Hello everyone... first post and it's going to be a long one!!
First off, I hope this is the right forum.. but it does involve ROTRL so fingers crossed!
I'm a DM of about 15 years experience and for just over the past year I've been running ROTRL... Originally hand converted to PF and since September time using the AE.
We're just approaching the last fight, and I really wanted some opinions on if the way things have been going is normal...
First up I run two groups but I'll just mention the one that's giving me more issues.
Party comp is 6 players - Bard, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric and Wizard. They have just reached Level 13 and have appropriate gear for the level. All of the players are young (Under 15) so I've just been giving them gear rather them letting them buy their own. It also saves time as we only play for 2 hours a week and tracking XP and treasure would really have slowed things down a lot.
I've adjusted all of the encounters in the second half of the adventure to take into account the increased character numbers and it's making not the slightest bit of difference...
Here's a few examples:
Fortress of the Stone Giants spoilers!:
In the siege of Sandpoint the raid was defeated by round 8... they managed to take out all of the giants and bears quickly and killed Longtooth before he had time to take more than 1 action (which was a breath that missed!)
The Black Monk died before he even got a turn!! We then redid it to see if he was more effective if they didn't get the jump on him (he'd rolled a really poor initiative) and he managed to take a couple of levels off the bard with the breath of death before pegging it!
By this point I was trying to make it more challenging so took to throwing multiple groups together to try to make things more interesting...
3 bear and 6 giants were merely a speedbump, and then Galenmir died quickly too.
Enga didn't last a round... Neither did the two dragons
Lamias were much harder until they both got turned into Sheep!
The stone golem was actually quite tough, but it missed the ranger with its slow, so it only lasted a round
Finally the fight that made me write this post...
Headless Lord and 8 Zombie Hill Giants - Dead in a round
So, I did a bit or research and number crunching and found that the adventure overall seems to be a bit easy... Comparing APL with the encounters I found the majority of them (over 20) count as 'Easy' going by the usual guidelines....
The other issue is that, as a group the characters are very hard, but we have one stand out - the ranger. Most encounters have now boiled down to one roll - his initiative... if he beats the enemies they die.. if he doesn't they get a turn and then die...
Obviously this is not a great state of affairs... I am still really enjoying our games, as are the players... but I really want to push them, and having an 'I Win' button is starting to become a problem.
I'm sure that there are many reasons for the issues we are having and hopefully just as many solutions... I'm just hoping that some of the experienced posters on here can chip in with their thoughts!
If you have more than 4 players you need to scale it up - if you used higher than a 15 point buy you *may* need to scale on that also.
Rule of thumb:
Separate your players into three groups: Full BAB classes = martial, Full Arcane casters = Arcane, everyone else = utility.
Your 4 person party the AP was designed for assumes a party of 1 martial, 1 arcane, 2 utility.
For your party do the following:
For each martial over 1 - increase HPS of enemies by 50%.
For each arcane over 1 - add 1 monster of APL to each encounter.
For each utility over 2 - increase monster saves and DC's by 1
Give that a shot and see if it doesn't help - all of that assumes of course that your party is keeping up level wise. A party of 6 while starting out strong by the assault on the stone giant fortress really should be a level or two behind the 4 person party due to spreading the exp around.
I've run a 5 person party through this, and you are correct, most of the encounters are easy. With a 6 player group, not only does the CR difficulty go down by one, but since the added players are both martial characters, it makes fights for them even easier.
The way to make this a bit harder is not to let them rest, and just wear them down.
Sandpoint Spoiler:
For example, in the Seige of Sandpoint, ignoring the rout conditions makes the fight last the entire length of time (and add more wandering giants and). The distances involved will drain spells or take time. By the time they are done, almost all the spells should be expended, and the wounds on the characters added up.
Jorgenfist Spoiler:
The fights under Jorgenfist should slowly drain their resources (even if they are "easy" fights. Did you see the bit about the forgefiend, and when he should attack? Coming out behind the casters (instead of by the martial types) and making his big area attack will hurt them. (And then don't wait for his injury trigger or two rounds, retreat next round.)
The BBEG also knows that they are there, and who they are, and will have all his spells prepped and be waiting for them to show up (he's waiting for the door to open, so he WILL go first).
