I think I am being turned to the idea that magic item creation in and of itself needs a fix (as well as to Adamantine Dragons position that magic items themselves are the cause of the problem)
Some things I would implement to the crafting rules and magic items themselves:
1) Magic items should be removed from the inherent progression of the game completely. Especially in terms of the Big 6 magic items. The bonuses gained from these items should instead be made apart of the inherent progression of the game. Basically, Characters should simply get these bonuses as apart of leveling up. (How this interacts with DR would be another interesting notion. It could mean that items would need special properties again in order to get through said DR, or one could implement the notion that fighters and other martial classes gain abilities that allow their attacks to bypass DR as a class feature.)
2) Remove the necessity of spells and feats in crafting magic items, and instead make ones ability to craft magic items dependent on the craft skill themselves with set DCs based on the item being created.
3) Organize and consolidate the craft skills themselves (Bows and weapons should not be separate categories).
4) Reorganize the Wealth by Level chart for PCs to account for players no longer needing the big 6 magic items.
The basic idea behind all of this is that a character wouldn't need anything more than a +1 Sword and instead of enchanting or replacing it so as to keep up with the numbers in the game the have the ability to apply enchantments themselves, regardless of class, in response to what is thrown at them in the game. SO, say a fighter gets a +1 sword and early in the campaign they are facing a lot of undead so they make a crafting check and put a holy enchantment on the sword. Then later the campaign turns and the fighter has to face down some dragons instead so they put Bane on the sword and apply it specifically against dragons. Now we have a +1 holy dragonbane longsword...
This is basically what I suggested at the start of the thread. I got told off for being off topic :P
We went the opposite direction in my game. Crafting is all run by a single feat, craft magic item, but the cost of crafting is increased to 75% of item value. You can take specialized feats such as brew potion or craft wondrous item to reduce the cost to the normal 50%.
No problems so far, though we have a few other house rules in play (50% of the value of any sold item becomes non-combat wealth used for things other than gear upgrades for instance) that might also contribute.
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I don't need for the rules to allow non-casters to make potions or wondrous items to be satisfied.
I do think a martial class should be able to make arms and armor if they take the feat.
Even the way these things are created and imbued is different from other magic items. I don't think it would take much change to say these items are magic by material and craft in a way that is different than a potion, wand, ring, etc...
But I do think what we have now is one side of the coin (Casters) can make all of the primary elements of their class, as well as the elements of others with the less investment than a martial can craft their own.
I am fine if they can only craft a weapon they have skills at crafting in, as that makes thematic sense, but there is enough history and trope of the item forged by such and such smith being ubersword that it need not be the domain of casters to make great weapons and armors.
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Craftsman generally pick one type of skill and that is the one they perfect.
Then why is the same not true of Craft Magic Arms & Armor in general? Why can the ancient genius dwarven smithy never learn to craft magic swords and magic bows, but the fifth-level wizard can learn to craft magic swords, bows, shields, and armor with one feat?
And fighters generally don't have the skill ranks to spare to do all three or even two of the above.
"It doesn't matter that we're screwing over fighters here because we're already screwing over fighters so it balances out!"
K.
At the end of the day an RPG is a game and every player should get to participate at all times. If the wizards and clerics can help kill monsters and find traps the fighters and rogues should be able to contribute to the making of magic items.
If you were playing Monopoly and the race car couldn't buy property it would seem like a fairly odd and unnecessary rule. Because the rogue and fighter haven't studied magic they shouldn't get to make cool items might make sense internally but as far as gameplay goes I think it's counter productive. If non magic items had more feature to distinguish themselves other than masterwork or not and could be created at a reasonable (not realistic mind you) rate without spells it would make for better balance and fun even if the casters would benefit too.
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@LazerX - Except fabricate and masterwork transformation....
@Khrysaor - Weapons and Armor are already crafted under different rules than other magic items. Simply making that subset the domain of everyone rather than just casters, and leaving the rest to caster is an easy adjustment that makes sense.
You can have the "magic" armors require casters, but the "Special Abilities" should be open for anyone who takes craft magic arms and armor with the skill level being the caster level.
