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In the past I have been using Command Undead Spell thinking it worked like the exact same thing as the Command Undead feat. However, upon closer inspection the feat says it works like the Control Undead spell.
In the past, GMs have let me work my Commanded (spell version) like pets, but tonight I had one that made it to where I really couldn't even use them because they worked like a glitched out computer program. When I went to look up the rules after the game I noticed this Command Undead feat that clerics all use is not the same as the Command Undead spell.
So can someone please clarify how the undead are supposed to behave with the spell? Can I still tell them to walk up to someone and attack them? Is this too complicated? Do those words extend beyond what is allowed to talk for free? Do they automatically start attacking my party again if on of them becomes the next closest target when they are in attack mode?
I searched the boards and read threads for about 30 minutes, but I didn't find anything that looked remotely authoritative.
To preempt any house rule suggestion, I am asking for PFS games.
Was it intelligent undead?
The feat says they obey you like the Spell but the feat certainly has extra mechanics.
Spell: It is only going to be one undead.
If intelligent, your command requires an opposed Charisma check for commands it wouldn't normally do.
Caster: "Vampire, attack that city guard."
Vampire: "Ok man, I am on it." *attacks city guard.*
Caster: "Vampire, kill your best friend and pet dire wolf." *Fail Charisma check*
Vampire: *Pass Charisma check* "Um, no!"
Unintelligent undead don't get said check and should obey your simple commands. Kill, guard, etc but not "Patrol in a loop every two hours" "Do my homework." "Dance a jig."
Yeah it has only been unintelligent undead up to this point. My real issue is, can I get mindless undead to attack who I want and only who I want with free action speech and this spell. It hasn't been a problem in the past, but also in the past I think we were all operating under the assumption that I had the same measure of control as every baddy that brings undead to the battlefield.
Today, the spell didn't allow my target to hit a single foe and it even hit one of my allies after I claimed it. My party member then ended up attacking it and breaking the spell.......but that is a separate issue all together.
Sounds like you had a dick GM today.
Unintelligent undead can be controlled pretty much like robots when under the effects of a command undead spell, provided that you use simple enough commands.
And I think there is where the issue lies. What is the simple enough command? The example text says "such as (and gives a list of one word commands)". Can I, do I need to, spell out a series of one word commands to make them useful? Or is it enough to just say "attack that" and as soon as that target drops be able to give it a new command without it reverting to kill everything mode?
most of the examples use two words... but yes... "kill him/her" while pointing at a specific person should cause the undead to attack that person until he or she is dead, then stand there and wait for other orders... of course if you said "Fight" then the skeleton or zombie would probably just attack who ever was closest to it.
I don't think the 'kill anything mode' makes sense when using the spell.
The mindless undead is capable of easily seeing who your apparent allies is (since they cannot attack it). As such it should be quite clear, who it is not supposed to attack.
Given that it has no free will, in situations where it doesn't have any commands, it should be standing around doing nothing.
It should be possible to give a new command, whenever you like.
They are two word commands.......I must be exhausted :)
I just remembered the one that says "fight" when I wrote that.
I don't think the 'kill anything mode' makes sense when using the spell.
The mindless undead is capable of easily seeing who your apparent allies is (since they cannot attack it). As such it should be quite clear, who it is not supposed to attack.
Given that it has no free will, in situations where it doesn't have any commands, it should be standing around doing nothing.
It should be possible to give a new command, whenever you like.
That's how we have always done it in past too, mindless commanded undead do nothing unless told. But since I was reading the feat/spell transparency wrong I thought it worth giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt to try and find out if I had always been wrong.
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I am the "dick GM" in question.
The specific circumstance here was one skeleton in a room of skeletons was commanded to attack another specific skeleton. Before any of the skeletons took an action, the intended target was destroyed. I rules that the default command/instructions were to be carried out, given the PC's command didn't conflict with them, which I believe is fair. If the default action for a commanded mindless undead is to do absolutely nothing unless commanded, but I misunderstood how the spells works.