I would guess that your ranger is a giant killer (favorite enemy giant maxed) archer. Just remember, without LOS he can't do much.
To reply to Ckorik though, I've already upped the encounters to account for 6 players...
More spoilers:
For example: The Headless Lord I upped to CR 14 and added 4 more Zombies, and it still made zero difference
I'm a little confused by your mention of dropping behind compared to the level due to sharing of XP... the way I've done it, all of the CR's have been increased by 1 to account for the extra party members, and all XP is divided between the 6 of them, so as a result the progress is the same as a four person party
My party is all 15 point buy as well.. but I'll take another look at everything and try your suggestions to see how that works :)
Craig: I've actually tried that too... and it's working a bit better.. they can easily run through 5 or 6 in a row without a rest though! LOS isn't really an issue unfortunately due to the way things are laid out and the ranger player is careful to stay at the back but still making sure he can at least see a bit of his target (Improved Precise Shot is a real pain!)
As another example of how nasty they can be:
More spoilers:
We did the Shining Child fight as the last one yesterday...
Ranger got ahead of it as usual and took 2/3rd of it's hit points off on his first turn... it then blinded the entire party!
Cleric turned round and used Heal on the ranger who he was standing next to... end result = dead child.
They of course now have to teleport home to get unblinded... :)
Thank you again for your comments, and any more would be greatly appreciated!
Part of your problem might be in the fact that they can retreat, heal, and then come back. Mokmurian is intellegent, he will realize this, and take steps. His battle works better if they have used some of their spells and equipment before they get to him.
Ranger:
And as an aside, you are keeping some sort of track on the ranger's arrows? It doesn't matter at this point now, but at full output even an efficient quiver only carries 60, and at full attack he might be using 5 (or 6 with haste), which is 12 (or 10) rounds of combat until empty. Several encounters without resupply will leave him out of arrows. Just a tip for later)
More spoilers:
Mokmurian isn't just going to let them walk in with no problems, he's going to prepare also. He might bring down some more giants (and one or two more Runeslaves) to attack them in the hall (spread them out so that they won't all be killed at once). He might find another leader giant to hang back in the rooms they already cleared, with orders to come up when they are engaged with combat (just rename one of the other big giants and reuse their stats; Lokansir, Galenmir, or even Conna work for this, just have them show up in the rear of a fight ready to go if the fight doesn't end in one round). Add more Hounds (they really are just a speedbump, but more means at least a few will get to act - remember their hastes and slows). Mokmurian might be able to get more lamia clerics. Mokmurian might get tricky (charmed creature by the Library door, must tug on Library Door when someone teleports in; this will restart the Shining Child fight, and then the reserve giants charge in after the blinding).
And remember, Mokmuria is waiting for them. He's got Fog Cloud already up, will cast Solid Fog as soon as the door to his room is opened (and should cast quickened Shield then too, if your group is that powerful). He's got Stinking cloud and Cloudkill to add to the mix, and that should shut down the archer ranger a bit (lack of LOS because of the clouds). Don't forget his Wall of Force spell to cut the party in half (so he can deal with the front half before the rest). If the Forgefiend is still around, this would be a good place to attack with it. Don't wait for the flee trigger to happen, leave as soon as you think the players will kill him (with the damage they can put out, he's not going to last until the trigger).
Thank you for all of your suggestions... I really appreciate the time you've taken to come up with them!
I was already planning to have Mokmurian well prepared, but I'll probably use a few of your suggestions for his fight.. I actually think he's going to give them fits, purely because of the LOS as you've mentioned and actually mainly his DR... that's been about the only thing that's given them issues up to this point, so I reckon he's probably gonna be more than a decent challenge!
Part of your problem might be in the fact that they can retreat, heal, and then come back. Mokmurian is intellegent, he will realize this, and take steps. His battle works better if they have used some of their spells and equipment before they get to him.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah I don't mean upping the CR - you can do that too - but in general I mean upping the stats (hps,saves,dc,etc) without modifying the CR of the encounter.
Spoiler:
So you upped the CR of the headless lord himself and added 4 zombie Hill Giants (for 8) and they still one rounded it?
