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My campaign is just moving from RRR to VV and I have started to address the issues of Brevic politics more seriously.
The formation phase of the Stolen Lands nations - Varnhold, Drelev and (in our campaign) Newhaven – was little more than a sideshow/ amusement in Brevic politics. Manoeuvring for control of Rostland and the throne was much more important … This is my reading on some of that, tweaked slightly for my campaign. I would appreciate your comments on anything I might have missed.
If you are playing through the campaign - you probably ought to skip this thread :}
House Surtova: “Currently the most influential house in Brevoy – they control Port Ice and New Stetven and claim to the regency of Brevoy.”
They want to be kings – and that says it all really. Since the Vanishing, they moved into New Steven and took over some of the farmland to the south. They have a border down there (somewhere) where their influence comes up against the expanding Aldori claim.
Ideally they want control of that fertile land that House Aldori now seems to control. Not only that Restov is a hot bed of dissent. Those are the two main thorns in their side. But they were both fairly weak.
Developing colonies in the south was seen as a diversion, an experiment that would probably fail and something that would divert strength and resources from both House Aldori and Restov. However, that seem to have backfired and Newhaven (in the green belt) appears strong and is opening up a new trade route down through The Tuskwater.
Nor has their attempts to woo the other houses gone too well. They have been most successful with House Lebeda, but the others need something to draw them into the cause.
House Lebeda – “The Lebedas of Lake Reykal are known as the most “Rostlandic” of Brevoy’s noble houses, having inherited a good deal of Taldan blood and tradition, including a fondness for sword fighting and an appreciation of the finer things.”
Were originally quite supportive of the southern expansions - They used to be able to ship goods straight from Lake Reykal down though the Slough to Mivon and beyond, but since the Slough has become a dangerous place for shipping, their trading position is weakened. They were banking on Drelev opening up the trade route again. However, that hasn’t happened and House Lebeda’s position is weakened.
As for Rostland/Restov/Aldori – House Lebeda was originally inclined to let the Aldori drift back into Rostland and reclaim some of their territories there. They preferred to have a weak House Aldori rather than a strong House Surtova. However, with the green belt developments opening up a second trade route, Restov and the Aldori can grow strong again (perhaps at the expense of the Lebeda)
Relations with House Surtova – As things have developed, Lebeda now sees House Surtova as a natural ally. Trade goods have to be shipped though The Lake of Mists and Veils – and House Surtova control the main port. House Surtova also control New Stetven and have become a strong house. Currently House Lebeda is House Surtova’s strongest ally.
House Garess: “The valleys and lowlands of the Golushkin Mountains are the domain of House Garess, founded on both the defensibility of the mountain terrain and the mineral wealth the house has brought out of the peaks for generations.”
House Garess is the weakest of the traditional houses - their strength was built on their relationship with The Golka Clan of Dwarves, when that clan’s holdings were sealed in The Vanishing, their main source of income dried up. Over the last few years House Garess have been inward looking – still investigating the Golka stronghold and coming to terms with a Dwarven Heir.
The southern colonies were of no great interest to them, and they want to keep themselves to themselves and not rock any boats at the moment. However, they are sandwiched between House Lebeda and two Hourse Surtova holdings (Port Ice and New Stetven)
House Orlovsky: “From Eagle’s Watch on the slopes of Mt. Veshka, House Orlovsky seeks to remain above the conflicts in Brevoy, both figuratively and literally.”
House Orlovsky is in a bit of a dilemma - they find it difficult to support the Surtova claim to the crown, but they find it difficult to do anything that damages the nation of Brevoy as a whole. Sooner or later they need to decide. House Orlovsky are aware of the Tensions between Surtova and Aldori/Restov – and is happy while they remain at at stand off. They are also aware of the building relationship between House Lebeda and House Surtova – and monitor it.
Initially they had little interest in the Southern Expansion, expecting their would be minor success at best, however, all that has changed. The most successful of the new nations is lead by a member of House Orlovsky (The Baron of Newhaven has Noble Born: Orlovsky as a campaign trait) and while his family have never been important in the house, it does make things more interesting – and more complicated.
House Lodovka: & House Medvyed:
One focuses on the lake of Mist and Veils – the other focuses on their forests and mountain home. As far as I can see neither are particularly political. Both will do as little as they can - but both will ‘nudge’ things to suit themselves. Unless they can see a clear advantage - they will probably go with the status quo, so long as they aren’t asked to do too much.