After this, the player wanted to give the skeleton much more complicated commands, which I ruled it could not properly understand. After a brief discussion, we worked out the "few words" bit and it went smoothly from there.
Until another PC killed his skeleton, but that's a different discussion.
You would be AMAZED at how versatile and complicated you can get with unintelligent undead and constructs. They can respond to any visual stimulus (or audible stimulus) and can respond very well to unambiguous commands of any sort.
"Kill anyone wearing a red hat who enters this room." would cause them to, indeed, chase, and kill, anyone they perceive wearing a red hat who walks into the room. Their LACK of intelligence means you don't have to define anything specifically for them.
"Wave at any man you see." is a valid command. Note that this unintelligent undead breaks free from its control if attacked, but is essentially helpless for a single attack if attacked. While it waves.
"Dance a jig." is perfectly reasonable. It won't be very GOOD, but it can certainly dance a jig. By folklore, really, it should be able to dance dem bones super goodly.
"Brace your spears against charging foes." is just -fine- as a -free- action on your turn as a command to ALL your skeletal minions, and they all undertake those orders immediately.
"Follow me and kill anything that attacks me or these allies." Is a valid command (outside of combat!) and basically teaches your undead 'pets' the 'defend' animal trick.
"Wait for that thing to get close, then stab it." causes your minions to ready an action to strike at a Quickling skirmisher, or harpy dive-bomber, though it takes a move action to get them to ready attacks.
You can set up fairly complicated if-then-or chains in advance if the mindless undead are your minions for an extended period of time (such as under the command undead spell or being created by you through animate dead), so long as you don't void the chain completely by becoming too complex. Anything explainable in twenty five words or less is usually -plenty- specific and simple enough for them to carry out without issues. Basically, if the GM can understand it, so can your idiot zombies. Just don't order your minions to 'decimate' your foes. Then they only kill one in ten.
For the sake of this, I would be happy with an "attack our enemies and not us".
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For the sake of this, I would be happy with an "attack our enemies and not us".
In my opinion, an unintelligent undead cannot determine who "our enemies" are without further clarification. "Not us" is easy; the undead can identify the caster and his allies. Enemies aren't as obvious.
"Attack anything that attacks us" will work.
"Attack anything we attack" will also work.
But "attack our enemies", to me, is the same as "determine who our enemies are" which a skeleton just can't do on it's own.
For future reference, since commanding the undead isn't really an action (though I'd rule just for ease of play you may only command/change orders on your turn), I'd allow you to specify any number of specific valid targets, and if you do so, a mindless undead will attack the closest, and once down will move to the next closest, etc.
I'd also recommend informing the rest of the table you have that spell and intend to use it if the opportunity presents itself, especially if there is a cleric of kill all undead in the group.
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Summoned monsters come into being WITHOUT speaking the language of the summoner, and automatically attack your enemies. Period. There is no communication required. This 'magical sense' applies to undead 'pets' as well. Remember, this is DnD, "a wizard did it".
The skeleton has an intelligence of -. It doesn't have to be explained what words are to understand what the difference between a man and a woman is. And yes, giving commands to undead is a MOVE action. Only enacting commands you have previously given or very simple commands 'kill' and so on are free actions. You can, by RAW, get away with about six words in a round as a free action. Anything like detailed instruction (and this includes shouting instructions to a five foot square for your blind archer friend!) is a move action.
If a man in the back is wearing a robe and casts a spell, you can also say 'attack the wizard' and the intent of the command follows through just fine. Remember that the PCs aren't speaking english either... 'that wizard over there' could be different from 'my friend the wizard' in the Common Tongue. Don't be pedantic, it makes you a 'dick gm'.
And this is coming from a guy who makes his PCs track ammo and rations and carrying capacity.
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Summoned monsters come into being WITHOUT speaking the language of the summoner, and automatically attack your enemies. Period. There is no communication required. This 'magical sense' applies to undead 'pets' as well. Remember, this is DnD, "a wizard did it".