At this point your APL should be 13 for a party of 6 players that means your total player levels has to be 74 or less - this means that 4 of your players should be level 12. (remember APL for a 6 person group = total levels / 6 rounded up + 1)
I'm actually impressed if a group of mostly level 12 could take on a CR 14 + 8 CR 6 critters without breaking a sweat. That encounter is worth 57,700 (a CR 15 encounter) so it should have at least made them pause.
It's hard to know how I'd change things up without looking at your party makeup however. What classes do you have?
Here's some more information for you :) Anything you'd be willing to contribute would be greatly appreciated!
We have 6 characters all currently at level 13 -
Here's just the base stats for em (This is large so in spoiler!)
I've cut quite a bit of the stuff like class abilities and stuff... just left feats / spells etc.
characters stats (Long!):
Elgaria
Female Elf Wizard 13
NG Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init +9; Senses low-light vision; Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 20, flat-footed 17 (+5 Dex, +3 natural, +4 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 80 (13d6+13)
Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +8; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Quarterstaff +7/+2 (1d6/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow +12/+7 (1d8/x3)
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 13):
7 (2/day) Teleport, Greater, Banishment (DC 25), Forcecage (DC 25)
6 (3/day) Repulsion (DC 24), Heroism, Greater, Chain Lightning (DC 24), Chain Lightning (DC 24)
5 (4/day) Baleful Polymorph (DC 23), Baleful Polymorph (DC 23), Baleful Polymorph (DC 23), Wall of Force, Hold Monster (DC 23)
4 (6/day) Stoneskin, Enlarge Person, Mass (DC 22), Ice Storm, Ice Storm, Fire Shield, Fire Shield, Fire Shield
3 (6/day) Slow (DC 21), Lightning Bolt (DC 21), Lightning Bolt (DC 21), Fireball (DC 21), Fireball (DC 21), Fireball (DC 21), Fireball (DC 21)
2 (6/day) Bull's Strength, Acid Arrow, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, Scorching Ray, Web (DC 20), Glitterdust
1 (6/day) Magic Missile, Magic Weapon, Expeditious Retreat, Mage Armor, Enlarge Person (DC 19), Burning Hands (DC 19), Burning Hands (DC 19)
0 (at will) Ray of Frost, Open/Close (DC 18), Dancing Lights, Light
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 26, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 26
Feats Combat Casting, Dodge, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Maximize Spell, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll, Widen Spell
Skills Appraise +24, Climb +13, Disable Device +20, Fly +20, Knowledge (arcana) +24, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +24, Knowledge (local) +24, Linguistics +24, Perception +2, Spellcraft +24 (+26 to determine the properties of a magic item), Swim +13
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Catfolk, Celestial, Chelaixian, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Druidic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Necril, Orc, Osiriani, Shoanti, Sylvan, Thassilonian
SQ arcane bonds (object [masterwork quarterstaff] [1/day]), elemental wall (13 rounds/day), elven magic, force missile (11/day), intense spells +6, opposition schools (illusion, necromancy), specialized schools (evocation)
Other Gear Arrows (20), Masterwork Longbow, Masterwork Quarterstaff, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Cha +6) (Climb, , Ring of protection +4, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 616 GP
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Finnan
Male Halfling Bard 13
CG Small Humanoid (halfling)
Init +6; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 24 (+9 armor, +4 Dex, +1 size, +3 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 81 (13d8)
Fort +10, Ref +20, Will +14; +2 vs. fear, +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects, +2 trait bonus vs. fear
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Spear +10/+5 (1d6/x3)
Ranged +4 Heavy crossbow +20/+15 (1d8+4/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (swift action) (30 rounds/day), bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: dirge of doom, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (5 targets) (dc 18), bardic performance: inspire competence +4, bardic performance: inspire courage +3, bardic performance: inspire greatness (2 allies), bardic performance: soothing performance, bardic performance: suggestion (dc 18)
Bard Spells Known (CL 13):
4 (3/day) Dimension Door, Cure Critical Wounds, Shout (DC 16), Dominate Person (DC 16)
3 (4/day) Haste, Blink, Cure Serious Wounds, Displacement, Charm Monster (DC 15)
2 (6/day) Cat's Grace, Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Hold Person (DC 14), Blur
1 (6/day) Expeditious Retreat, Cause Fear (DC 13), Sleep (DC 14), Grease (DC 13), Charm Person (DC 13), Cure Light Wounds