That seems like an easy adjustment that makes a lot of sense.
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A wizard who puts one point into a Craft skill can autopass just about any check by taking 10, and they have plenty of skill points to spare. And considering how bloody slow mundane crafting is, the wizard with Fabricate is the only party member who has a viable alternative to buying the mundane items off the shelves.
(Not to mention that the price of the enhancements is so much greater than the price of the mundane base item that the wizard wouldn't be particularly hurt by spending 300gp on the original item anyhow.)
Fabricate is a 5th level spell and masterwork transformation is a 2nd level spell. If you're arguing any number of skill ranks, even 20 ranks, should be on par with a spell requiring a 9th level wizard to cast a 5th and 2nd level spell, you have outrageous expectations.
Yeah I hate it when non-wizards are allowed to do things too.
Lv. 10 Rogue takes master craftsman and craft magic arms and armor.
Profession Blacksmith to understand the wonders of metal to imbue into weapons and armor. Enchants his scimitar and mithral chain shirt.
10 ranks + 3 class + 2 feat + 2 tools + 1 stat (+1 trait) = +18(19)Lv. 10 Cleric takes skill focus Spellcraft and craft magic arms and armor.
10 ranks + 3 class +6 feat +1 stat (+1 trait) = +20(21)
No skill focus and the cleric is down to +14(15)
I like how we ignore here that Profession Blacksmith already spent one feat more than the cleric, that Profession Blacksmith has to meet higher DC's because only the cleric gets to meet the spell requirements, that Profession Blacksmith can only make a subset of the items that the cleric can (and that only the cleric can expand their options even further), and that you arbitrarily handed Profession Blacksmith a masterwork tool but didn't do so for the cleric.
Basically what I'm saying is I like how these numbers are basically completely false in every conceivable way.
Amen
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A few thoughts...
* One of the annoying things about item creation is that caster-crafters have something valuable to do in downtime; the game system guarantees this. Anyone without crafting feats could have something useful to do in downtime, but that depends on the campaign. Maybe while the wizard is a-crafting, the rogue is dipping his toes in the politics of the thieves' guild, and the fighter is politicking with the city militia. The difference is that those things don't have mechanical benefits built into the game system, and they're not guaranteed to be available as a pastime.
* The mundane craft system is depressing. It's annoying that spells like Fabricate are the only way to get bigger things done. That should be dealt with separately. Clearly, basing the time to make something on the GP cost isn't working out.
* I understand the classic image of the blacksmith imbuing his work with magic because he's just that good. But on the other hand, PF is a much more high-magic game than the literary tradition of the master blacksmith. In PF, that master blacksmith might be a wizard that took CMAA. Blacksmiths are occasionally portrayed as rather more "in the know" than ordinary medieval peasants - why wouldn't they be wizards in a more high-fantasy game?
* Meanwhile, do wizards actually take CMAA so often? CWI, I can see that happening. CWand, maybe, particularly if you heavily use an improved familiar to UMD them. But wizards have very little use for all the magic arms and armor to be created, so it's rather an annoying feat to take. Frankly, I'd expect clerics to be the ones taking it; they have more use for the items, and have most of the needed spells.
* A big theme seems to be that fighters should be able to make magic gear themselves. Every class should be self-reliant. I disagree with that. The game isn't meant to be played solo; casters do poorly without a martial meat shield/killing machine; martials do poorly with caster support.
* That said, the situation is rather one-sided; martials rely on casters to make magic items which they basically need because of CR/WBL/Big Six phenomenon. So while the dependency during uptime adventuring is reciprocal, it's not during downtime. That's annoying.
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A non caster drinks a potion.
A non caster wears an item that allows them to teleport.
A non caster wears an item to not sleep.
Because magic items exist and are sold.
If you have no actual point, why do you continue in the thread? You want a disparity, and you will find a way to perpetuate in your game, we get it.
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Hey, how about this?
Let's start with the concept of distinctions: feat-like training that fills a role similar to Big Six items, which you gain at the cost of reduced WBL.