I absolutely agree, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the undead equivalent of Charm Person. Command Undead is not a "create mindless undead pet." All it lets you do is give a simple command. It imparts no knowledge to the undead, other than who your "apparent allies" are. If you command a skeleton to "attack the sorcerer" or "kill Jimmy" it won't know who you are indicating unless you also provide that information somehow.
ALSO please remember that the character (especially if they're a necromancer!) likely has an intelligence much higher than the player, and you should grade a bit gently when it comes to commands like that.
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Command Undead is not a "create mindless undead pet."
Yes it is. It's 'take control of mindless undead minion for number of days equal to your caster level with no saving throw'. It in no way changes the way the undead critter responds to commands given to it.
Happily, I don't have to play in your game, but you're being unneccesarily pedantic when it comes to this. Hopefully your campain world isn't littered with embittered Whispering Way cultists who have hung themselves in frustration.
By the same token, 'it imparts no knowledge' is incorrect. Mindless undead have no knowledge. They have no grey matter at all. They have no intelligence score. Do you have to explain to your animated rope what 'words' are before you can explain to it how to 'tie' and 'untie' knots?
Remember, it's Pathfinder, "A wizard did it" is an amply sufficient explanation.
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ALSO please remember that the character (especially if they're a necromancer!) likely has an intelligence much higher than the player, and you should grade a bit gently when it comes to commands like that.
I do. I'd rather not receive an implication that I don't, especially from someone who wasn't there.
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Command Undead is not a "create mindless undead pet."
Yes it is. It's 'take control of mindless undead minion for number of days equal to your caster level with no saving throw'. It in no way changes the way the undead critter responds to commands given to it.
"When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on."
The commands are fine, if they are basic commands. But Command Undead still doesn't allow the creature to use knowledge and senses it doesn't already possess.
Happily, I don't have to play in your game, but you're being unneccesarily pedantic when it comes to this. Hopefully your campain world isn't littered with embittered Whispering Way cultists who have hung themselves in frustration.
By the same token, 'it imparts no knowledge' is incorrect. Mindless undead have no knowledge. They have no grey matter at all. They have no intelligence score. Do you have to explain to your animated rope what 'words' are before you can explain to it how to 'tie' and 'untie' knots?
Remember, it's Pathfinder, "A wizard did it" is an amply sufficient explanation.
"A wizard did it" is not an explimation. It's a dodge or a crutch at best. Would be okay if someone used Command Undead to command their skeleton to "attack the invisible guy" or "take away the wizard's spellbook"?
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Notice how this never happens when a group of Good aligned adventurers are trotting through an Evil Cleric's Temple and the BBeG Cleric has a hard time getting his undead minions to attack the Good aligned adventurers?
DM> Ok.. you all enter the crypt where you see an Evil Cleric fuming at a CORe Rulebook because he can't get his undead minions to attack formation at the same time... Roll for Initiative .. GRRR
Party>Woohoo!!! The rules finally work for us!!!!
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Summoned monsters come into being WITHOUT speaking the language of the summoner, and automatically attack your enemies. Period. There is no communication required.
This is probably not the best parallel example, since most summoned monsters are intelligent. Perhaps a better example would be summon swarm, which are unintelligent. Summoned swarms will attack the nearest target, including allies and the caster. Likewise, though the commanded skeleton may automatically recognize that the caster is its ally, it does not automatically know that the caster's allies are its allies. It doesn't read your mind.
@Dust Raven
I read through this a couple of times and really am trying to keep very neutral language, but what you are saying here is a far cry from what happened.
I wasn't asking for anything complicated. I wanted them to attack only our enemies and not us. I went through several different types of wording over the course of a couple of minutes until I finally found one you liked. You said "It <was> mindless, therefore it operates like a line of computer programming, if you mess up any little detail the program doesn't work." "It <didn't> know what an undead <was>" when I told it to only attack undead. And "<I> am a sorcerer (14 int) and not a necromancer, just because I have the same tools doesn't mean I know how to use them."