0 (at will) Open/Close (DC 12), Mage Hand, Flare (DC 12), Daze (DC 12), Prestidigitation (DC 12), Ghost Sound (DC 12)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 23, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats Crossbow Mastery (Heavy crossbow), Deadly Aim -3/+6, Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload (Heavy crossbow), Rapid Shot
Traits Courageous, Eager Performer (Perform [dance], Sleep)
Skills Acrobatics +19 (+15 jump), Bluff +18, Climb +1, Diplomacy +20, Disable Device +20, Escape Artist +5, Fly +19, Handle Animal +20, Perception +18, Perform (dance) +19, Perform (sing) +18, Perform (wind instruments) +20, Ride +5, Sense Motive +18, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +19, Stealth +25, Swim +12, Use Magic Device +18
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, Halfling
SQ bardic knowledge, fearless, jack of all trades: trained skills, lore master (2/day), versatile performance abilities (dance, singing, wind instruments), well versed
Other Gear +5 Chain shirt, +4 Heavy crossbow, Crossbow bolts (10), Spear, Amulet of natural armor +3, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Ring of protection +1, Musical instrument, masterwork (Flute), Thieves' tools, masterwork, 822 GP, 9 SP
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Gregg
Male Human Fighter 13
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception -1
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 15, flat-footed 23 (+12 armor, +1 shield, +4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 95 (13d10)
Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +8 (+3 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 Scimitar +23/+18/+13 (1d6+17/15-20/x2) and
+3 Scimitar +23/+18 (1d6+17/15-20/x2)
Ranged Light crossbow +17/+12/+7 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +3, bows +2, close +1)
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Statistics
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Str 25, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 8
Base Atk +13; CMB +20; CMD 35
Feats Cleave, Dodge, Double Slice, Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar), Improved Critical (Scimitar), Improved Initiative, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Lunge, Mobility, Power Attack -4/+8, Spring Attack, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb +21, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Ride +2, Stealth +2, Swim +21
Languages Common
Other Gear +3 Full plate, +3 Scimitar, +3 Scimitar, Crossbow bolts (10), Light crossbow, Belt of giant strength +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Ring of evasion, 79 GP
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Laurena
Female Human Paladin 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +2
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Defense
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AC 31, touch 12, flat-footed 29 (+14 armor, +5 shield, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 121 (13d10+26)
Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +15
Immune charm, fear, disease
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +19/+14/+9 (1d4+6/x2) and
+4 Warhammer +24/+19/+14 (1d8+10/x3)
Special Attacks smite evil (5/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Detect Evil (At will)
Paladin Spells Prepared (CL 10):
4 (1/day) Cure Serious Wounds
3 (2/day) Prayer, Dispel Magic
2 (3/day) Resist Energy, Bull's Strength, Shield Other
1 (5/day) Protection from Evil, Restoration, Lesser, Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Resistance
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 23, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 20
Base Atk +13; CMB +19; CMD 31
Feats Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lunge, Mobility, Power Attack -4/+8, Shield Focus, Toughness +13, Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Skills Acrobatics -5 (-9 jump), Climb +0, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Heal +18, Ride -5, Sense Motive +18, Stealth -5, Swim +0
Languages Common
SQ aura of courage, aura of good, aura of justice, aura of resolve, divine bonds (weapon [3/day]), lay on hands (6d6) (11/day), mercies (mercy [diseased], mercy [fatigued], mercy [poisoned], mercy [sickened]), paladin channel positive energy 7d6 (5/day) (dc 21
Other Gear +5 Full plate, +2 Heavy steel shield, +4 Warhammer, Crossbow bolts (10), Belt of giant strength +6, Headband of alluring charisma +6, Trail rations (29), 9 GP, 5 SP
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Loriana
Female Elf Ranger 13
CG Medium Humanoid (elf)
Init +11; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 16, flat-footed 24 (+11 armor, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 95 (13d10)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +20, Will +11; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep; Resist elven immunities