Let's take that idea a step further. You can get this Training at the cost of money; but you need a trainer. You can actually train yourself, if you have the correct Training Feat. Those resemble item creation feats, but don't require magic. Providing training through the feat costs only half as much as buying it from an NPC...
So basically, you can earn the static bonuses from Big Six items through training, and fighters can learn to provide this training. This gives them something to do in downtime just like the caster.
The more you reinforce any class's ability to do something they cant naturally do independently the more you reinforce no dependency at all.
If my mage had full BAB and huge hit dice and could wear +5 fullplate while making a ranged flurry sneak attacking without penalty I'd flush any non healing class down the toilet. Nobody would argue this suggestion is broken and stupid. But somehow your suggestions are totally valid. The point is melee classes have their own baliwick and trying to infringe upon someone else'sforté is invalidating the class within the system.
Yes your desire to play a non caster who feels like 'the mage's meat shield' may over time have bled over into your actual brain instead of just your characters brain.
I'm not sure 4 wizards with a 25 point buy could survive an AP. If the wizard in your party is being a selfish b'astrid then let a few baddies get past ya to remind him why you're here and why you need the best weapons and armor in the business right now for cheap because man them hordes of evil wont stop themselves from making mage tofu.
Somebody's gotta play the bruiser and if you don't want it to be you then it doesnt have to be. But if its what you chose then just focus on what you're good at and stop trying to put your peanut butter in everyone elses chocolate.
To quote the movie 'Pleasantville'
You dont always get to like what you do. Sometimes you just have to do it anyway.
Why?
So people can have their HAMBURGERS!
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@Khrysaor- You can have an opinion. You just aren't adding anything productive. You clearly have no interest in having a system that allows anyone other than casters to succeed.
Great. Have fun with that.
@Vincent - Yet you don't want dependency for caster classes. Your caster can summon a meatshield, or just make one.
The issue is the wizard (and casters in general) can make everything they need, should they choose to invest. In addition, for some unclear reason, they are also the source for everyone else, despite the classic tropes of great warriors who make their own weapons (not to mention legendary weapons strangely made by weasponsmiths rather than men in cloaks.)
So far the two of you seem intent on the status quo, which makes me wonder why you are in a homebrew thread.
I want to argue that bending adamantium should be a lot easier with magic than with a hammer but its never really been the point. Its clear who just want fighters to be able to do a casters job. As a wizard and spellcrafter I'm happy to make you 'shallowsouls table of antimagic which he games at' and you can knock yourself out. Once it's made I cant cast a dang thing until I get it out of my shop so you can expect its delivery to be of my highest priority.
Thank you for shopping at Takeda's house of wondrous items. Come again.
The reason you think a wizard can just bring forth meat shields ad nauseum ad infinitum probably stems from the fact that your campaign days are usually 15 minutes of maybe one combat or two. If theres no opportunity for meatshield attrition in your campaign then I suggest taking it up with your gm, because that's who's making your role obsolete. I know a ton of casters that dont want to play summoners and I know a ton of casters that would love to stop wasting valuable gold purchasing summoning scrolls. They can get away with such things if the meatshield is getting the job done.
Even then eventually a caster runs out of spells and when they do there's going to be a need for a non summoned bruiser to make sure they stay safe. Or someone around to keep him in once piece while he's sleeping. But if these issues never come up in your campaign then you're totally right. Perhaps your gm should try a little harder to make the mundane roles more necessary. Doesnt mean crafting is broken.
So if you want to fix whats broken then the fact that mundane people dont have enough importance in your campaigns might be a better place to look.
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I want to argue that bending adamantium should be a lot easier with magic than with a hammer but its never really been the point. Its clear who just want fighters to be able to do a casters job. As a wizard and spellcrafter I'm happy to make you 'shallowsouls table of antimagic which he games at' and you can knock yourself out. Once it's made I cant cast a dang thing until I get it out of my shop so you can expect its delivery to be of my highest priority.
Thank you for shopping at Takeda's house of wondrous items. Come again.
It's clear that you want a caster to do all of the jobs and for non-casters to stay on the sides.
