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I love Pathfinder, but you can add me to the list of those who want to see a revision of the core rules. And by revision, I don't mean a complete overhaul. I'm talking about a good house cleaning. A fresh re-write of the core text. Not to change the mechanics in a big way, but to make them work better. Even with the current errata, FAQs, and helpful developer posts that have been made over the years, much of the game still needs improvement. If the system can be made better without causing any problems or significant changes, isn't it worth a shot?
My #1 complaint is that the majority of the core text is directly copied and pasted from the 3.5 core system. That may seem harmless at first glance because Pathfinder is only meant to fix what was wrong with 3.5. Right? Wrong. It's unintentionally detrimental to the game to leave the old language alone as it is. Much of the 3.5 core text was directly copy-and-pasted from 3.0, and so on. Therefore, with Pathfinder we have new innovative mechanics interwoven with an old, outdated core language.
If you want proof/examples of this, I can provide some, but that's not why I made this thread. I have some suggestions that I believe would tie up loose ends, fix many inconsistencies, eliminate repetitive and unnecessary language, and bring clarity to the mechanics that need it.
Specifically, I think that stealth, perception, cover, concealment, and a few other related mechanics need some critical attention. Did you realize that in its current form, using stealth grants you no benefit? It's true! Go ahead, look it up. It lists a few stipulations, but that's it! You might say that "it allows you to hide" or "sneak past somebody without being seen" or "it makes your foe flat footed"... but technically it would be a house rule! I find it hard to believe that after all this time, the stealth mechanic is still in this sad state. There was an impending change that was presented a couple of years ago by Paizo which introduced the "hidden" condition, which acted as the benefit of using stealth, but for whatever reason Paizo dropped it (at least from what I've seen. If someone has more info, please share!).
I liked the concept, but not the execution. In fact, I like it so much that I thought invisibility should be a condition, too. Not only that, but I thought that invisibility could be greatly condensed, utilizing other game mechanics, without really changing its mechanics. Branching out from there, I decided to do my own rules cleaning to to several of the related rules to try and make them all harmonize well together.
What do you think of these proposed changes? What do you like or not like about them? Would you be interested in seeing any more suggested changes like these, or should I just forget the whole thing? Any feedback on these suggestions would be appreciated.
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Line of sight means that you have a direct line of vision to a target. You don’t need to see all of your target to have line of sight, but you must be able to see at least a portion of your target. For example, you might have line of sight to someone with cover or concealment, but you wouldn't have line of sight to someone who has total cover or total concealment.
Line of effect means that a direct line from you to your target can be drawn without passing through a solid barrier. Even if there is only a small direct path, it still counts as line of effect. You can have line of effect to someone with cover, but not if they have total cover.
Normally you can’t attack or affect a creature you don’t have line of effect to. You can try to attack, cast a spell, or use an ability in an area without line of sight (by taking the appropriate penalties) unless noted otherwise.
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Whether you’re outside during the day or down in a cave at night, you are typically in one of the forms of light or darkness presented below. Unless you have an ability that lets you see in darkness (such as blindsight or darkvision), you need light to see. If an attack, spell or ability passes through squares with multiple forms of light and darkness, use the darkest form. For example, if you are in an area of normal light and shoot an arrow past dim light into an area of darkness, use darkness for determining the outcome of the shot.
Bright Light: Unless you have light sensitivity or light blindness (or your vision is hindered in some way), you can see clearly in bright light. Areas of direct sunlight with nothing overhead and inside the area of a Daylight spell are examples of bright light.
Normal Light: This works exactly like bright light except creatures with light sensitivity and light blindness are not hindered. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and the area of a Light spell.
Dim Light: It is slightly difficult to see in areas of dim light. Vision-based perception checks made through areas of dim light take a -4 penalty. Being in an area of dim light grants you concealment. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Darkness: If you need light to see, you gain the blindness condition for any action that passes through an area of darkness that requires line of sight. Being in an area of darkness grants you total concealment. Areas of darkness include outside on a cloudy, moonless night, and inside an unlit dungeon chamber.
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Anything used to obscure clear vision of you is concealment. Attacks, hostile spells, and hostile abilities that require a target have a 20% chance of missing someone with concealment. You can also use concealment to hide (see “Stealth”). Examples of concealment include foliage, dim light, normal fog, and being submerged in water relative to someone not in water.