@Nightwish
It must know your allies, because if attacked by your allies it ends the spell. It makes perfect sense if it knows who your allies are, but is quite senseless otherwise.
The default behavior of a controlled mindless creature would not be to revert "kill everything" mode until the end of the control spell or ability; it would execute its current action and then stand passively awaiting further instruction.
To use the computer program example: The undead would be a program, the command would be the action to be taken at that stage of the program, and the target to be attacked would be a variable; if that variable were removed from the program, the program would not select another variable at random - it would wait for further input.
A character with a feat should be assumed to know how to use the feat, or he wouldn't have that feat; coupled with an INT of 14, having the player generally relay his or her intent should be enough to achieve the desired goal, especially when that intent can be expressed within the realm of 'simple commands' ("Attack those skeletons!")
I have to agree that rulings offered seem pedantic and intentionally obtuse. If we were dealing with the wording for a Wish I might see getting this granular, but in such a simple situation demanding such detail seems to reflect a deliberate animus.
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@Dust Raven
I read through this a couple of times and really am trying to keep very neutral language, but what you are saying here is a far cry from what happened.I wasn't asking for anything complicated. I wanted them to attack only our enemies and not us. I went through several different types of wording over the course of a couple of minutes until I finally found one you liked. You said "It <was> mindless, therefore it operates like a line of computer programming, if you mess up any little detail the program doesn't work." "It <didn't> know what an undead <was>" when I told it to only attack undead. And "<I> am a sorcerer (14 int) and not a necromancer, just because I have the same tools doesn't mean I know how to use them."
And we worked it out, problem solved. I hope. I'm still never going to allow a player to play a commanded undead like a 2nd PC though, which is what you were asking for.
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Unless I've got this all wrong and a 2nd level spell actually does hand the player a 2nd PC for the duration. I've been assuming, hopefully correctly, that Command Undead provides something less than this, but I'm getting an unexpected amount of push back for it.
Certainly it's possible to give a commanded undead instructions it can't follow due to not being able to distinguish/identify something. I'm absolutely certain of this. And outside an issue with a specific circumstance concerning the OP, that's the only point I've been trying to make.
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The default behavior of a controlled mindless creature would not be to revert "kill everything" mode until the end of the control spell or ability; it would execute its current action and then stand passively awaiting further instruction.
This is possibly true. It's certainly how it works with constructs, though constructs tend not to spontaneously self generate, mindless or otherwise.
The mindless undead can be given instructions as a free action using speech and otherwise acts as friendly. I would have given the PC a lot of latitude - more so than handle animal for instance. Multiple instrucitons could be delivered sequentially as free actions.
@DustRaven: - In your campaign, do NPC BBEG type clerics (and similar) get set upon by their own undead or otherwise unintelligent minions, or do the undead/unintelligent minions attack the cleric's allies or are they always focused on attacking the PC party.
In my own campaign, I've had an evil cleric be more worried about the consequences of losing control over a wraith (who had wraith spawn) than over the dangers the party might pose.
Unless I've got this all wrong and a 2nd level spell actually does hand the player a 2nd PC for the duration. I've been assuming, hopefully correctly, that Command Undead provides something less than this, but I'm getting an unexpected amount of push back for it.
Certainly it's possible to give a commanded undead instructions it can't follow due to not being able to distinguish/identify something. I'm absolutely certain of this. And outside an issue with a specific circumstance concerning the OP, that's the only point I've been trying to make.
I think the impetus driving the rest of the problems is not allowing the simple commands "move here" or "attack that" as a free action when it is time for the creature to move. It is having to predict what the field will look like and set up lines of programming (with language restrictions) that turned it into a mess. I think the reason other DMs have just handed me the stat sheet and had me control it is because if those are really the only two actions I want to do (and RAW that level of speech can happen at any moment), it makes less work for everyone to just cut out the middle man and have me track the math. I still have stats for previous undead minions written on the back of my current character sheet.
