 4th level in Con.... there's the 5 hps back

[Wind Chime]

orog58 wrote:

Wind Chime wrote:

Here a comparable 5th level melee dps build to compare.

5th Level Halfling Cavalier (gendarme) Build

Stats (15 points)
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 0
Wis 0
Cha 12

Feats:
1st Risky Striker, Mounted Combat
3rd Power Attack
5th Ride By, Spirited Charge

Cavalier Charge, Expert Trainer, Banner

Assuming you are up against a large enemy wielding a +1 lance two handed that means.

AB:5(bab)+2(str)+4(charge)+1(size)+1(banner)-2(PA)= 11

3(1d6 +3(strength)+4 (risky striker) + 6 (power attack)+1)

or 3d6+42

or an average of 54 damage which could be 60 with a challenge.

ok not even sure where to start on this... first of all you're making specifically going against a large monster..

secondly, risky striker isn't a feat in the normal books, not sure where you're getting that from... and assuming you're able to ride a horse (i.e. not in a dungeon).... wow

It's in the advanced race guide. Being small means you can ride your mount in any location that a medium character can walk so unless you are dealing with dungeons where the rest of the party has to crawl the cavalier will be ok. He still does decent damage against normal sized and under creatures (about 40ish) and decimates bosses (most of which are large) who can be challenged.

[lantzkev]

So to recap it all, challenge given, board accepted, board proved wrong.

Answer: Reject null hypothesis.

[Seranov]

I get the feeling he had long since made up his mind, before he even started the thread.

[Michael Sayre]

orog58 wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

orog58 wrote:

ok 4 attacks and 23ac +4 for mage armor (which he is not WEARING in anyway) 27 ac... then change the proficiency feat for toughness add another 4 hps plus the 5 from the earlier not about constituation, we're up to 40 hps according to the average the previous guy said. how much would the average fighter have? only a d10 more... not exactly going to withstand more especially with less ac

Like I just pointed out, if you have a 20 STR, you don't have any more points to bump your CON. Go ahead and forget about that extra 5 hp.

Biped equals 16 strength, +2 from levels, +2 from ability increase evolution= 20.... then i spend the extra point at 4th level in Con.... there's the 5 hps back

Ah, yes, your 5th level Ability Score increase. That will get your odd modifier back up to a 14. So we get a nice 36 hp for our Eidolon, plus 6 for Toughness, giving us 42 hp. A martial character with the same basic stat array will probably have 50 assuming he takes Toughness as well, so not a huge difference overall there.

Of course, your Summoner has, what, maybe hopefully 40? And an AC of what? Maybe hopefully 18 or 20?
The Summoner and his Eidolon are powerful, no one's arguing. But most well built characters can perform comparably to your proposed build with a lot fewer holes in their armor.

[wraithstrike]

I will also add that any class cause problems if someone wants to optimize, especially if the player is better at building and tactics than the GM is.

The summoner just makes optimizing easier, but that does not mean it is OP.

[Michael Sayre]

Seranov wrote:

I get the feeling he had long since made up his mind, before he even started the thread.

He had. People can point out all day long that a same level druid can buff and attack just as effectively with their pet, or that mounted rangers/druids/cavaliers are capable of easily as much damage with a single attack that's much easier to accomplish than a full attack, but some people just really want something to be broken.

What's sad is that it's actually a fairly sub-par build. Someone who really wanted to show what a summoner and his eidolon are capable of would have known that having 2-3 attacks and a slightly lower AC in favor of the Pounce evolution is always going to be more effective in play, and much harder to gainsay in the forums.

The Summoner is a highly customizable class that favors system mastery to a degree somewhat higher than other classes. Its also got glaring weaknesses that make it a risky class to play. The Synthesist Summoner is probably the closest build to actually being "broken" compared to other characters, and that build sacrifices the enhanced action economy that the normal summoner benefits from.
5th level is a pretty good level to showcase the summoner though. Most other classes won't pick up their extra attacks for another level, and many feats have a pre-req of BAB +6. But if you look just one level in either direction, you quickly see that this is a nice peak level for the summoner. One more level and you'll have archers who can safely make 4 attacks from much greater ranges with similar damage bonuses, gunslingers who can make even more attacks than that, and THW fighters and barbarians who will do as much in a single hit and potentially substantially more on a full attack. A level in the other direction and you've got an Eidolon with much fewer hp, and likely fewer attacks or lower defenses.

[lantzkev]

They usually pick a lvl where the eidolon has just gotten access to a specific ability or evolution that everyone else won't get equal to or better than until the next level or so...

[Rynjin]

Also would like to point out that a +7-+9 to-hit is still not this uber-impressive thing he's making it out to be, even at level 5.