Restov and House Aldori: Their fates are intertwined.
Both are outside the system and had little influence. Now the Aldori have increased their influence in Rostland and they want as much of their old lands back as they can. Restov is a hotbed for revolutionaries anyway - but now there is a new trade route opened up through the Tuskwater they can trade much more easily and they are strengthening.
Not only that the new nations owe Restov a debt of gratitude, if nothing else.
So the question then arises how I can introduce links between my group and the various political groups. Sooner or later, the party are going to have to influence Brevic politics :} I have some already
There is an obvious link with Restov - the party have been funded from there and they have received their charters from the Swordlords or Restov, they got a Raise Dead from the High Priest there when they needed it, and they buy and sell gear there. They have a developed relationship with Restov.
House Aldori - one of our ‘special’ NPCs (they adventure with the party rather than stop at home managing stuff) is a cleric of Iomedae who has the Sword Scion trait - and therefore has grown up on tales of the Aldori and wants to mimic them ….
House Orlovsky – although the player hasn’t pushed it in any way shape or form - The Baron of Newhaven is related to House Orlovsky.
House Garess – There are two NPC links - Keston Garess is the Warden and Dabur Golka (a Dwarven Bard) is their State Executioner – he puts on a damned good show at a public execution. One of the PCs also grew up in the Golushkin Mountains - so she could conceivable have a family link to the area.
But there are two other hooks that have been left dangling, which I would like to use.
Maegar Varn is recorded as “the third son of Androth Varn, a Brevic baron of
Issian descent.” And is also recorded as “the swordlords sent a group of mercenaries led by one of their own, a low-ranking but eager-to-impress swordlord named Maegar Varn”.
However, I note that there is some indication that he wasn’t a hereditary Aldori (a +2 defending longsword with the crest of House Varn on its pommel guard - this belonged to Maegar Varn)
I have been planning to have an ‘heir’ to Maegar Varn turn up and claim some sort of land/title (It will make a nice bit of RP) after we have finished VV, which gives me a chance to build a further link there.
I will probably have his younger Cousin come forward and claim the sword, the blockhouse and at least a minor title on behalf of the Varn family. I am tempted to set the Varn family holdings in Medvyed territory to try and establish a link there. Perhaps to the south of their influence close to the valley of Fire.
Any thoughts on that one?
The more interesting one though is Drelev as there are three potential links back to the Brevoy nobility. The Baron himself, The Stroon family and Lord Numesti. I am tempted to have the Baron and The Stroon originally come from New Stetven, with Numesti having a vague link to the Lebeda family, after all they are the ones who really benefit from having the trade route through The slough reopened.
Although all of those links are fairly obvious / simplistic really - anyone got any other ideas?
In my game I've got a couple of htings going on:
1) Surtova is vaugely aware of the upstart swordlords putting resources into founding new colonies, but has zero faith in their abilities. Also the lands they are moving into have not been settled and held in Brevoy's history, why should they now be different. As such he's comfortable with Restov tapping thier own resources when it slooking more and more like he'll have to take back Rostland anyway (rumors of succession, civil war, etc).
2) In the event that Surtova is wrong, he can easily dispatch soldiers and knights to these upstart kingdoms as a gesture of goodwill, should they become stable and seem to become a power. These troops would act as a police force for Brevoy, as their charter and supposed rights of conquest came from Brevoy herself. As such these upstarts would bend the knee or suffer the Iron fist of Surtova at their throats.
3) By marrying Pavetta Stroon to Baron Drelev he's secured the western regions just in case. Surtova is not afraid to do the same with the player's kingdom, though Varn may be a sticky wicket in that regard. Damnable morals driven idealists!
4) Various Brevic nobles are intruiged by these 'colonies' as they refer to them. They are attmepting to play their own interests under the table to profit form them, but not be seen as overly supportive of them.
5) Baron Medvyed is looking into lumber contracts with the players, and will be supportive of something if the players do the work of creating a way to transport the goods appropriately (River barges, or buidl a highway)
6) Reginald and Bernadette Orlovsky (twin cousins of the heir) are friendly with the party and will come to visit in the spring. They are eager and young, rambunctious, and dangerous in their fragility. They will insist on joining the party on adventures, however in doing so put themselves at risk. Should anything happen to them...