Speak
In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn't your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
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Unless I've got this all wrong and a 2nd level spell actually does hand the player a 2nd PC for the duration. I've been assuming, hopefully correctly, that Command Undead provides something less than this, but I'm getting an unexpected amount of push back for it.
I think there's a wide latitude of difference between being handed a second PC and allowing the player a sensible ally for a limited duration of time.
Certainly it's possible to give a commanded undead instructions it can't follow due to not being able to distinguish/identify something. I'm absolutely certain of this. And outside an issue with a specific circumstance concerning the OP, that's the only point I've been trying to make.
I think saying that a skeleton lacks the capacity to identify other skeletons is a bit limited. Example: A necromancer raises some skeletons and tells it to keep anyone but him from getting near the chest in his room. By game mechanics, all of those skeletons are a singular unit - typically defined as 'allies' - and anything else that approaches the chest would be an 'enemy'. If that were not the case, then when one of the skeletons staggered near the chest, his friends would rip him apart, which would basically make such uses of undead guards uncertain at best.
So making a statement like, "Defend my allies!" or "Attack our enemies!", based upon that standard game mechanic (which is present in numerous spells and effects) should be a valid simple command; by using Command Undead you are effectively switching the alliance of that undead, and at that point your party members are its 'allies' and the other undead are its 'enemies'.
As another note, Sitri is correct that he (?) should be able to issue simple verbal commands to an undead minion even if it isn't his turn, since speaking is a free action that can be taken outside of your normal turn. Trying to require that someone with a minion - even a mindless one - provide commands on his turn only, and then basically 'cancelling' the minion's action when the situation changes without allowing the commander to redirect seriously undermines the abilities of numerous spells and even classes.
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The best way to treat mindless undead is like a robot programmed to interpret speech commands. They understand the meanings of the words, and even how the words interact with each other to create meaning (up to a point). They then physically intact that meaning to the best of their ability, to the exclusion of all else, unless another command (or higher priority program) takes precedence.
They can be Programmed via simple commands to create rather complex logic pathways.
The absolute root of all this is the acceptance that the undead do, for some reason, recognize certain things without being told.
They know who their master is, and who the master's allies are. They know who the master's enemies are. They have rudimentary object recognition skills. The can recognize and employ tools and weapons. They can tell the difference between things that are living, dead and undead.
Those things, at a minimum, are what we have to assume their foundational understanding is. Without that, mindless undead cease to function as any kind of viable adversary.
With that foundation, undead under the control of an intelligent master can become Truly Terrifying
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The control undead spell allows you RAW as to command the undead verbally regardless of language, this seems reasonably clearly to mean they can understand your *intent* so long as it is in relation to relatively basic tasks. As per the command undead ability "they obey to the best of their ability", they don't seek to do *anything* but obey you, if a mindless, controlled undead cannot in any simple way obey a previous order it will at worst stand still and do nothing.
I think the biggest problem here is people are confusing the command undead ability (which grants power over undead as the 7th level spell, control undead) with the far, FAR weaker command undead spell (which is only level 2).
In regards to mindless undead:
Command undead ability (as control undead spell) - total control, undead understands your intent, obeys to best of ability, you or your allies attacking them does *NOT* break the control (nothing in the spell indicates it would do, whereas the level 2 spell specifically mentions this)
Command undead spell - only basic 2 word commands, an attack by your or allies breaks spell
If the player was using the clerical 'Command Undead' ability he should have had total, reasonable control up to 6 words as a free action with the undead understanding his general intent (the ability to recognise allies of the cleric could be argued, but given the 2nd level command undead spell indicates *it* allows for it, it seems a trifle silly to assume a 7th level spell wouldn't also allow this).
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@DustRaven: - In your campaign, do NPC BBEG type clerics (and similar) get set upon by their own undead or otherwise unintelligent minions, or do the undead/unintelligent minions attack the cleric's allies or are they always focused on attacking the PC party.
Sometimes, yes. It all depends on what the orders are. Many times I've had mindless undead with the orders of "attack and kill anyone not wearing an unholy symbol of [deity]" or similar, and ended up with a clever group of PCs who started wearing them, than sundering them off the bad guys during combat.