And again, I ask why you are trolling the homebrew forums if you only want the status quo?
Perhaps you should just go hang out in shallowsouls thread.
No you're totally right. Fighters making magic items is totally not wrongbadfun. I'm just saying that maybe its not the real problem. Like Dirk Gently I tend to tackle problems 'wholistically' [sic]
Sometimes in order to solve the question of 'why cant I have scooby snacks too'
You first have to answer the question 'why do I want scooby snacks in the first place'
If your answer is 'I just want to punch and stab things but the GM and the wizard are making it so that theres no point in me punching and stabbing things' then thats a very important point which should be examinined.
In point of fact I adamantly do not want casters to sit on the sidelines and the fact that you presume that I do shows that someone at your table has fueled that fire. I am not at your table. That person isn't me and I rebuke your attempt to label me as such.
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I've already provided balanced game theory, as have others, only to have you say things like, "some people just don't get it" and "you don't provide anything productive".
Actually you haven't. Pretty much all of your posts were returned to you with rules citations that showed your assumptions of what is and is not possible were incorrect.
You actually have been advocating unbalanced game theory, as in "Casters are supposed to be better."
So again, I ask why if you want the status quo you are in a homebrew forum?
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No you're totally right. Fighters making magic items is totally not wrongbadfun. I'm just saying that maybe its not the real problem. Like Dirk Gently I tend to tackle problems 'wholistically' [sic]
Reinventing the magic item rules isn't happening in this version. Shallow can shout into the wind in his thread.
What I intended with the thread was to see if there were tweeks toward a less imperfect, imperfect system.
I don't want non-casters brewing potions, making wands, or even magic items. I do think it is silly and counter to the traditional narrative for them to not be able to make viable weapons and armor.
That is a correctable problem in the current problematic system.
Would I be out of line to suggest a custom magic item called 'enchanted smithing tools' that allow you to apply your normal crafting skills to non mundane weapons and armor?
Not the first time I've heard of a 'cosmic forge'
Mystic kuznya from palladium...
There's tons of precedent for that.
If we both agree that wholesale making mundane crafters suddenly able to make magic items isnt fair and balanced then I think a magic crafter making enchanted tools for you coupled with your smith skill and master craftsman should get you closer to what you're looking for without stealing someone elses scooby snacks.
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Would it not be a bit ironic that they would need a magic item they can't craft to craft the items :)
I think the trope of the warrior smith is something lacking without substantial investment. It is practically what the dwarven race is made of, if you think about it.
If you just make craft magic arms and armor open to all, and make the caster level based off of skills that would be fine with me. I don't need them to craft all weapons, just the ones they are willing to invest skils points (or skill focus...) in.
Separately, I also think Magic Items needs to be divided up a bit simply because it is too much for one feat, IMHO.
And then the take 10 thing just irks me from the metagame aspect, particularly when cursed items as a result of failure are supposed to be part of the game.
Once you've taken smithing and master crafts you've invested feats like a mage.
I can see enchanted smithing tools working adamantium faster than mundane crafting so suddenly you're making this faster than you were. Maybe not the 'one hour and its done' as fast as a fabricate and make masterwork but magic should still be faster.
As a gm I'd be all about letting ya get halfway to what wizards do. Mage should always have an easier time crafting magic than a full bab bruiser, and getting those enchanted tools would have to have been made by a full crafter in the first place so there's still this 'spellcraft gateway' to getting what you want,
But with smithing and leatherwork and master craft and enchanted tools I can see that being the equivalent of the craft arms and armor and quite a few of the wondrous items like boots and belts... Still gotta pay the crafting cost for the magic item or we're in wackyland but seems fair and balanced without going overboard.
If it were my houserule and you wanted more than that I'd say you were pushin it, but I'd be willing to go at least this far. I personally like the irony that you need a spellcrafter to make your enchanted tools for you. In this instance you prove you're willing to give a little to get a lot.
Frankly if this comparison was the only reason people said magic item crafting was broken I'd love giving bruisers the enchanted forge. They could join in the forging fun during their downtime and it would mean i dont have to spend my spells or feats on gearing him up and I wouldnt have to feel guilty about spending my crafting time on me instead of him.
