http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p9yq?Doing-Away-with-Class-Spell-Lists-and-Arc ane#1
Above is my thread proposing a similar idea.
If you're going this route then I think you should restrict classes - get rid of the divine classes entirely, leave casting strictly to the arcanists. Perhaps change Witch to be Wisdom-based so casting PCs have one option for each of the mental scores - smart and studious Wizards, wise and cunning Witches, or amazing and awe-inspiring Sorcerers.
Witch pretty much already has a large chunk - though not all - of divine magic under its belt, and IMO it hasn't broken the game; handing out arcane spells - especially some of the common game-breaker spells on the wiz/sorc list - to heavily armored, no-failure divine casters would be problematic without some stricter restrictions (such as "no more than half your spell list can be arcane spells" or something similar, and that only really works with spont-casters).
And to answer the inevitable question of "what about spells that are on two different lists at different levels?" I'd say always take whichever is higher.
Hello Vestrial.
As someone who is also working out ideas/tinkering with the "Vancian" magic system that I so despise, the first area I would look at is how the cleric and wizard spell lists (by far the most extensive of the divine and arcane lists, respectively) interact witb a druid using wildshaping for hours on end. Also take a look at personal spells, and keep an eye on the ranger's spell list.
Some forms that I and other druid players have used and abused over the years that may be particularly relevant to your analysis include: air elemental, earth elemental, behemoth hippopotamus, squid, dire ape, tendriculous, and bat (for summoner type druids that emphasize Stealth, you'd be unlikely to see them and they can just unload all sorts of fun with a combined spell list; e.g., 5-10 hasted Lantern Archons can take out a dragon).
Having played since 2nd Edition D&D, I have found that the natural reaction is that many players and GMs visualize clerics casting fireballs or mages using heal spells and have a visceral reaction to it. However, my experience has been that it is not damage dealing that breaks the game because it's always easy to add more HP or opponents. It's the non-damaging stuff (e.g., wall of thorns/black tentacles/solid fog; astral projection; commune; etc) that tends to break the game.
Of course, I also really enjoy Shadowrun - a game with "combined spell lists" and where magicians can astrally project at will - and it is very influential to my thinking. To the extent that you might find it applicable, I would encourage you to look into how Shadowrun addresses magician's "class" as a tradition (i.e., a belief system that governs how a character believes magic works and how magic should be used, but does not impact how magic actually works and how it is accessed).
SR ROCKS!! fantastic magic system that demonstrates that flavor can define something just as well as actual mechanics. The only place where SR mechanics comes into play is in summoning (which pretty much happens at will as well as the projecting.
3.5 had a book called Unearthed Arcana, which was a collection of optional rules for the most part. It included a striped down version of the game that had only 3 classes, the warrior, the thief, and the mage. You might want to take a look at it as a jump off point.
Another option is you write up a basic spell pool, mana, magic points, whatever you want to call it, and price stuff out by level, since there is no specific class list. Make it more expensive for stuff with expensive material components?
The reason you have class lists is simply balance. The balance is the fact that the same spells are less likely to be spammed by everyone. And combining personal spells for the most part. Now all personal spells are available, which are the combos that were least likely before. Also combos in general become more common even if they are not personal, since one character can follow one class and eventually collect all the pieces. Someone could pack nothing but damage and a few healing spells (or a wand, since now any caster can use any wand) with little to no buffs, no worries.
As far as global benefits, everyone (casters) gets elementals sooner (summon nature's ally line). Anyone can summon anything. Everyone can heal. Everyone can teleport. Everyone can stop any caster early on (color spray or silence). Everyone can imbue with spell ability. Everyone can raise. Protection spells are weaker, since alignment spells of all types potentially become more common. And permanency just became megafun.
Assuming you are still using the dreadful Vancian magic system (spells per day, and yes I still use it too) every caster, with sufficient levels, can make themselves into whatever they want.
My standard set of buffs would look something like this*:
Long: Arcane Sight, Darkvision, Death Ward, Endure Elements, Freedom of Movement, Mage Armor, Magic Vestment, Mount (woohoo I can summon and move), Phantom Steed (better!), Protection from arrows, Resist Energy,
Short: Displacement, Invisibility (assuming I am not being direct), Mirror Image, Protection from [most likely evil], Reduce person (fantastic defensive spell for most non weapon users), Shield, Shield of Faith,
Melee: Aid, Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, Enlarge Person, Greater magic Weapon, Rage, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Strike (potentially, I might have just imbued a weapon with it, wand it, or contingency if high enough), Also a beast shape or elemental body if I find it useful over Righteous Might (one polymorph at a time).