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Longsword +15/+10/+5 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged +4 Composite longbow (Str +2) +25/+20/+15 (1d8+6/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (giants +4, goblinoids +2, undead +4)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 10):
3 (1/day) Water Walk
2 (3/day) Barkskin, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance
1 (4/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy, Speak with Animals, Entangle (DC 13)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 24, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +13; CMB +15; CMD 31
Feats Deadly Aim -4/+8, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Pinpoint Targeting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 jump), Bluff +0 (+4 vs. giants, +2 vs. goblinoids, +4 vs. undead), Climb +15, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Heal +18, Perception +20 (+24 vs. giants, +22 vs. goblinoids, +24 vs. undead, +24 while in forest terrain, +24 while in mountainous terrain, +22 while in urban terrain), Ride +20, Sense Motive +2 (+6 vs. giants, +4 vs. goblinoids, +6 vs. undead), Spellcraft +17 (+19 to determine the properties of a magic item), Stealth +20 (+24 while in forest terrain, +24 while in mountainous terrain, +22 while in urban terrain), Survival +18 (+22 vs. giants, +20 vs. goblinoids, +22 vs. undead, +22 while in forest terrain, +22 while in mountainous terrain, +20 while in urban terrain, +24 to track), Swim -1 (+3 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ camouflage, combat styles (archery), elven magic, favored terrains (forest +4, mountainous +4, urban +2), hunter's bonds (companions), quarry, swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +5 Breastplate, +4 Composite longbow (Str +2), Arrows (20), Longsword, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of incredible dexterity +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Ring of protection +2, Quiver of Blunt Arrows (30), You have no money!
Terrem
Male Human Cleric 13
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +5
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 10, flat-footed 28 (+14 armor, +4 shield, -1 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 107 (13d8+26)
Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +18
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +10/+5 (1d4+5/x2) and
+4 Heavy mace +19/+14 (1d8+9/x2)
Ranged Light crossbow +8/+3 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks holy lance for 6 rounds (2/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Strength Surge (8/day), Touch of Good (8/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL 13):
7 (1/day) Resurrection, Grasping Hand
6 (2/day) Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass, Heal, Stoneskin
5 (4/day) Spell Resistance, Righteous Might, Breath of Life (DC 20), Flame Strike (DC 20), Flame Strike (DC 20)
4 (5/day) Spell Immunity, Discern Lies (DC 19), Holy Smite (DC 19), Divine Power, Divine Power, Restoration
3 (5/day) Searing Light, Searing Light, Prayer, Remove Disease, Magic Circle against Evil, Dispel Magic
2 (5/day) Restoration, Lesser, Bull's Strength, Aid, Shield Other, Bear's Endurance, Bear's Endurance
1 (6/day) Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield, Comprehend Languages, Enlarge Person (DC 16), Bless, Sanctuary (DC 16)
0 (at will) Stabilize, Read Magic, Guidance, Light
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 21, Cha 14
Base Atk +9; CMB +14; CMD 24
Feats Armor Proficiency (Heavy), Combat Casting, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Improved Initiative, Selective Channeling, Shield Focus, Weapon Focus (Heavy mace)
Skills Acrobatics -7 (-11 jump), Climb -1, Escape Artist -7, Fly -7, Heal +21, Knowledge (religion) +16, Ride -7, Sense Motive +21, Stealth -7, Swim -1
Languages Common
SQ aura, cleric channel positive energy 7d6 (7/day) (dc 20), domains (good, strength), might of the gods (13 rounds/day), spontaneous casting
Other Gear +5 Full plate, +1 Heavy steel shield, +4 Heavy mace, Crossbow bolts (10), Light crossbow, Belt of giant strength +6, Cloak of resistance +5, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, You have no money!
As I've said above, the major issue here is primarily the Ranger, though the Paladin and Bard can also be a pain when they stack all of their abilities... interestingly enough they don't do it very often, generally because they don't need to!
Rolled I's... everyone apart from I think the Cleric got the jump on the HL... (everyone beat the Zombies :) )
Wizard uses Chain Lightning for 54 damage, only 2 Zombies pass the save
Paladin channels positive energy for 26 damage, HL passes but only 2 Zombies pass
Ranger mows down the nearest zombie, but actually doesn't do much more than that
Cleric moves in channels, wiping out everything else!