7) Lady Brynhildr, a recently widowed noblewoman has taken interest in our half orc cavalier. Potential for a lovely beauty and the beast story there. She's falling in love with Ser Falkragg and if he reciprocates she'll eventually move her estates and holdings to the new colony. This in itself opens many opportunities.
8)Ser Hrodgar, the Spear of Rostland, a knight, rabble rouser, and general thorn in Issia's side is gatheringmen to his banner in Rostland. He functions as a sort of Robin Hood on horseback in our campaign, will eventually be a rallying banner in the civil war. He's made aquaintances with all the colonies and is spreading the word that the player's colony is welcoming refugees.
So theres a few things you could use or morph into your game if you want. The political game can be insanely fun within Kingmaker - be sure to explore it thoroughly and enjoy the double-double-double crossing potential.
For deets on my game check my politics in RRR on...
For your goals (Brevoy's troubles are a menace in the backdrop of my game) I'd do a few things.
House Garess could easily look to the growing kingdoms as a market for one of the few products they have in abundence stone, and depending on how you run it steel. I use trade rules see my rules thread if desired, but even without them you could just have that be a background thing. Garess sees the PCs as a ripe market, maybe even sends some bannermen to advise the PCs and look after their interests.
House Surtova could try for a false claim on Varnhold by sending a poly-morped or well disguised fake heir to contend with the real one.
All the Noble Houses could start suffering losses via what appears to be a dangerous contingent of Hanspur followers (in reality its Daggermark culling key members of all the houses to encourage civil war, Hanspur is a red herring!) This could easily spill into the stolen land kingdoms (though there will be homebrewing.) As a backup assasins carry forged documents implicating various Brevic houses if captured or killed and searched, the messages are in code making them seem more legit.
Thanks for your thoughts guys.
However, they are generally a bit too heavy for what I am trying to do. Some would be out of place in my low fantasy setting, while others bring Brevoy to the fore to quickly.
Foe me, the trick is to have something in place that is 'every day' for the characters - just sitting there in the background like a just failed perception check - until they want it - and they suddenly realise they already have it :)
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JohnB, although we have different goals, I think we are using Brevoy politics in a similar fashion. I didn't want everything to be about Brevoy, but I hated the idea of this political hotbed that was absent from most of the AP. One of my main themes in running the AP was to give my players lots of choices, including a few that had consequences no matter which way they chose to go. You might find this link to my own political setup useful for ideas and such if you are interested. Some of it is canon and some my own machinations! :)
For instance, the ruler in my game was a swordlord scion and closely tied to their causes. She was also cousin of a Baroness in Rogarvia, and had close ties to the Barony. Her antagonists were the younger brother who tried to usurp the Barony and Surtova, who complicated the Baron's life while he tried to consolidate power. However, there were several times when the Baron and the swordlords were on opposite sides of heated arguments.
When they went to The Stolen Lands, I had ravens carrying regular updates on events in Brevoy, especially those of interest to the PCs based on their connections. While they did not have to get involved, they were likely to based on their characters personalities. In this way, I did not force Brevoy and its "Game of Thrones" down their throat, but led them to it, much like sheep to the slaughter, er I mean flies to honey.
I felt it best to let them decide to what extent Brevoy influenced their new life and kingdom. They could have just ignored all their Brevic ties and gone completely independent. They would have less tough choices and less obligations binding them for the future, but they also would have reaped a lot less benefits along the way.
Some ideas for your PCs:
- Whichever priesthood gave them a Raise Dead should come calling eventually, wanting to stake a solid claim among the PCs kingdom and gain their share of followers. They might offer to discount future spells for the right to be named the official religion of the kingdom and/or the royal family. They might offer to build a few temples for a place on the council or future considerations, like a say in what other religions get to build temples. You get the idea.
- Orlovsky is opposed to Surtova. The PCs are going to eventually be sitting on a goldmine of resources, land, and later armies. House Orlovsky will do everything it can to involve the PCs as their allies. You could have them send BP, supplies in a time of need, a small group of knights to aid in clearing the land or protecting fledgling settlements. Similarly, have Surtova court the players to gain them as allies (and block Orlovsky from doing the same).
- Swordlords. As your party gain reputation and their kingdom size, the NPC cleric attracts the attention of the swordlords. Whether that is positive or negative can depend on how he responds and how he has treated swordlords along the way. Maybe they invite him up to a weekend of dueling to test his mettle. Or maybe he gets cockly and they don't like his presumption as their peer. Tailor to your game.