Mage Battles: Globe of invulnerability, Misdirection, Spell Immunity, Spell Resistance, True Seeing
*= some of those spells will be in scrolls or wands, since I can make any I need and use without an issue, or permanent through permanency or worn items. Remember that some of these fall off as I continue to level up, potentially added back in when long duration or extra spell slots are common.
Assuming I am caught offguard and I am not killed/unconscious right away, I can dimension door to safety, summon or crowd control, then begin buffing, if for some reason I just don't run away to fight another day.
That is only up to 5th level spells from cleric and wizard, one pally spell for melee. I am sure I would find a few more in other lists, especially if you use anything other than corebook.
Hope that helps a bit ^.^
If you want something else, specify what you want, you asked a very open question.
Of course there is illegal stacking, it is range of spells hand picked from two spells lists, not a list of spells that will specifically stack with each and everyone (did you read the * at the bottom?). In fact, the melee spell list has no problems stacking at all other than enlarge person/righteous might. You never specified what levels you expect to play, so a general analysis makes sense. I capped it at 5th level spells because games usually play in that range. You said a setting, you never specified anything else. Everything I have given you is a combo.
A combo can be as simple as wizard + cure spells.
The legal combos I wrote (much easier to see, rather than staring at a bunch of lists) are still very nasty. They don't even include most of the great paladin spells that a weapon wielding cleric would salivate at the thought; holy sword anyone? make a +5 holy weapon with a 4th level spell, at level 7. Even worth using on your party's beat stick weapon of choice for many levels.
Just because you can make some of these mixes right now, does not mean that they are easy to make happen without cooperation (that is a huge deal, more so than the new combos). When you can have 2 or 3 characters in a party of four make their own spell combos work (regardless if they are legal regularly or not) they will likely be more powerful than normal. So stuff will be easier, potentially game breaking based on your point of view. And the crafting and building possibilities are very nice too.
The clerical melee buff spells + transformation would be pretty nasty. And then you add displacement and mirror image, and that caster is stupidly powerful. The enemy can bypass illusions? then buff your AC. Barkskin (natural armor) Magic Vestment (enhancement), Mage Armor (armor bonus), Shield (shield bonus), Shield of Faith (Deflection bonus, not a shield bonus, not sure why you want to lump it into Shield). Since they all stack, very little will make it through. Add in some of the hand spells (interposing hand), and the numbers get pretty impressive. Don't forget they are all at full caster level, so the benefits are better.
SEMITANGENT= Bless weapon should probably not be rolled into magic weapon, makes no sense.
When every caster can imbue with spell ability, anyone can have a spell up their sleeve, easily an early version of contingency now available to grant everyone. Every caster should imbue every melee with at least one cure every day. Totally worth the potential action economy every combat.
You cannot use potions/oils for personal spells, so no you can't just make these stacks right now. Wands or scrolls require use magic device, and have a fail chance per use, requiring a buy-in.
Master Ankho was correct when he said: "It's the non-damaging stuff (e.g., wall of thorns/black tentacles/solid fog; astral projection; commune; etc) that tends to break the game."
The combos are less of a problem, its more about the extra abilities earned or a specific spell added to a type of caster. Everyone walking through walls (rather than stone shaping, or wood warping, or changing into a burrrowing creature), everyone flying (rather than changing to a bird, or air walking). Every spellcasting class can do most things, everyone being a bit better from some angle than everyone else or getting it sooner. With no class spell lists, everyone simply cherrypicks what works best.
For example, most casters (other than necromancers) will probably forget about false life and vampiric touch, since they can just cure themselves now.
A druid can use (deeper) darkness spells and be a bat, debuffing a huge list of enemies.
Alter Self/Disguise Self + Detect Thoughts + Discern Lies/Zone of Truth can get interesting in social situations. Don't forget Modify Memory after you are done.
Flame Blade + attack bonus spells.
A ranger with Flame Arrow can have quite a bit of fun with fire and add and extra 2.5 damage per shot.
Foresight + Moment of Prescience. >.<
Anyone (not just druids who respect nature and won't abuse it) can ironwood + wood shape to make +1 weapons or armor and sell them as permanent magic items, making a mint as long as they don't get caught.
