Goblin Squad Member
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OK so in other MMO games I love playing "pet" classes. The only way I could really see this happening would be with a necromancer in PFO. So I want to know if you guys have given any thought to how the create undead type spells will work in the game.
Will you be able to have the undead hord following you around or will it be limited to just one undead at a time?
Will the guards in cities automatically attack your undead minions as undead in the Pathfinder universe are inherantly evil?
More information on this topic would be great to know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'd also (depending on how close things are in this to PFRPG) be able to get animal/elemental pets and more temporary summoned creatures. I suspect leveling in those skills will let them stick around longer/be stronger.
I doubt you'll be able to raise/maintain infinite hordes of undead forever (1:4 ratio for your HD in PFRPG), but I definitely see the appeal of having a bunch of pets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will you be able to have the undead hord following you around or will it be limited to just one undead at a time?
Will the guards in cities automatically attack your undead minions as undead in the Pathfinder universe are inherantly evil?
Like I said above, you'll probably start with 1-2 skeletons and expand from there (or have fewer more powerful pets). I imagine performing necromancy will tilt you towards evil and that Good/Neutral aligned settlements will be hostile, but you might be alright in Evil settlements (provided they don't care about necromancy either). Actually, I see a lot of value in a necromancy nation. That would be very, very interesting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You'd also (depending on how close things are in this to PFRPG) be able to get animal/elemental pets and more temporary summoned creatures. I suspect leveling in those skills will let them stick around longer/be stronger.
I doubt you'll be able to raise/maintain infinite hordes of undead forever (1:4 ratio for your HD in PFRPG), but I definitely see the appeal of having a bunch of pets.
True I forgot about the druid animal companion. Do rangers get one also I can't remember?
Not too interested in the temporary summoned ones more of the long lasting companion/pet style.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rangers/Druids/Wizards from core get familiars/companions as an option. From advanced/ultimate magic, witches get one standard and alchemists/magi have the option to take one. I think there's an option for a Rogue to have one too, but I could be wrong.
Since it's classless, you may very well be able to get a pet no matter what class you have - I'd love to be a fighter with a trusty mastiff to back me up. Several classes get mounts instead of pets (Paladin, Samurai, Cavalier off the top of my head).
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Like I said above, you'll probably start with 1-2 skeletons and expand from there (or have fewer more powerful pets). I imagine performing necromancy will tilt you towards evil and that Good/Neutral aligned settlements will be hostile, but you might be alright in Evil settlements (provided they don't care about necromancy either). Actually, I see a lot of value in a necromancy nation. That would be very, very interesting.Will you be able to have the undead hord following you around or will it be limited to just one undead at a time?
Will the guards in cities automatically attack your undead minions as undead in the Pathfinder universe are inherantly evil?
The bolded above, it would be awesome if instead of drawing in *common folk* you drew in undead and the like to do you work in the settlement. This way, even if the surrounding lands are crazy dangerous, the undead don't care. What would get the undead *common folk* to leave is if you had a lot of adventurers around that kept *cleaning up* the hex.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bolded above, it would be awesome if instead of drawing in *common folk* you drew in undead and the like to do you work in the settlement. This way, even if the surrounding lands are crazy dangerous, the undead don't care. What would get the undead *common folk* to leave is if you had a lot of adventurers around that kept *cleaning up* the hex.Like I said above, you'll probably start with 1-2 skeletons and expand from there (or have fewer more powerful pets). I imagine performing necromancy will tilt you towards evil and that Good/Neutral aligned settlements will be hostile, but you might be alright in Evil settlements (provided they don't care about necromancy either). Actually, I see a lot of value in a necromancy nation. That would be very, very interesting.Will you be able to have the undead hord following you around or will it be limited to just one undead at a time?
Will the guards in cities automatically attack your undead minions as undead in the Pathfinder universe are inherantly evil?