I only saw one reference to a Brevoy tie and a PC, that of the Baron. If you don't have any other ties, I suggest working with the PCs to add some more in. Alternatively, you can start having factions be agressive or antagonistic and bullying with the young fledgling kingdom of the PCs, and set the stage that way. Whoever is aligned against these antagonists will come forward and desire to make some ties. Thus begins the entanglement :)
There is a lot of good stuff there! And some very complicated stuff at as well. A bit too complicated for my guys, I am afraid - although I will read through it and might mine some of it later.
I like to dangle things around my players - not necessarily in front of them - but around and about and ready for a bite if they fancy it. So I prepare minor details for all sorts of things, drop them into the game web site and drop odd clues into the various sessions. If they get picked up - then I have something to run with. If not, they just sit there for later.
This is a bit different though - I want to keep Brevoy 'On the point' of something for the next few years (if I need to) and let the players go there when they are ready. I suspect that will be quite late on - but I want them to discover they have strings to pull when they get there. Strings they are comfortable and familiar with - or at least strings think they are comfortable and familiar with :)
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I tend to set up a series of events that run their course regardless of whether the players do anything or not. This lets there be activity all the time, and whenever they feel moved or motivated, they can jump in the fray so to speak. If they choose to ignore it completely, events still play out and the landscape changes accordingly.
If you don't want them to get involved yet, you can just keep telling them about current events in Brevoy, ie- which faction is doing what. One good way you can pass info about Brevoy through what happens in the markets. These two lords are at war, which is making the price of weapons go way up, or the cold war between these two groups is making them keep their soldiers close to home, which increases the problem of banditry along the road to the players kingdom, etc.
Perhaps this will encourage them to engage their spymaster and his minions into finding out more about certain groups. Or perhaps the spymaster discovers some shady folks that are lurking about their own kingdom, and even though he can't prove it, hes pretty sure they are Brevic spies. This is all rather passive type stuff that keeps them up to date on current events in Brevoy.
RedCelt - things move on in the background of my game, just like real life. However, I like nice simple structures that hang around in the background, that I can 'bend' for use in a variety of situations. But then I am a very old school GM - I use the basic rules of a game and go with the flow. I won't memorise tomes and tomes of rules so I can play RAW, but will make judgement calls as I go. I don't even run encounters as written, or adjust them with formalised templates - but adjust them to party strengths and weaknesses on the fly.
But to do that consistently - I need a good understanding of the world I am building and the world people play in. As a far as the players are concerned - they just see a consistent series of background events. They can choose which ones to get involved in.
Philip - Lily is fun isn't she :) Our ruler (Rudy, a PC Aristocrat/Bard) had a bit of a fling with her and goes to visit her occasionally. He is also 'courting' Tamary Numesti via letter sent by messenger. The 200 mile (or so) trip is too far for personal visits. He recently spent part of an evening trying to keep a messenger (who carried a note from Tamary) away from Lily - whilst trying to chat up Jermanda (the bard from Taldor) - all at an official function thrown to celebrate a visit for a sword Lord from Restov. This particular sword-lord is on the Restov council and headmaster of the sword/duelling school Rudy attended.
However, I don't mind if they don't follow the RP bread crumbs I lay down - I just keep chucking a few more out, until one gets a bite. For story line stuff -I have a whole series of NPCs to play 'nudge' with. If they don't get worried by something - their steward or their marshal will - and then they will be asked to 'do something about it' by the NPCs. In the same way as the NPCs get asked to sort things out when the PCs can't be bothered :)
Lee - it depends on the type of game you and your players want. Redcelt clearly gets his fun from writing and running deep political backgrounds. I get mine from building consistent games environments - I work out all sorts of minute detail (that really isn't important to the game) so that I can stay consistent with it next time the matter comes up. I have been doing it for years - and have 1st-2nd ed world, a 3e world, a Traveller setting - and a few other bits as well. A long running favourite in our current game is Tig's menagerie - that includes a baby giant centipede and a weasel he wants to put down his trousers! It was a casual line that the players picked up on, and has been coming back ever since.
I always felt the game should belong to all of us in the group - the players and much as the GM, so I don't try to shoe horn people into any particular line. However, I set various personality and alignment restrictions before they start. I don't want to play with jerk-characters that are lawful to the extent of screwing op the party, extremely Chaotic-selfish or outright evil. After that, they can do pretty much what they like.
Find the bits you have fun writing - develop those - and if your group don't want go that way - you had fun writing it anyway.