Your source of concealment must cover all of you to be fully effective (see “Partial Concealment”, below). Concealment does not apply to spells or abilities that don’t specify a target (such as the Fireball spell). Creatures that don’t rely on vision to see, such as those with blindsight, ignore the concealment of others. Multiple forms of concealment don’t stack and you only gain the most powerful version available to you. For example, if you share the same space as a bush in an area of darkness, you have total concealment (not regular and total concealment).
Partial Concealment: If a source of concealment doesn't cover all of you (but does cover at least half of you), you have partial concealment. It works exactly like regular concealment except that attacks, hostile spells, and hostile abilities have a 10% chance of missing, and partial concealment cannot be used to hide. If less than half of your body is covered by a source of concealment, you have no concealment at all. Examples of partial concealment include swimming at the surface of water, a large creature occupying two squares of dim light and two squares of normal light, and standing in the same space as a bush that is half your size. If being prone or stooping in the same space as partial concealment causes it to cover all of you, you can use it as regular concealment instead (stooping inside a small bush or low fog is beneficial, but lying down in an area with both dim light and normal light is not).
Total Concealment: Total Concealment is anything that completely shrouds you from view. It works exactly like regular concealment except that attacks, hostile spells, and hostile abilities have a 50% chance of missing someone with it. Those with total concealment do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Creatures do not have line of sight to anyone with total concealment. Unless you are hidden due to stealth or invisibility, nearby creatures know where you are, even without line of sight (thanks to other senses). Examples of total concealment include darkness, invisibility, and being more than 5 feet away from someone in heavy fog.
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Any solid object between you and a creature that covers at least half of you grants cover. Having cover makes you harder to hit, and you can use it to hide (see “Stealth”). Doors, typical trees, tables, barrels, crates, and statues are examples of objects that can be used as cover. An ally who is not grappled or otherwise being manipulated unwillfully cannot be used as cover by an enemy.
You have cover from a creature if a line from any corner of his space to any corner of your space passes through a source of cover. However, if this cover is within his natural reach but not yours, he has cover from you while you gain no benefit from it. On the other hand, if the cover is within reach of both of you (or neither of you), you have cover from each other.
Cover provides a +4 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to reflex saves against anything that originates on the other side of the cover (except spread effects). You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from those you have cover against. Multiple forms of cover don’t stack and you only gain the most powerful version available to you. For example, if a typical tree and a broken knee-high wall stand between you and someone else, you have cover (not partial and regular cover). If an attack misses you by 4 or less due to cover and it would have been enough to hit the cover itself, the object (or ally, see below) is hit by the attack instead.
Allied Cover: You can use a willing ally as cover. Losing this cover due to movement by either of you takes effect immediately. When using allied cover, you do not gain the bonus to reflex saves normally granted by cover and you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. An ally smaller or bigger than you might provide partial or total cover (see below).
Partial Cover: If a source of cover is less than half your size but is still significant enough to provide some protection, it is partial cover. It works exactly like regular cover except the bonus to AC is +2, the bonus to reflex saves is +1, you still provoke attacks of opportunity normally, and you cannot use it to hide. A tree stump as tall as your knees, a chair, and jail bars are all examples of partial cover. If you are prone or stooping behind a source of partial cover, you can use it as regular cover.
Total Cover: A source of cover that completely blocks line of effect is total cover. Normally you can’t attack or affect a creature that has total cover unless you can do so without the need of line of effect. Being on the other side of a wall larger than you or on different floors of the same building are examples of total cover. Creatures behind walls with arrow slits or peep holes are considered to have total cover.
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Description: Use your senses to interact with your surroundings. Some are served well by their ability to see and hear, whether it be through natural talent or training. Any good adventurer knows that it’s better to be aware of your surroundings than to be surprised by them.
Check: Perception checks are most commonly used to determine whether or not you notice something (see below). Otherwise, use one of the other methods presented below to determine success. You can actively make perception checks for a wide variety of purposes, from feeling the ground to determine if something is burrowing beneath you to reading a shady man’s lips from across the tavern. Tell your GM what kind of perception check you want to make and for what purpose (such as looking around the area for hidden doors and traps). Perception checks are opposed by a wide range of possible DCs. Use the tables below as a guideline.