Geb.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Geb.The bolded above, it would be awesome if instead of drawing in *common folk* you drew in undead and the like to do you work in the settlement. This way, even if the surrounding lands are crazy dangerous, the undead don't care. What would get the undead *common folk* to leave is if you had a lot of adventurers around that kept *cleaning up* the hex.Like I said above, you'll probably start with 1-2 skeletons and expand from there (or have fewer more powerful pets). I imagine performing necromancy will tilt you towards evil and that Good/Neutral aligned settlements will be hostile, but you might be alright in Evil settlements (provided they don't care about necromancy either). Actually, I see a lot of value in a necromancy nation. That would be very, very interesting.Will you be able to have the undead hord following you around or will it be limited to just one undead at a time?
Will the guards in cities automatically attack your undead minions as undead in the Pathfinder universe are inherantly evil?
Hehe exactly what I was thinking :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ohh I would also. Just think you would have to go out looking for stronger and stronger monsters to kill and raise as undead. Then you run into the problem of if your undead minions are destroyed you have to go out and get new ones. This would make creating bloody skeletons so worth it so they could heal on their own and come back to serve you even if they do get "killed" for a time.
i would love to see necromancy and see a necromancy nation.
a player ran version of geb would be amazing, i could totaly gather up some clerics and watch the chaos of turn undead channel positive engery ensue whilest i smite evil with rightous might. OMG i think i just might be having a bit to much fun thinking of this crusade.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i would love to see necromancy and see a necromancy nation.a player ran version of geb would be amazing, i could totaly gather up some clerics and watch the chaos of turn undead channel positive engery ensue whilest i smite evil with rightous might. OMG i think i just might be having a bit to much fun thinking of this crusade.
Just remember though, coming into what would obviously be a lawful nation and trying to overthrow their established government would be a very chaotic act.
Unless they have done something to start a war with you, if you become the agressor all those paladins might just loose out due to alignment shift. Remember a paladin is Lawful, they may follow a code but they also have to respect a nations laws.
i would love to see necromancy and see a necromancy nation.a player ran version of geb would be amazing, i could totaly gather up some clerics and watch the chaos of turn undead channel positive engery ensue whilest i smite evil with rightous might. OMG i think i just might be having a bit to much fun thinking of this crusade.Just remember though, coming into what would obviously be a lawful nation and trying to overthrow their established government would be a very chaotic act.
Unless they have done something to start a war with you, if you become the agressor all those paladins might just loose out due to alignment shift. Remember a paladin is Lawful, they may follow a code but they also have to respect a nations laws.
even when the nation is evil and their code mandates they seek out and destroy ALL evil and ALL undead depending on which god the paladin serves? this where alignments get blurry lol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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even when the nation is evil and their code mandates they seek out and destroy ALL evil and ALL undead depending on which god the paladin serves? this where alignments get blurry lol.i would love to see necromancy and see a necromancy nation.a player ran version of geb would be amazing, i could totaly gather up some clerics and watch the chaos of turn undead channel positive engery ensue whilest i smite evil with rightous might. OMG i think i just might be having a bit to much fun thinking of this crusade.Just remember though, coming into what would obviously be a lawful nation and trying to overthrow their established government would be a very chaotic act.
Unless they have done something to start a war with you, if you become the agressor all those paladins might just loose out due to alignment shift. Remember a paladin is Lawful, they may follow a code but they also have to respect a nations laws.
Depending on the diety they worship would depend on a lot of the mandates of their order. I always saw paladins those pilars of the comunity who uphold the laws and step in to protect the weak.
But here is a little thinking exercise for you.
Say you have a nation that uses undead. Everyone who dies is then raised up as an undead. But these undead are there to serve the people. The baker has an undead or two to carry deliveries to his customers. The wagon is pulled by an undead horse. The army to protect the people from invaders is an undead leigon.
Now provided the leader of this nation is not opressing his people you have a nation of people who have cheap labor, prices on goods become cheaper to buy, people live better because they have more money to spend and they are protected by the undead meaning less of their own have to die if someone comes in and attacks the comunity.
Now enter your army of clerics and paladins trying to take care of the "undead menace". You tell me who is the real bad guy here?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Depends, on the relationship being undead has on the soul. Sources have claimed that use of the undead is harmful to the soul of the animated and that is why it is evil. Indeed many types of undead are animated by the tortured soul of the animatee. The only place where this become uncertain is the case of unintelligent undead like zombies and skeletons.