[Michael Sayre]

Rynjin wrote:

Also would like to point out that a +7-+9 to-hit is still not this uber-impressive thing he's making it out to be, even at level 5.

No, most fighters have that to-hit range by level 2 or so. Not as many attacks, but often much more effective ones. And without pounce or ranged attacks, a large number of melee attacks will only carry you so far. It's one of the reasons the monk and the TWF are typically considered to be some of the weakest builds in the game. Flurry or a bunch of off-hand attacks (or a bunch of natural attacks) don't do squat if the enemy ends his turn 10 feet away.

[lantzkev]

or if the enemy has DR 5 anything but magic.

[The NPC]

I don't believe you can take extra evolution again until 7th level. It's a 1 per 5 summoner levels kind of thing.

[Rynjin]

The NPC wrote:

I don't believe you can take extra evolution again until 7th level. It's a 1 per 5 summoner levels kind of thing.

It's right there on the description:

Quote:

This evolution can be taken once at 1st level, and again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th.

[BillyGoat]

Specific wording in Ultimate Magic, first printing, is "once for every five levels of summoner".

errata for 1st-to-2nd printing says "1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th".

So you might have the 1st printing of UM, like me.

[Psion-Psycho]

Eh ive seen better Synthesis builds that claim there OP. Here is my version of OP that iv played in a real game fro level 2-18. It starts off as a Synthesis at level 1 then at level 2 its monk and at level 3-4 its paladin then back to Synthesis.

-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1

-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34

-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40

AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28

-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34

-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44

AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58

-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)

-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20

-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)

High ac, saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.

[lantzkev]

and of course it uses a huge level of cheese (dump stats and age penalties!)

Of course though, dispell magic, wall of supression, etc will wreck that "uber" build at lvl 18.

I still have a hard time pictuing anyone actually playing that from lvl 1 - 20 like you've claimed... it seems unlikely or in a very munchkin-eque game, and also a game likely to have killed it at lvl 2-5

[Psion-Psycho]

@ lantzkev
The spell resistance helps a lot against a lot of those spells which did come up. The game went to level 18 because it dealt with a lot of RP and the characters, like my self, had interesting back story to drive them to continue until there goals were met. Though the DM sets the premise and frame of he story it is the players that drive it to the end or through the floor. Admittedly character is complete cheese but i dont skimp on RP like a lot of the power gaming munchkins out there.

[lantzkev]

Dispell magic doesn't care about SR, same with the wall. It's pretty much pure 11+spell caster level caster check, which you're behind by 3 on. so if the CR evil guy is casting on you, he most likely needs a 7+ if not worse.

I know some hardcore games, and they can cheese something up... they can also RP well too, but that doesn't excuse the cheese =D

Course we talk and they tone it down when asked to.

[Jack Rift]

Random side note, how did the int 0 wis 0 halfling work? Cant ever move? Sorry, know that was not the point. Yeah, I have seen 1st lvl barbars with almost as high +8 while raging, pulling a +5 when not power attacking. Hell I have a dex high black blade keinsi using a dualing sword with a +9 at lvl 4. So yeah, your to hit is not great. Ac is alright, but you lack hp, saves, ranged attacks, and strong damage. Sorry.

[Vincent Takeda]

Psion-Psycho wrote:

Admittedly character is complete cheese but i dont skimp on RP like a lot of the power gaming munchkins out there.

50 gold pieces says Roberta Yang reads that quote and mistakes you for being me :P

[Psion-Psycho]

@lantzkev
i usally tone it down a lot for my characters out of respect for the DM but that DM did not believe that limits are needed on some classes, races, and wealth was not needed so i wanted to show him instead of tell him. Safe to say he got the message and now is better at limiting races and classes to those that make sense for the games he run. I do have to say it was fun RPing the character's feebleness of old age and how she went off on a paladin for being rude to her. Dam paladins and never opening the door for the elderly, refusing to escort the elderly across the road, and the most vile thing of all not helping her in2 the cart when she needed to leave. Im glad i killed that paladin he was truly rude.

@Vincent Takeda
lol

[lantzkev]

I just have a hard time believing it lived from lvl 2 through 5...

I cannot think of a single AP or game world where a character would not of, even with the respectable AC not have lost the amount of hp that "skin" provides you

[Psion-Psycho]

All i have to say is background story and diplomacy. Its truly fun when u can diplomacy ur family into escort u through the goblin infested forest and using them as meat shields. If that family want my inheritance they will have to earn it. Same goes for them dame adventures that escorted me though the zombie mines. Sadly they did earn it and did not die horribly like i planned to loot there stuf and sell it at god awful prices at town like i did with my family's stuf. Got to love diplomacy and bluff skills XD