HL got one attack on the fighter which did about 20 points of damage
Again, comments appreciated... if it's something I'm doing wrong them I'm more than happy to stand corrected :)
Again, comments appreciated... if it's something I'm doing wrong them I'm more than happy to stand corrected :)
Tim
Here is what I would do...
Spoiler:
Your group is 3 full BAB classes - 2 utility - and 1 arcane - for the fight above I would have increased the HPS on everything by 100% over what's in the book.
The zombies are 71 hps each so that would put them at 142 hps each - the boss at 252 hps.
142hps - 54 chain lightning - 26 channel - (cleric 13d6 - assuming like 40ish dmg) that leaves them taking full damage from everyone and having 20ish hps left.
We'll assume the ranger still takes one out - that leaves 3 zombies to at least *try* to get a shot off on the first round and they are targets for round 2 giving the HL a shot at another attack.
Given that room they are in is 120' x 60' I'd have made sure that they were spread out a bit so one channel didn't get all of them - or the channeler would have had to take an AoO to move into position to get them all
Given that your group is a level up you could add channel resistance to the zombies to make it even slightly harder - give the zombies the ability to give the HL 2 rounds (1 to cast fear and 2nd to summon the 9 fast human zombies) - add into that this is meant to be a 'easy to normal encounter' at this point of the dungeon and you have an encounter that makes them use up channels per day/arrows/possibly a bit of healing but doesn't pose a serious risk to them unless the dice are *extremely unlucky* or they do something silly...
That sounds about right to me - but that's my two cents - you'll find increasing hps on stuff with that much raw firepower in your group lets it stand up *just* slightly long enough to be a threat I think.
I'm almost certainly going to go with your HP increase idea...
I'll also stick with the increased HD / numbers for now
After looking at Craigs suggestions, I reckon the Hounds could be quite a challenging fight now if used properly, and I'm certainly not doubling Mokmurians HP :)
I'll let you know how we get on with those two encounters next week, but thanks again for your suggestions!
The Hounds didn't last too long, but all of the party apart from the Paladin / Fighter failed their saves to be slowed... Hounds hasted themselves but still only lasted two turns..
Mokmurian gave a pretty good account of himself I think... managed to disintegrate both the Bard and Ranger before either could get a shot at him, but the Fighter then did 200+ damage in a single round to him before the Wizard turned him into a mouse! Still a pretty challenging fight and the party were rather surprised at his damage output and sneaky fog tactics...
Overall job done, as I really didn't want a one round wonder, and he certainly got his licks in before snuffing it, so overall, good stuff!
I'll admit, my 11th-level party was just walking over the encounters of Module 4, but then we had a guest player for a session. I handed him the GMNPC barbarian and let him roll with it.
So combat #2 of the day was six hill giants. I figured it was going to be another walkover. Fortunately, newbie ran in to the middle of the entire pack (preventing the sorcerer from effectively fireballing) and proceeded to take 93 h.p. the first round. Had I been running the giants, he would have died round 2. Unfortunately, my kids (who make epic goblins) wanted to run them, and instead of killing the wounded barbarian they threw stones at the sorcerer. Entertaining? Yes! Effective? No!
So I can see new players with poor tactics getting wiped off the map by these encounters, even with good characters.
Experienced players with good tactics? No; as discussed above, you need to beef 'em up a bit...
First off NH, thank you for your comments :)
I'm a big fan of your groups ongoing adventures, and the fact that my groups have already played through them gives me good material for comparison!!
After yesterday we have now concluded FOTSG and are ready for SOTS... however I'm really worried again about difficulties to start with... especially the
Spoiler!:
poor White Dragon... my 'I Win' Ranger has a thing for Dragons, and has made it his lifes mission to shoot down any Dragon he sees before it can kill him... the last couple of times he even asked the rest of the party to clear away so he could basically solo the Dragon... Problem is, he can do it too (and doesn't even have FE Dragons... yet!)
Any thoughts over and above those discussed above would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks! Always nice to hear more people reading my thread!