Perception Modifiers (Table 2)
Notice something: Sometimes you might happen to notice something that you weren't actively trying to find. This can apply to any of your senses. Use this method to notice a particular smell, a minor vibration or shift in the ground, faint voices in the distance, something out of place, a nearby creature using stealth or sleight of hand, a minor movement that you might see from the corner of your eye, etc. The GM usually rolls secretly to determine whether a PC notices something or not. Traps, hidden doors, and other well hidden stationary objects cannot be noticed by chance and must be actively looked for (see below) to be found unless otherwise noted. Invisible creatures must also be actively looked for. Normally a perception check isn't necessary to notice something obvious (such as a lever on the wall beside you or a box on a dresser 10 feet from you) unless your GM says otherwise.
Look around: You can take time to look around an area for hidden creatures, objects, and anything else of note. It generally takes 1 minute to search a 30x30 ft. area (or longer if you have to take time sifting through boxes, etc). If multiple things are hidden in the same area, it usually takes multiple searches to find everything. Use this method of perception when you want to actively search around an area for anything that might be hidden (such as a key under a rug, a hidden trap, or an invisible enemy biding his time).
Quick look: Alternatively, you can try to scan an area quickly. This works the same as looking for something (see above) except that you don’t move from your current space and you only take a brief moment to look around. Use this when you only want to take a few seconds to look around for hidden enemies, check the immediate area for noteworthy details (such hidden traps and hidden doors), search a small (or smaller) container, or inspect an object to learn important details.
Taking a quick look is a move action. It’s more difficult to find something (except for hidden creatures) using this method because you’re doing it hastily. Alternatively you can use a full-round action to reduce the DC (except for hidden creatures) or to skim through a large container, medium container, or several smaller containers within reach (as allowed by the GM). You can’t use this method of perception to find anything you don’t have line of sight to, such as gems inside a closed box out of reach or a magical weapon hanging on the other side of a wall.
Scout from a bird’s eye view: You have a much better view of your surroundings when it’s from a high vantage point. When you use look around or quick look (see above) from a high point looking down, your scanning range increases by 5 ft. for every 5 ft. you are above ground level. For example, if you fly 40 ft. in the air and look around (or if you’re looking down from a 40 ft. tower), you can search a 70x70 area in 1 minute. This also allows you to potentially see more areas with your line of sight that would otherwise be out of view on the ground, such as around walls or boulders. The normal range penalty on perception checks still applies. Scouting from a bird’s eye view doesn't allow you to see anything you don’t have line of sight to, such as weapons inside a sealed crate on the ground or an ally underneath a large canopy.
Listen: You can try to actively listen for sounds in the immediate area, in the distance, behind a door, through the floor, etc. This method of perception simply takes a move action to use; you either hear something during that particular moment or you don’t (though you could continuously listen for longer by taking 20). You can also use this method to listen for a hidden creature that may be within 30 ft. of you. Creatures using stealth can be found through sound or sight, so this is as viable as using the quick look method (see above).
Read Lips: If someone is talking (or whispering) and you can’t hear them, you can try to read their lips to understand what they’re saying. You must have line of sight to their lips and be able to understand the language they’re speaking. The base DC to read lips is 10 with the following modifiers:
Reading Lips Modifiers (Table 3)
Action: If a perception check doesn't specify an action, it’s considered to be a move action (except for checks made to notice something, which don’t require an action).
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Description: You can avoid detection, allowing you to slip past foes or strike from the shadows with a surprise attack.
Check: You use stealth when you want to hide or sneak by someone unnoticed. You must have some kind of concealment or cover to make a stealth check (except partial. See “Partial Concealment” and “Partial Cover”). Your stealth check is opposed by the perception check of anyone who might notice you. Anyone who beats your stealth check knows where you are and can see you (if they have line of sight to you). If you beat their perception check, you gain the hidden condition in relation to them (see “Hidden”). If you are using stealth against multiple creatures, anyone who wins his perception check can alert his allies of your location on his or his ally’s next turn, whichever comes first (no action). Any creature with a size other than Medium has a size bonus or penalty on his Stealth checks: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.