Tracking becomes useless, everyone has Pass without Trace.
Everyone can Plane Shift at level 9.
Rusting grasp is significantly more common.
The spoilered lists are just a glance of the spells that one type of caster would want, it's not all-inclusive, just a quick look at the stuff that is most likely to be touched upon by the general purview of that class.
I know I am long winded, sorry.
Every spell becomes more powerful, since every spell is more likely to be used. There will be more instances of cure spells, since the spells are available to all casting classes. The same for low level evocations, since every 5th level caster can fireball (not just wizards and sorcerers). The numbers change because every day, an army can change to be a force of destruction, and then change tomorrow into a force of healing for their troops.
A smart player or two can run the game with divinations; always walk in preparred, the batman effect. Hell, all you need is to hit level 7 and grab a cohort and you can autorun the low level diviniations so you know what to prepare for the day. (yes, you can technically do the cohort part now, but the class matters more now).
The druid can keep up Pass without trace, if your party has a druid. The spell as it is currently ruled (with spell lists) is less likely to be available in every party of four, statistically (11 classes). That is part of the game balance. I am not against your idea, I am simply stating this as matter-of-fact, since you seem to think otherwise. Spell availability and limitations are part of spell power balance.
When everyone can use 1st level evocations (with just one level), chaos would be higher in every war in history, to say the least.
Those 20 healers in the backline each have a magic missile wand they made, for protection. They can kill quite a bit with those wands while they wait for someone to be hurt. From 100+ ft. away.
Magic vestment can be cast on regular clothing, and it does stack with mage armor.
Mirror image does trump most AC buffs (add displacement and you double the images). I mentioned the ac buffs to show stacking (at full caster level no less) and used illusion-bypassing as a tie-in.
Vestrial: "I will also probably cut spells that mostly duplicate other spells (Shield of faith becomes shield, bless weapon becomes magic weapon, etc)"
You're the one who said it, not me.
If you are removing all divine inspired spells, that is different than just eliminating spell lists. Spells work in different ways, and if you will be eliminating some, and not others, you will be leaving holes.
You keep changing what you want. Read OP, it says:
"no divine magic. All priests are mages who use arcane magic. I don't want to restrict the available classes, though, so I'm just refluffing divine casters as different schools of arcane magic.
I'm considering ditching specific class lists, and just having one mega list from which any spellcaster could pick their spells."
First paragraph: all classes are available, you are just changing flavor, not mechanics.
Second paragraph: No class spell lists. One major mechanical change.
Other than the word 'Shield' in the name and affecting AC, the spell Shield and Shield of Faith have nothing in common. They are different types of bonuses. Eliminating one (as you are now stating you are doing) will leave a hole in the ac buffing balance of the system. That is ok, just be aware.
Sorry I did not answer one of your questions:
Divine Power + Giant form (1-2) + Righteous Might + transformation = mega combat monster.
At caster level 15:
+5 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skill checks. You also gain 15 temporary hit points. Whenever you make a full-attack action, you can make an additional attack at your full base attack bonus, plus any appropriate modifiers.
Huge creature of the giant type. You gain a +8 size bonus to Strength, a –2 penalty to Dexterity, a +6 size bonus to Constitution, a +6 natural armor bonus, low-light vision, and a +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, rend (2d8 damage), regeneration 5, rock catching, and rock throwing (range 120 feet, 2d10 damage). If the creature has immunity or resistance to one element, you gain that immunity or resistance. If the creature has vulnerability to an element, you gain that vulnerability.
Next increase your size category to the next larger one. A -2 Penalty to Dexterity. You gain DR becomes 10/evil or 10/good. Your size modifier for AC and attacks changes as appropriate to your new size category. This spell doesn't change your speed. Determine space and reach as appropriate to your new size. (which is now GARGANTUAN)
You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).
There are other benefits from spell overlap that don't stack. You have no negatives to DEX because you also gain a +4 to Dex, for a zero-sum (I think the penalties stack, otherwise you are looking at +2 dex).
Fighter Bab (with all iterative attacks) and proficiencies, Extra attack, +12 str, +10 con, +6 Nat. Arm bonus, +5 damage (not including STR), +15 HP (not including CON), +10 speed, Dr 10, +5 fort, and some more misc buffs.