I'm afraid you've already passed us by a wide margin, then; the six hill giants were the guardians of the Storval Stairs. So I'm of no use. Ping Haladir; he's always good for some great ideas.
Did I mention once my party gets sidetracked by roleplaying it takes a few sessions to get them back on the AP? :P
Dragons are smart, This mountain is the dragon's home, he knows all the good hiding/vantage spots and sees the party approach. Depending on how nice you feel you can give them a chance to see him, but remember range, and camouflage and cover so it should be a pretty epic spot. If they spot him and react I'd have him retreat. I see dragons as ambush hunters, kind of like mountain lions and so he wouldn't attack without clear advantage. Also, the ranger letting fly against the dragon from range, especially if he hits or gets close, highlights him as threat number one.
Intelligent flying predators know who the scariest humans are, the ones with bows! (especially if they can shoot you from a couple hundred feet away). His tactics say he engages displaced and invisible, which should make him archer bane to start with. Remember that displacement beats improved precise since displacement isn't cover, it's just miss chance. His surprise round should be to fly in and snatch the ranger up in his mouth, breathing on him while he climbs, then drop him from 200' up in the air.
Once the archer is dealt with, he can continue to harry the party following tactics as normal, but your archer should be properly humbled
Thank you NH! My group would certainly do a bit more roleplaying, but as I think I mentioned before we only really play for 2 hours a week, so most of the time it's combat encounters with a bit of roleplaying when needed! I do enjoy reading your roleplaying sessions though... it's great that you have the time to do them :)
mb: Thank you very much for those tactics... he can't shoot it if it drops him off a cliff :) I've got a break next week so probably won't be doing that encounter til the week after.. will keep everyone informed though, and thanks again for your input!
So, for the fight with the Freezemaw, who's art is just gorgeous in the AE edition (I hadn't looked at it until today, just for you Tim), I would recommend distraction, use of resources, and eating people.
I would recommend a few tactics.
Round 1 - Invisibility
-If the PC's don't notice him in the first place, this makes this tactic all the better because he can fly.
Round 2 - Blizzard special attack
-If you want, after invisibility, he could simply saunter out of his cave and it would just appear that a blizzard was picking up. This gives him fantastic advantage.
Round 3 - Ice Shape
-Create false Freezemaws out of the snow and ice (from the blizzard) and walk away from them. This causes a distraction that may prove advantageous since while they are high level, the blizzard hampers vision.
Round 4 - Freezing Fog
-This would, in my opinion, cause you to come out of invisibility. But it also provides a decent debuff that causes them to take ongoing damage. Couple this with your Ice Aura (2d6, 10 feet) that's constant, and Melee becomes deadly to those unprepared (which really shouldn't be anyone, but you never know). The Grease effect is just icing on the cake (see that there, that was funny). and the effect functions as a 6th level spell.
Round 5 - Determine threats and attack accordingly.
-Wall of Ice (hemisphere) the archer. He'll be in quite a pickle when he's stuck under a half globe of ice and his bow is useless. Move action to fly.
Round 6 - If breath weapon has recharged, use it. If not, flyby attack.
Note: If you're interested in making this encounter deadly, replace Improved Sunder with Improved Bull Rush and bull rush with flyby attacks. This could push them off the mountain.
Guys... thank you both for your great suggestions!
IF: Really like that tactics summary... especially using Wall of Ice to block off the Ranger... I really need to be able to shut him down somehow otherwise it's dead dragon :(
ph: I agree... LOS is the key factor here, but dominate person does work well... in my experience with this party though, it works much better on the fighter, who has a lower will and could probably floor two of them in one turn if he's lucky!!
Cheers again guys and I really appreciate everyone chipping in with suggestions :)
One note of caution: don't go too far overboard with this sort of thing. Your players are probably used to having an easy time of things so far, so if there's suddenly a big jump in difficulty, it might frustrate them. I would be particularly careful about shutting down the Ranger entirely, since it seems like a lot of the strategies above deal with mitigating him. If he is constantly getting walled off or otherwise is unable to contribute, he might get upset.
Remember, the goal is to have fun. Challenges are fun, but completely shutting down a character is often less so.