Staying hidden: If you are hidden from another creature, the condition lasts until the creature wins his perception check against you, he is alerted of your location, or you do something that automatically reveals your location. This includes attacking a creature you are hidden from (except for sniping, see below), casting a spell or using an ability that affects a creature you are hidden from, losing your source of cover or concealment, and doing anything loud or attention-grabbing (as determined by the GM). You don’t lose the hidden condition until immediately after the revealing action.
Attacking or using an ability that doesn't directly affect creatures you are hidden from doesn't automatically reveal your location to them, but it does require you to make a new stealth check afterward to remain hidden. Anyone who notices you can alert his allies of your location normally (as described in the “Check” section, see above). Moving any distance while hidden also requires you to make a new stealth check to remain hidden (see the “Movement and Stealth” section, below). Making subtle noises or motions that could be noticed by someone nearby, such as whispering, unsheathing a weapon, and retrieving an item each requires you to make a new stealth check to remain hidden. A subtle motion or noise is easy to muffle because you are already hidden, so you receive a +8 circumstance bonus on such checks. An action that requires no movement or sound, such as casting a spell without verbal or somatic components, does not require a new stealth check.
Movement and stealth: You can make a stealth check as part of your movement to either get to a new hiding spot or sneak up to someone. If you’re moving to a new hiding spot, you must be hidden before starting the movement and must have appropriate cover or concealment at the end of the movement. This method of stealth is also used if you are moving into an area where someone would normally notice you. Sneaking up to someone works the same way, except you don’t need cover or concealment at the end of the movement. If you don’t attack or do anything to reveal yourself when sneaking up to someone, you remain hidden until the end of the current turn.
If you move too quickly while trying to be stealthy, creatures are more likely to notice you. You take a -4 penalty on stealth checks when moving more than half your speed. You can’t use stealth with an action that lets you move more than your speed, such as charging or running (though you could make two move actions during your turn and use stealth during each movement).
Using stealth while being observed: If someone notices you, it’s difficult to hide from them. You must move at least 10 feet from the space you begin your turn on and must have total concealment or total cover. Regular concealment and regular cover can’t completely hide you from someone who has noticed you unless you first create a diversion. You can make a bluff check as a swift action opposed by the sense motive check of anyone who notices you. If your bluff check succeeds, you can then move at least 10 feet away and use regular cover or concealment to make a stealth check against those who fell for the diversion. Other distractions can also act as diversions, such as an observer taking damage before you move on your turn (dealing damage yourself does not count as a diversion, and the diversion must happen on your turn). The GM determines what other distractions count as diversions. If at least one creature sees through your diversion, he can alert his allies of your location normally (as described in the “Check” section, see above). Regardless of whether you use total cover, total concealment or a diversion, stealth checks against creatures who have noticed you are made at a -8 penalty.
Sniping: As a standard action you can make a single ranged attack against a target you are hidden from who is at least 10 feet away and try to remain hidden after the shot (normally attacking automatically reveals your location). After attacking from your hiding spot, make a stealth check to remain hidden where you are. This check is made at a -20 penalty.
Action: Usually stealth is part of another action (such as moving to sneak up on someone or quietly unsheathing a weapon). If you can use stealth without moving from your current location, it’s a swift action. This instance is usually rare because if you’re already hidden, you don’t need to make another stealth check unless you do something potentially revealing (see the “Staying Hidden” section, above).
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Hidden: You become hidden from those you successfully use stealth against (see “Stealth”). Nearby creatures you are hidden from do not know where you are (though they might know of your presence in the area if they have reason to). You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against those you are hidden from and ignore their DEX bonus to AC (if any). Creatures you are hidden from do not have line of sight to you and cannot make attacks of opportunity against you.
Invisibility: Your presence is completely removed from view. You gain the hidden condition and total concealment. You do not need to use stealth while invisible (because you are automatically hidden) except when someone is actively trying to find you (see “Look around”). In that case, you gain a +20 bonus to your stealth check.