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The control undead spell allows you RAW as to command the undead verbally regardless of language, this seems reasonably clearly to mean they can understand your *intent* so long as it is in relation to relatively basic tasks. As per the command undead ability "they obey to the best of their ability", they don't seek to do *anything* but obey you, if a mindless, controlled undead cannot in any simple way obey a previous order it will at worst stand still and do nothing.
I think the biggest problem here is people are confusing the command undead ability (which grants power over undead as the 7th level spell, control undead) with the far, FAR weaker command undead spell (which is only level 2).
In regards to mindless undead:
Command undead ability (as control undead spell) - total control, undead understands your intent, obeys to best of ability, you or your allies attacking them does *NOT* break the control (nothing in the spell indicates it would do, whereas the level 2 spell specifically mentions this)
Command undead spell - only basic 2 word commands, an attack by your or allies breaks spell
If the player was using the clerical 'Command Undead' ability he should have had total, reasonable control up to 6 words as a free action with the undead understanding his general intent (the ability to recognise allies of the cleric could be argued, but given the 2nd level command undead spell indicates *it* allows for it, it seems a trifle silly to assume a 7th level spell wouldn't also allow this).
That may the root of the confusion here. The character cast Command Undead, the 2nd level sor/wiz spell. Simple commands, given on the character's turn (whether or not it's a free action/speaking or a move action/direct a spell I actually have no idea).
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I think saying that a skeleton lacks the capacity to identify other skeletons is a bit limited.
I agree, but that wasn't the command. The command was "attack only undead" and while I agree a skeleton can certainly identify another skeleton as a skeleton, it isn't going to be able to identify a ghost, or a ghast, or a vampire, or even another skeleton, as being undead (unless provided some some means of doing so). Sure, the caster may be able to do this, but Command Undead imparts no knowledge to the target, and there is no telepathic link.
So making a statement like, "Defend my allies!" or "Attack our enemies!", based upon that standard game mechanic (which is present in numerous spells and effects) should be a valid simple command; by using Command Undead you are effectively switching the alliance of that undead, and at that point your party members are its 'allies' and the other undead are its 'enemies'.
I absolutely agree, but that wasn't the command that was given. And if it was, we'd be having a different discussion as the skeleton would have turned to kill the tomb robbers the PC were about to question/capture.
As another note, Sitri is correct that he (?) should be able to issue simple verbal commands to an undead minion even if it isn't his turn, since speaking is a free action that can be taken outside of your normal turn. Trying to require that someone with a minion - even a mindless one - provide commands on his turn only, and then basically 'cancelling' the minion's action when the situation changes without allowing the commander to redirect seriously undermines the abilities of numerous spells and even classes.
This I disagree. To allow commands to be given when it's not the caster's turn allows the caster to say "attack the clerics of Zyphus... no not that one, the next one over... no to your right... yes that one... wait, circle around back to flank it!" I'd allow this kind of control with Control Undead or the cleric Feat, but not with the Command Undead spell.
This I disagree. To allow commands to be given when it's not the caster's turn allows the caster to say "attack the clerics of Zyphus... no not that one, the next one over... no to your right... yes that one... wait, circle around back to flank it!" I'd allow this kind of control with Control Undead or the cleric Feat,...
I think if Zyphus has a holy symbol, the skeleton should easily attack it since it is told to attacking the one with "insert holy symbol description"
But just saying attacking Clerics won't work.
The relevant passages from each spell:
You command them by voice and they understand you
you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on.
I think it's clear that Control Undead lets you communicate anything no matter how complicated, while Command Undead is limited to a couple words. The 7th level spell gives you the "programmed control" that allows conditionals and automatically conveys your intentions (because it understands you even if your wording is unclear.) The 2nd level spell merely allows you to make very basic commands, limited to a couple words.