For me that's giving a little (having to make him enchanted tools) and getting a lot (not having to spend my own downtime making his arms and armor at least)
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Once you've taken smithing and master crafts you've invested feats like a mage.
I can see enchanted smithing tools working adamantium faster than mundane crafting so suddenly you're making this faster than you were. Maybe not the 'one hour and its done' as fast as a fabricate and make masterwork but magic should still be faster.As a gm I'd be all about letting ya get halfway to what wizards do. Mage should always have an easier time crafting magic than a full bab bruiser, and getting those enchanted tools would have to have been made by a full crafter in the first place so there's still this 'spellcraft gateway' to getting what you want,
But with smithing and leatherwork and master craft and enchanted tools I can see that being the equivalent of the craft arms and armor and quite a few of the wondrous items like boots and belts... Still gotta pay the crafting cost for the magic item or we're in wackyland but seems fair and balanced without going overboard.
If it were my houserule and you wanted more than that I'd say you were pushin it, but I'd be willing to go at least this far. I personally like the irony that you need a spellcrafter to make your enchanted tools for you. In this instance you prove you're willing to give a little to get a lot.
Part of the problem is the master craftsman feat itself.
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
It only works on one craft or profession. So you can smith or tanner, but not both. And even if you could, the skill investment would be problematic.
And on top of that you still need another feat.
If I were to re-write it I would remove the "Craft Wondrous Items" portion, as that really is the domain of casters, and simply have all classes qualify for Craft Arms and Armor under the criteria that you can substitute skill ranks for caster level.
Non-specialized arms and armor don't require spells, so you need no adjustment there. Flavor adjustment would come from the special qualities coming in the manufacturing process and/or materials and not from a specific spell...which is pretty much how it works now.
I have no objection to magic items from spells being the domain of those who can cast spells. But the arms and armor are specifically spell based.
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Frankly if this comparison was the only reason people said magic item crafting was broken I'd love giving bruisers the enchanted forge. They could join in the forging fun during their downtime and it would mean i dont have to spend my spells or feats on gearing him up and I wouldnt have to feel guilty about spending my crafting time on me instead of him.
For me that's giving a little (having to make him enchanted tools) and getting a lot (not having to spend my own downtime making his arms and armor at least)
And this is the thing (for that portion). If your entire life is based on being the penultimate warrior, why shouldn't I be improving my tools during my downtime?
I don't want to step on the casters toes, I just want the martial to be working toward perfection during their downtime as well if they choose.
So just for the sake of clarity,
Khrysaor believes that Ciretose has imagined a fantasy trope that is not legitimate because it isn't supported by the rules... which is why you are talking about it in homebrew...
Vincent believes that mundane crafters should be able to make some magic items, but be worse at it because magic item crafting isn't magic if the person doing the hocus pocus doesn't have bad base attack progression.
And Ciretose believes that crafting should fit his more inclusive, but still exclusionist ideal...?
Here is a really crazy idea. What if that guy who has ridiculous amounts of craft skill, you know that guy who has a skill rating high enough to make the gods weep at the quality of his apparent craft, actually learned every nuance and gesture related to making magical items... without ever looking at a spell book. We are talking about a pseudo medieval culture where learning was accomplished largely by doing. An artificer would train an apprentice, not an adventuring wizard. There is no legitimate balance issue when your talking about something that sits outside of class mechanics entirely.
Your all arguing about differing types of fantasy. None of your beliefs are more or less valid, but there is absolutely no balance factor here whatsoever... None.
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I think Vincent and I are fairly close to the same page on the crafting martial class issues, he just thought we weren't.
I think Khrysaor is unaware of the Master Craftsman feat, or at least hasn't looked thoroughly at the mechanics.
I think Trogdar wanted to re-write the whole system, which was a bridge to far for this discussion.
So lets see. If the skill you're using to craft has as many ranks in it as your level then that skill is the same as spellcraft in that it cant be a higher rank than your level.