A safer practice would be use the bodies of the dead in the creation of Flesh Golems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@banecrow
the problem with that is that in this universe there are some things that are inherently evil, just like the dark side of the force. Is there a good reason for it? Na, but in this world, creating undead is an evil act.
By that the paladin might not have a reason to kill the baker, but he could kill all the undead and those who raised the undead and those in charge who permitted it without any issue probably.
Now if in PfO raising undead is not an evil act but people just didnt like it, then your example would be fine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Two points I would like to bring up.
1. Undead go hand in hand with negitive energy which has a number of effects on life which is for the most part positive energy. In PF there are a number of locations and adventures that deal with this. So a undead heavy area may well become poison to life or twist it into some sort of half life. Geb while a undead nation is far from a good place to live, it does not have the common problems of other nations but it has its own problems that other nations do not. For example a vampire population that needs blood as its food, where do you think that comes from.
2. How will PFO deal with intelligent undead and more so players becoming undead. One bad vampire bite and you may just turn into one. A necromancer gets a high enough level and they can go lich. So on and so on, would really like to know about that. Not to mention the other transformations players may go thru should they choose or run afoul of. Were creatures anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. How will PFO deal with intelligent undead and more so players becoming undead. One bad vampire bite and you may just turn into one. A necromancer gets a high enough level and they can go lich. So on and so on, would really like to know about that. Not to mention the other transformations players may go thru should they choose or run afoul of. Were creatures anyone?
I very much would like to know this as well. I find it to be something of a cop out to not allow these kinds of transformations, especially if they are going to be NPC's in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Geb.
Kaer Maga says hello :) What with their crazy troll seers' intestine fortune telling and necromancers waltzing through the streets like they were people.
Such crazy places, I think I'll stick to Absolom.
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On an unrelated note, I'm kind of hoping if there IS undead commanding, there is no alignment penalty for attacking them unprovoked. Being a slave to the flesh when you are already dead sucks (or something. Making undead is not cool.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Keep in mind, this is a computer game, not a tabletop game where you can just throw a few skele minis on the table and have at it.
Each "pet" you raise adds more computational overhead to the server, more graphics processing for each client and more bandwidth requirements to each connection.
I know Eve does this with "Drones" so it can be done, but as battles scale, i.e. think thousands of players assaulting a settlement & fighting for control of a hex, not 10's or even 100's.
Each with multiple pets...
So while we might get an ability to summon a pet, or even a few pets (I think eve caps at 5-6 drones) I doubt they would ever be able to allow individual players to be able to summon "hordes of undead" and entire armies just due to the scaling issue (if you can summon an army after 2 years training, so can 1000 other players and if they all go for the same hex...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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When it comes to war, more is not always better. Your undead horde is made up of skeletons. One fireball later your horde is just a legion, two fireballs later its a platoon, three firballs later its a unit. You kinda get where I am going with this. You never need more then a few because their power (HD in PF) grows and sense they are more powerful they require more control from their master. So you could say creating an undead horde is pointless, more so sense your going against what would be a PC nation. Even full time crafters could kill a skeleton if for no other reason then because they have a +2 sword on hand because their customer is late, geez I guess its considered a used sword now well just give them 3% off due to undead attack.
Now letting the undead roam a claimed hex because the hex owner happens to be a necromancer that uses undead guards over living ones I am fine with. Those would be NPCs just like normal town guards in any settlement. Consider it a perk of being a high level necromancer with their own settlement.
Several classes get mounts instead of pets (Paladin, Samurai, Cavalier off the top of my head).Which reminds me. I want real mounted combat. I get really angry when every mmo I run into kicks you off your mount the moment combat starts. Heck, most single player games do it too.
Hark, I really like the idea of mounted combat. Maybe something similar to how mount an blade does it.
What about creating a thread and laying out what you would like to see done?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if attacking a necro's undead should even flag you as attacker/criminal. Which makes me think of druids that are shapeshifted.