Righteous Might and Giant form, if you can legally get them on the target, stack. One changes you to a large or huge giant type (a polymorph effect, not a size increase) and Righteous Might (not a polymorph effect, a size increase) moves you up one size category. The only size increase is Righteous Might. Normally this is not an issue because they are both personal spells, and no domains gives giant form, it has never come up, to my knowledge.
A gargantuan combat monster who can mirror image and greater invisibility (need true seeing to bypass both, iirc). The damage is insane (6d6 base on a greatsword) for a fighter or barbarian of level 15. They can already become monsters so many different ways (the best really is crowd control/summoning as a wiz, it still allows your party to feel useful and you set the tempo of every battle) you are just making it happen faster.
It is not so much breaking the game as much as the noncasters are going to be outclassed faster.
I am not contradicting myself at all. They are separate instances based on different variables. One is an example of stacking being too strong. The other is a valid statement about what will occur when you start removing spells. Items cannot be created, creatures lose abilities or suddenly become much more powerful from lack of sources to combat them with, among other things.
Without Shield of Faith (among many other spells you will probably remove, rather than refluff, as you originally intended), for example, you eliminate the only early source of deflection bonuses to ac. Now items with deflection bonuses are more expensive, since the entry point to make is a higher level spell. This hurts magic item users, specifically noncasters.
Wizards who can cast divine spells really aren't that much more powerful than regular wizards. The problem with the suggestion in the other topic was letting clerics - complete with d8 hit die, ability to cast in armor, 3/4 BAB, etc - cast from the whole arcane list.
That is not rules lawyering, it is the RAW. Please don't accuse me of something without actual justification. I have not written anything here that is a stretch of the rules, just the exact combination of a situation you created. One is changing you into a different creature, the other is actually growing you. Assuming you do it in the correct order, they stack.
I am the one that makes calls on rules at my table, even when not dming. 9 times out of 10 I side with the dm, because he is usually right, and the players are trying a fast one in some way or another. I like a fair game, even when it is not to the advantage of my character, otherwise there is no challenge.
Remember, one is a transmutation effect, the other one is a transmutation (polymorph) effect. Which do stack native.
The argument comes down to whether you consider both a size increase or don't; I did some searching and there is plenty of argument on this for both sides, so pick whatever works for you.
If you really want to argue it, then replace giant form with polymorph any object.
PaO very explicitly states that you become a new creature. Not "assume form". Not "increase size category". You are a new creature. That means you are no longer the old creature. Not a size increase.
That is not rules lawyering, it is the RAW.
What definition of rules lawyering are you using?
It is up to your DM. That's not really a good solution, and i think the polymorph / shapechange changes are one of the least well thought changes in pathfinder. Because it makes an interresting spell with story potential (but also very good benefits that can buff you) to a spell that is now primary useful for buffing. In both editions the spell needs a DM who makes it function in his campaign, and house rules it.
There are other issues with the PRPG version, too - for example that there are creatures you can not polymorph into (as no polymorph spells for this creature type exist), or if non humanoid creatures use the spells (they can still only polymorph into humanoids). Or static bonuses regardless if the origin and target creature match the bonus (old lady form giving you bonus str, for example).
Personally i find still the greatest issue with polymorph (and its ilk) is that no one explains what creatures you know to polymorph into. This is the same problem as in 3.5, but it is even greater in pathfinder as you can not polymorph into someone you have seen. And therefore this common house ruling does no longer makes sense. Because it makes it even less logical. You can not look like (for example) the only drow you have seen in your life - but polymorphing into a average looking drow is no problem, even if you do not know what an average drow looks like. In fact there is no reason why you would need to "know" the creature. You can not polymorph into this creature anyway.
But in the end it is like every "bad" rule - you can change it.
One spell explicitly turns you into a different creature, the other one makes you grow, regardless of what creature you are.
However, I misread your quote, which does end the argument.
Rules lawyering is attempting to use RAW or RAI for your benefit, at least that is how its always been used in my circles. I gain no benefit from this, I am simply trying to help Vestrial.
I meant the polymorph rules in general as a "bad" rule, not the one that stopped the stacking, which I am fine with. A caster with a 6d6 base damage greatsword and 25 ft reach is just a pain to deal with on the board, even if it wasn't game breaking.
It's the same reason no one in my group abuses summoning/necromancy and fills the board with creatures, even if the rules allow it, its just a pain and makes the game no fun.
Good luck Vestrial =)