On the subject of what kind of action it is to control them, the control is explicitly done via speech and speaking is a free action that can be performed on anyone's turn. Thus by RAW, it seems clear that you can change the skeleton's orders on another player's turn. There is no reason it would take a move action to control.
...Mindless undead absolutely can distinguish between the living and the undead. Uncontrolled skeletons and zombies default to attacking the living, but NOT EACH OTHER.
The assumption in past editions has been that all undead possess at least a crude version of the "lifesense" explicitly found in some undead, that lets them make this distinction in creatures they can see.
Let's not pretend I was trying to give out orders about battle formations, tactical height, called shots, sniping and the like, I was trying to get a commanded creature to attack enemies and not us. I think the heart of this is the desire to "not give the player another character". There was an end result being desired and the rules concerning the situation took a back seat to that desire. This is all well and good for home games, I make house rules when I run them too, but PFS is supposed to be more RAW.
Where does it it say or imply that commands for this spell are different than the normal rules for speech?
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Let's not pretend I was trying to give out orders about battle formations, tactical height, called shots, sniping and the like, I was trying to get a commanded creature to attack enemies and not us. I think the heart of this is the desire to "not give the player another character". There was an end result being desired and the rules concerning the situation took a back seat to that desire. This is all well and good for home games, I make house rules when I run them too, but PFS is supposed to be more RAW.
Where does it it say or imply that commands for this spell are different than the normal rules for speech?
Okay, I'm completely lost as to where you are coming from now. If the rules took a back seat to anyone's desire, it was your desire to treat Command Undead as Control Undead.
If all you want to argue here is that something could be said that could have got you want you wanted, then we've already established, here and at the table that you are correct. If you want to argue that what you actually said would have got you what you wanted, then you are wrong. If you are wrong only by virtue of table variation then so be it, but I did not deny you anything. I also allowed/prompted/asked you to rephrase your command so you did get what you wanted. The only point at which you didn't get what you wanted was when another PC killed you commanded skeleton.
I fail to see how getting what you wanted gives you room to continue to complain.
Now, if you want to argue how your commanded skeleton should have just stood there doing nothing when a previous command became impossible to follow (commanded to attack a specific target that didn't exist by the start of the skeleton's turn), that's fine, but again here I already said I could be wrong. I can't find any RAW answer to determine what a commanded undead does in that circumstance, and I'm open to input from other players.
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Now, if you want to argue how your commanded skeleton should have just stood there doing nothing when a previous command became impossible to follow (commanded to attack a specific target that didn't exist by the start of the skeleton's turn), that's fine, but again here I already said I could be wrong. I can't find any RAW answer to determine what a commanded undead does in that circumstance, and I'm open to input from other players.
According to Golarion lore (as given out by James Jacobs) a mindless undead without specific commands will go and try to kill the nearest living creature. That is the reason why even mindless undead are evil in Pathfinder and not neutral like in previsions editions.
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According to Golarion lore (as given out by James Jacobs) a mindless undead without specific commands will go and try to kill the nearest living creature. That is the reason why even mindless undead are evil in Pathfinder and not neutral like in previsions editions.
If under the influence of Command Undead, would a mindless undead act at all without a command from the caster?
If it would act, I assume it would try and kill the nearest living creature as normal. If not, then I guess it would just stand there waiting for a command until the spell's duration ended.
Also, if it would act until given a command, once that command was complete (assuming it is not an open ended command), would it revert to trying to kill the nearest living creature unless given more commands? If not, I assume it would do nothing until given a command or until the spell's duration ended.
Do we have any indication of which it would be?
Control is via speech and speech is clearly a free action, claiming control to be a move action is an error plain and simple.