Off topic, sorry, but will a shapeshifted druid even show up as a player? If someone hunting pelts takes out a wolf that turns out to be a druid should he get flagged?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If a rogue can disguise themselves, a wizard drape themselves in illusions, and druids wildshape into the rat eating some bread near the dumpster then I am cool with it. As long as everyone knows what comes along with it, the good and bad. That being said no more crusading about the bounty system, does not do a thing if I can walk around the settlement in plain sight without worry cause I have my disguise up. Train your perception, sense motive, and get a gem of true seeing. Then you can come for my head, mr. bounty hunter. xP
Getting back on topic, attacking a necromancers pet should be considered an attack on them. The pet is an extension of the necromancer and part of their power. The undead pet will not attack anything without its master's say so. Their is no reason it would be attacked in turn. This does not mean that the undead would be accepted in a good settlement, but the result should not be attack but rather inability to enter said settlement. This will mean the necromancer has to hide his pet or leave it somewhere. After all necromancers are not anymore welcome then their undead anyways.
Just some more thoughts. ;)
If a rogue can disguise themselves, a wizard drape themselves in illusions, and druids wildshape into the rat eating some bread near the dumpster then I am cool with it. As long as everyone knows what comes along with it, the good and bad. That being said no more crusading about the bounty system, does not do a thing if I can walk around the settlement in plain sight without worry cause I have my disguise up. Train your perception, sense motive, and get a gem of true seeing. Then you can come for my head, mr. bounty hunter. xP
Getting back on topic, attacking a necromancers pet should be considered an attack on them. The pet is an extension of the necromancer and part of their power. The undead pet will not attack anything without its master's say so. Their is no reason it would be attacked in turn. This does not mean that the undead would be accepted in a good settlement, but the result should not be attack but rather inability to enter said settlement. This will mean the necromancer has to hide his pet or leave it somewhere. After all necromancers are not anymore welcome then their undead anyways.
Just some more thoughts. ;)
better have your alignment masked too, don't forget detect evil. and detect chaos. if your chaotic evil your screwed no matter what disguise you have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The quintessential pet class is the Summoner, since they're practically the Pokemon trainers of Golarion. Do you miss the old Sha'ir from 2nd edition AD&D? Make a Qadiran summoner and build your eidolon to work like a genie. You could make a 'dragon rider' character by developing an eidolon that looks like a dragon, has wings, and is eventually big enough to carry you. I've even made a gnome who summoned a flying spaghetti monster.
It may be a while before summoners are available in PFO, though. as you can imagine, it would need a Spore-like creature building system to create your eidolons.
As to necromancy, there is a hit die limit to how many a caster can control at any given time. If you animate more, then some of them become uncontrolled and are free to attack whomever they choose. I personally think that casting animate dead should not be evil in itself, since the animates are mindless and therefore not suffering. They're just cheap golems. If you attack innocents with them, then you're committing an evil act by causing suffering, but that would be true of golems, summoned creatures, and animal companions alike. The difference with animated dead is that potential for them to become uncontrolled, at which point they attack anyone they see. It is for that reason that I think the actions of all 'pets' should be reflected on the alignment of the one that summoned/animated/etc. them. If a necromancer has a habit of creating too many skeletons and leaving them to wander the countryside harming people, their alignment should reflect the harm they've caused even though those skeletons are no longer under their command. Necromancers who can be responsible with their power should not be forced into evil alignments.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Animate dead should not in itself be evil if we adopt the Death Mechanics being discussed <link>in another thread</link> . A lower level cleric than can resurrect can make a dead player character 'walk' his own corpse to a temple where he can be resurrected. A cleric enabling this benefit should not suffer an alignment hit to help someone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The problem with animated dead is that the soul and perceptions of the deceased are forced back into their husk, but not their will. The deceased are left seeing and feeling the actions taken by their former body but are helpless to do anything about it. "intelligent" undead don't subvert this; the intelligence is newly created by magic, and the victim is stuck with the thoughts of the malevolent intelligence, again with no way to actively interact.
All this talk of pulling people back from the afterlife for the purpose of enslaving them is disturbing; spreading misinformation about the effects of becoming undead is downright malicious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you raise my mother-in-law that would be pure evil.
But seriously, like most thing, an evil act depends on the observer. Raising some John Doe might be fine. Raising my beloved relative would not be.