Thank you!! You are absolutely right... unfortunately, I think he needs to be bought down a peg or two... at least for maybe one or two encounters, because he's basically thinking he's a one man army (and he's right!) and the ego is getting slightly inflated :)
I always try to ensure everyone can contribute, but recently it's been the 'Ranger Show'.. so a change to that is only going to help I reckon
Having said that, the last encounter (as mentioned above) certainly didn't go his way, and to give him his due he didn't take it too badly... apart from blaming the Paladin :)
Thank you very much again for your comments... as always it's a tricky balancing act, so hopefully we'll be able to proceed without totally cutting him out of the loop!
Definitely have fun. I wouldn't see it as being vindictive or putting him in his place so much as reminding the party that a) he's not the whole show and b) they need to have contingencies for when he is out of action. I think the hemisphere wall of ice would be interesting because then he has to figure out "what do I do in these situations, this has never happened"
It can really change up the party dynamic and make them think as a group as to how they can plug-and-play without certain members. I've done similar things to my group in battles that weren't "boss battles" just to give them the opportunity to figure out what resources they might use in case the comfort zone is destroyed.
Also consider editing a bad guy who has the ability to scry to dispel the wizard or clerics favorite spell. I know this one is personal, but no one can be a one shot wonder. Unless your a Force Missile Mage (dragon magazine compendium prestige class). Then you are indeed a one spell wonder, repeatedly, painfully, until someone cast shield.
Ok, sorry about that. Got off on a tangent of nostalgia. Anyway, definitely play the field to help them reconsider their strengths and weaknesses. If you don't, they won't, and Big Daddy K (if played like a 10,000 year old arch mage) is going to demolish them in a few rounds.
Final Note: Post the results of that battle. I want to know!
I've been really lucky with this group to be honest.. all are fairly new players (been playing just over a year now), but we've done amazingly well in that time... just starting Book 5 of RotRL...
We have had a few deaths from time to time, but I've been pretty loose with it, and nobody has had to re-roll character so far...
Regarding the BBEG... I'll certainly keep everyone up to date on our progress up to and including that point if you guys are interested!
I'm pretty confident that we'll have the campaign finished by the summer, and I'm already considering trying Reign of Winter when we are!
If anyone has any suggestions as to points of difficulty or lack of difficulty in the next adventure I would really appreciate your comments on them!
Are you referring to Sins of the Saviors (your current adventure) or Spires of Xin-shalast (the "next" adventure). I only ask because you just started so I'm unsure how to respond.
Sorry for the confusion... one group is still finishing off book 4, and the other group is just about to start book 5 - Sins of the Saviors... thought I am pretty hopeful that we'll reach book 6 and finish the campaign at some point!
The one place where you're really going to get to amp things up in the next adventure is when the PCs run into a
Spoiler:
Mirror of Opposition. Are they having a cakewalk fighting monsters? Then how about fighting themselves?
If I were you, I'd not just file the serial numbers off their characters; instead I'd rebuild them all as their evil counterparts. Make the Paladin into an Antipaladin, swap out the cleric's domains, replace the Wizard's spells with really evil stuff!
When I did this for my group, I did opposition on more than alignment, but also personality. The shy druid became a bombastic leader of the evil team, while our ranger who always jumps into trouble got a craven, hit-and-run type of evil opposite.
I personally found the Catacombs of Wrath to be a bit less difficult than I'd hoped, particularly since the PCs all had fire-protection spells up, which mitigated a lot of the attack spells the Wrathlings could throw at them. I actually had the most success with barrages of Magic Missiles, believe it or not ;-)
It's important to keep in mind that if you have clever players who figure out what they need, the only wings that really need to be explored are
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Pride, Lust, and Wrath.
My party skipped almost all the others, though they did head over to
Spoiler:
Greed
to see if there was any good treasure. But you may need to be aware of this in terms of XP if you're sticking to the tables.
Love that first idea.. will certainly run with that... thank you :)
Not too worried about them skipping stuff tbh... I'm just levelling up as indicated in the chapters rather than using XP, and most of the time I have to lead them by the nose, so I don't think they will skip much... and even if they do, I'm not too worried... as our playtime is limited, skipping a bunch of easy encounters is not going to be an issue, as long as we hit all the highlights!
