Sylph feat Cloud Gazer confusion

[Crimeo]

Quote:

Even if you take your "2nd reading" it is still <5ft you see without penalty.

I know. The FIRST reading is the one that would end up resulting in >5 feet.

If you read it as "Triples how far you can see[. And does so] without penalty" then that reading would result in a conclusion of being able to see 15 feet with no miss chance, then suddenly dropping to 100% miss chance at 20 feet.

Because the distance you can SEE, period, into obscuring mist, is 5 feet. Yes, you have a 20% miss chance, but you can still see. So if you triple the distance you can see[.] then you can now see 15 feet. NOW as a second, separate clause, apply no penalty to that. So now you can see 15 feet, without penalty.

That's the first reading.

The second reading results in 0*3 = 0 feet.

[Draudroh]

Blakmane wrote:

Draudroh wrote:

"The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). "

Per that quote directly from the spell even if in the mist your vision isn't obscured until you reach 5ft and beyond so you only incur a "penalty" to your vision at a distance of equal to or greater than 5 feet. So it would still be 5x3 = 15 feet where anything below 15ft doesn't obscure your sight and anything 15ft and greater does. I think the confusion for that is you don't have any "obscured vision" until you get to 5 feet.

An adjacent creature is 5 feet away from you, not >0 but <5 feet away from you. Ex: An aura or spell with 5ft range, or 5ft reach, all effect only adjacent squares. You measure from equivalent positions within the square, not the closest possible positions.

Yes but that still doesn't change the fact that your vision isn't obscured till you reach 5ft. So it is still 5x3 = 15ft when you vision is obscured. Anything under that is not. So to put it in your terms of adjacent creature which is "squares" you will be able to see thing 2 squares away(10ft) but not 3 square (15ft). And yes while in obscuring mist without the feat you can only see thing that is "in your square" and the penalty applies once you try to reach outside your "5ft reach". Which I guarantee is what the author meant otherwise why even put the 3 times multiplier in there for describing the effect while in magical fog when all magical fog at most would let you have a <5ft non concealment range. So if that was the case, the author of the feat would just put "Cloud Gazer has no benefit in magical fog."

[Crimeo]

If you want to base things off of clear vision in your own square:

The average distance between two points in a unit square is about 0.512003, or for a 5' square, 2.56', x3 = 7.68'.

Or if you want to interpret it as MAXIMUM distance within your square, that would be rad(2) or 1.414 x5' x3 = 21.21'

Or if you want to interpret it as you being at the center, then 0.5 x5' x3 = 7.5'

Not seeing how 15 comes out of this in any reasonable interpretation.

[Draudroh]

Since I already know the debate about this specific issue will never end. I will just say one last thing regarding this. Yes, you can use the firm 0 and 5 increment in regards to attacks, and movement, which they did to simplify the system to make it multiples of 5. However, this issue isn't in regards to that it is in regards to vision. That is to say if you have a firm 30 ft vision and something is 29 ft away from your character you can see it but if it is 31ft away you can't. In this case if you use the general rule of rounding down, 4.9 ft drops down to 4ft in this case for unobscured vision. This would make it 4x3 = 12 feet which when you convert it to the map squares would be 2 squares away (10ft) unobscured vision and 3 square (15ft) obscured vision.

[Berti Blackfoot]

Ok I realize I'm probably wrong about the clear in adjacent sqare thing (it would provide no concealmemt on the edge, which is what you'd expect)

But regardless you'd still have 1 square of 20% concealment before the cannot see them at all/50% starts.

So being a Sylph, it would let you see into the square after the adjacent square. Meaning that you wouldn't have to stand at the very edge of a cloud, you could stand 2 squares from the edge, and attack/cast against enemies outside the cloud while they could not see you at all.

Just don't cast burning hands ;-)