Pharasma hates ALL undead, doesn't matter who you're raising into undeath or what your justification is, and I'd rather not piss off the lady that decides where my soul goes when I die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But seriously, like most thing, an evil act depends on the observer. Raising some John Doe might be fine. Raising my beloved relative would not be.
Not in PFO. Alignment is absolute (see heading 'Stairway to Heaven'), what is considered an Evil act is going to universally be the same Evil act regardless of who does it, when, where or for what reasons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pharasma also hates all immortals. Yet their are a few and not really anything she can do about it. She is as bound by her own rules then those she judges. Thats why their is a sealed lich under a tower, cause no one could beat him and still cant. ;)
Alignment may be absolute but its the devs that define what is absolute. I doubt they will blanket necromancy as evil. They will most likely base the system off the actions of the person not something like what spells or abilities they choose to use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alignment may be absolute but its the devs that define what is absolute. I doubt they will blanket necromancy as evil. They will most likely base the system off the actions of the person not something like what spells or abilities they choose to use.
Then I would infer you ar open to the idea of alignment drift based on character actions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then I would infer you ar open to the idea of alignment drift based on character actions?
If a pally starts hacking up everyone in a settlement at random. While yelling "the unpure must be cleansed" then yes he should drift towards evil if thats what you mean. ;)
@Drakhan
So when a cleric commands undead its evil yet being evil is not a prerequisite to have this ability. Nor is it limited to those of evil alignment. Not to mention Necromancy is as much a tool against undead as for it. Anyways I dont think anyone is going to mind a troll zombie or skeleton being used as a guard so long as their the ones being guarded. Funny how people are fine with something as long as its not being used against them.
In the pathfinder setting necromancy is treated differently depending where you are, it is not considered universally evil. If it is please direct me to where that is stated. Sense a number of cities allow necromancy yet are not evil or considered such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the pathfinder setting necromancy is treated differently depending where you are, it is not considered universally evil. If it is please direct me to where that is stated. Sense a number of cities allow necromancy yet are not evil or considered such.
Necromancy isn't solely raising an army of the dead. It includes blindness/deafness and scare too. Raising that army of the dead is evil. Cities aren't all good aligned. I'd like to know what good aligned cities are 100% okay with undead armies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The bolded above, it would be awesome if instead of drawing in *common folk* you drew in undead and the like to do you work in the settlement. This way, even if the surrounding lands are crazy dangerous, the undead don't care. What would get the undead *common folk* to leave is if you had a lot of adventurers around that kept *cleaning up* the hex.
And when the local druids would attack, you'd have Plants vs Zombies in reverse :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Necromancy isn't solely raising an army of the dead. It includes blindness/deafness and scare too. Raising that army of the dead is evil. Cities aren't all good aligned. I'd like to know what good aligned cities are 100% okay with undead armies.
I never said any of those cities were good aligned, good cities are only a handful I think. The majority are some kind of nuetral. Yes I am aware necromancy has a number of weakening and disabling spells, along with speak with dead which no one has any problem with sense everyone uses it when needed. As to raising an army of the dead being an evil act, that like most acts depends on the reason and result. If said army of the dead were fallen soilders protecting their country and were raised to do so once more then I do not consider that evil. Having a LOTR's flashback, letting it go. If said army was an invading horde then yes in most cases I would consider it evil.
@Tuoweit
Your the type of guy that would have a druid settlement where everyone wildshapes into animals when a stranger comes to town. Then watch them until they did something wrong like steal something. Next thing you know the animals are stampeding at them with plants coming to life and blocking their way. I know your wicked ways good sir! xP
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Goblin Squad Member
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As to raising an army of the dead being an evil act, that like most acts depends on the reason and result.
As the blog post I linked states most clearly: in real life, context to actions can determine the difference between a Good and an Evil act. In PFO there will be no such distinction. Period.
Raising the dead is Evil. I think this has been confirmed, though I cannot recall where and I could be wrong on the confirmation. Regardless, there will likely be aspects of Necromancy that are not Evil by nature, but that is surely not one of them.
I do believe you will have company in trying to ensure that necromancy is not a path only for the Evil. (Pretty sure I read about a company dedicated to necromancy and adamantly opposed to the raising of dead.)