Not allowing the command 'Attack Only Undead'could be justified but doing so opens up a different can of worms i.e. what can the mindless undead recognise? By the spell description, it clearly allows for recognition of 'apparent allies' so there must be some complex recognition even in mindless undead. Most mindless undead have an assumed starting position of attack any living creature or to quote Dust Raven's example 'attack anyone not wearing a certain holy symbol'. Now if a mindless undead can't discriminate undead how can they discriminate living - or is it that they can identify living but cannot discriminate between animated unliving items such as undead, constructs and a curtain flapping in the breeze. If they can identify living how do they differentiate between rats, spiders, cockroaches and other vermin and humanoids? Is it based on size, an understanding of intelligence or what? Would a rat, cat or a bird be attacked as a living creature, what about a giant spider? What about a familiar or a polymorphed humanoid polymorphed into anyu of those creatures. Do moving plants qualify?
Easy answer, unless the GM wants to tie themselves in knots, let it slide and call it magic. The GM understands what is meant and player knows what is meant and as the game is meant to be fun lets assume that the mindless undead understand the instruction as it would be delivered by the character.
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It depend on the command.
"Go and kill that guy" don't give other instructions after "that guy" is dead. Probably the undead would do an overkill and hit the target a few times after he has fallen, as the order is to kill him, not simply to give him the "dying" condition. After that they would attack the nearest living thing unless they have received new orders.
Against another undead they wouldn't even spend action to attack ti after it has fallen as undead don't get the "dying" condition.
On the other hand I would have allowed a command like "attack the undeads". A skeleton can recognize a undead from a living thing or a piece of furniture. I have skimmed several posts but I see that you think differently. That would be strange, as uncontrolled undead don't attack each other. I would rule that they recognize the aura of negative energy of other undead.
As the spell say "Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell." if the sorcerer had two controlled undead and one of them had randomly attacked the other that would have broken the spell as the controlled undead is perceived as an ally of the caster.
Also, if it would act until given a command, once that command was complete (assuming it is not an open ended command), would it revert to trying to kill the nearest living creature unless given more commands? If not, I assume it would do nothing until given a command or until the spell's duration ended.
Do we have any indication of which it would be?
Although the spell says intelligent undead are considered friendly, the reference to apparent allies appears to apply to mindless undead as well. Taking the starting position that the spell caster wouldn't be attacked by the commanded undead waiting for a command, I can't see why the caster's allies would be either. I would say it would wait for a command and defend itself but would not attack unless attacked.
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@Hugo Rune
RE: Speech as a free action. No argument from me, and that's how I ran it. My only caveat is that is that a command could only be given on the turn of the caster and cannot be continuously given and amended through the turns of other players/NPCs.
RE: Undead vs the Living. How I've seen this handled in almost every published module/scenario/adventure/encounter is living creatures (including animals and vermin) and mindless undead simply don't exist in the same areas unless the undead are under the direct control of some other power (presumably because such creature see the undead and leave, as any natural creature should). When undead are under the direct control of some other power, a list of orders are provided (which are almost always phrased in such a way that keeps the undead inactive until the PCs arrive).
There really are no knots to get caught up in.
The specific encounter in our scenario is odd in this regard in that the undead seem to spring into existence spontaneously sometime after the PCs enter the room (which already contains living creatures). Seeing how those other living creatures has just looted their graves, it's understandable how that might trigger some spontaneous animation in an area already under a faint corruption.
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On the other hand I would have allowed a command like "attack the undeads". A skeleton can recognize a undead from a living thing or a piece of furniture. I have skimmed several posts but I see that you think differently. That would be strange, as uncontrolled undead don't attack each other. I would rule that they recognize the aura of negative energy of other undead.
Which would be awesome and certainly change how I ruled in this case if undead actually possessed the ability to detect or sense other undead, or otherwise recognize them regardless of appearance. Skeletons (as a creature) have the same senses as humans, plus darkvision. So how is a skeleton to tell the difference between a skeleton (the undead creature), a skeleton construct (via the animate object spell) or an ordinary skeleton being moved around via telekinesis?
I'm perfectly okay with like knows like, so commanding a skeleton to attack other undead skeletons would work (or a zombie to attack other zombies, etc.). I'm also perfectly fine with reasonable indicators being part of the simple command. "Those skeletons and those zombies are undead, kill the undead" might stretch the limits of simple, and is certainly more than two words, but I'd let it work for the sake of fun.