Its true the casters will have it maxed out by default. both fighters and mages can take a skillfocus feat so thats not broken and fighters have plenty of feats to throw around.
Im not clear why taking smith and tanner would be a problem. The more you want to make the more you want to invest sounds pretty balance to me, and I'd be more than willing to say you could make any wonderous item in which those two skills apply simply by having master craft and the enchanted tools.
So as a level 5 bruiser you're looking at 2 skills, one feat.
Your craft check could be 5 ranks of crafting,2 masterwork tools, (3 skillfocus would be a heavier investment if you wanted to do both weapons/armor and leathery wondrous items) so really your rolls would only be shorter than a magecrafter by what...
The fact that craft and spellcraft are int so as a bruiser you probably lose any int bonus we'll tackle that in a minute...A mage could give you crafters fortune (no reason to give those points to you for free since he has to get that spell and use it on himself in the first place even to get it for him) so the only deficit you might have is you'll never have the arcane builder discovery which is 4 points... might not have the crafters fortune if you don't like wizards helping you out, and at least needed one in the first place to get your tools.
For that int bonus problem.. If the enchanted tools gave the +4 or so bonus to crafting that a wizards int would give him, then really you're in the ballpark. A mage can fire off a crafters fortune at you so you're still better off with a mage around, but can still do stuff without him if you have to... The less involved the mage is the worse off you are, but the more he helps the more you can do... Not stealing his thunder but borrowing it, so to speak...
With a +4 or so on enchanted tools you're not wasting MAD on INT, so you're looking at maybe a lack of crafterfortune and lack of arcane builder for a 7 point deficit from your typical mage crafter. You'd still get the 5 penalty for not having a prerequisite spell. no reason to take away or mitigate a penalty that even a mage needs.
The way I read it after you have master craft you still have to take the craft arms and armor or wondrous item feats after that? I agree that's getting a little crazy. I'd be willing to go so far as to say that enchanted hammer that gives you a +4 craft bonus also turns a smith craft skill into an arms/armor skill and a tanner skill into a wondrous item skill with regards to any predominantly leather item though once you lose your enchanted tools they're back to mundane skills.
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Edit:@Vincent - Which is why I'm saying just make craft arms and armor available across the boards with the modifications for substituting skills currently under master craftsman.
Now my archer fighter can make arrows if he invests seriously in fletching or some such for a single feat rather than two feats plus an extra feat for each other thing they want to craft.
Which is the issue with master craftsman, as you have to take it separately for each skill or profession on top of the skill investment.
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@Khrysaor - Your examples...
Your cleric doesn't need skill focus, you threw that on to make the feats match.
But they don't.
It is two feats, master craftsman and the crafting feat. With that you can still only craft within one skill or profession. Smithing is fairly broad, but you aren't getting arrows, leather, wood, etc...
The casters are all taking spellcraft, regardless. It is what they use to identify spells, magic items.
You can only use the smithing profession for smithing. Period, full stop.
You had to pick a class that gets 8 skill points a level and they STILL don't compare. Even your cherry picked example fails.
Thank you for proving my case for me.
So lets see. Your enchanted tools gives you a crafting bonus equal to your highest other attribute bonus. That'll keep up with SAD casters any old day... They turn smithing into arms and armor or tanning into a limited wondrous item feat.
Say we're trying for a vorpal sword...
CR28+10 since you wont have the spells
As a noob 5th level crafter you'll have the 5 from your craft skill, 4 or 5 from your attribute/enchanted tools plus an additional 2 because the enchanted tools had to be masterwork in the first place to even BE enchanted by the mage...
If you took skillcraft feat thats 3, and if you and your mage are still on good terms you'll get that crafters fortune for 5... We're still only at a maximum roll of 35 and thats not going to get us a vorpal sword. And thats fine. We dont want 5th level brutes making vorpal swords...
If you are still on good terms with your mage he could throw that crafters fortune at you.
d20+5+5+2+3+5? Would get you a fleeting chance but still. Level 5 non crafter getting a vorpal sword even being possible? I think we're getting somewhere...