Blindness: You are suddenly unable to see. You take a -2 penalty to AC and lose your DEX bonus (if any) to AC. You take a -4 penalty to all checks that rely on vision (such as climbing a wall or untying a rope). All vision-based perception checks automatically fail. All enemies gain total concealment against you. You can navigate where you want to go by moving at half speed, but attempting to move more than that is reckless and causes you to fall prone at the start of your movement unless you make a DC 10 acrobatics check. Creatures that don’t rely on vision to see, such as those with blindsight, are immune to blindness.
Stooping: You can squat, kneel, or bend down. Stooping out in the open doesn't grant any benefits, but it can be useful in some situations. Stooping in the same space as partial concealment gives you normal concealment, and stopping behind partial cover gives you normal cover. Stooping and standing up from stooping are free actions. You move at half speed while stooping.
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Blindsense (Ex): Your nonvisual senses (usually hearing or smelling) have developed drastically to compensate for a lack of vision (though it’s not as powerful as Blindsight). You can “see” creatures, objects, and the surrounding environment normally without the need of vision. You are immune to blindness and gaze attacks but are still subject to other effects that rely on vision such as darkness, fog, and invisibility. You still must make Perception checks normally because you are subject to other senses (such as sound and smell), but since you are more attuned to them than those who rely on vision, you gain a +4 insight bonus to all perception checks. You treat line of sight normally as if you had vision. This ability doesn't allow you to discern colors.
Blindsight (Ex): Using nonvisual senses such as acute smelling or hearing, you can “see” creatures, objects, and the surrounding environment normally without the need of vision. You are not affected by visual hindrances such as darkness, fog, or blindness. You ignore visual benefits that other creatures have, such as concealment and invisibility. You still must make perception checks normally because you are subject to other senses (such as sound and smell), but since you are more attuned to them than those who rely on vision, you gain a +6 insight bonus to all perception checks. You are treated as having line of sight to your target if you have line of effect. This ability doesn't allow you to discern colors.
Darkvision (Ex): You can see clearly in dim light and darkness (as if they were normal light) out to the indicated distance and are not hindered by their effects. Other creatures cannot use dim light or darkness to gain concealment or total concealment from you. In areas of darkness, you discern colors as black and white only.
Light Sensitivity (Ex): You gain the dazzled condition for any action that passes through an area of bright light.
Light Blindness (Ex): You gain the blindness condition for any action that passes through an area of bright light.
Low-Light Vision (Ex): You can see clearly in dim light (as if it was normal light) and are not hindered by its effects. Other creatures cannot use dim light to gain concealment from you.
Scent (Ex): Your sense of smell is extremely sensitive and can be used to identify familiar odors, track scents, and sniff out hidden enemies.
You can immediately identify anyone (or anything) with an odor that you’ve smelled before within 30 ft. of you. You immediately know the location of the odor’s source, regardless of any visual obstructions present (such as food hidden in a drawer, an ally in disguise, or even someone familiar trapped behind a locked door). If wind more than 10 mph is blowing in the direction from the source toward you, this range increases to 60 ft. If the wind is blowing away, the range decreases to 15 ft. In addition, you gain a +8 bonus to all smell-based perception checks.
You can also track a specific scent that has moved far away, as long as you have smelled the odor at least once (using a criminal’s hat, smelling their footsteps on the ground, etc). This works exactly like following tracks (see “Survival”) except that ground conditions and visibility don’t affect your ability to track the scent, and you can only track one scent at a time. The base survival DC to track a scent is 10, and each hour that goes by since the odor’s source passed through the area increases the DC by 2. Because your sense of smell is so sensitive, overwhelming odors cripple your ability to focus on any other scent. If a strong odor interrupts your tracking, such as a skunk spraying the area, your survival DC increases by 10. Aside from the differences mentioned here, all other modifiers to following tracks are applied normally.
You can also use Scent to sniff out hidden enemies, even if you've never smelled them before, unlike other creatures who must rely on vision or hearing (see “Perception”). This works the same way except that you get a +8 bonus (as mentioned above), the range increases to 60 ft. if wind more than 10 mph is blowing in the direction from the hidden creature toward you (it decreases to 15 ft. if the wind is blowing away), and you are not restricted by visual obstructions (meaning that you can pinpoint a creature’s location even if the creature has total concealment or total cover). Once you find a creature this way, you can treat his odor as a familiar scent (see above). You can only use this form of scent to actively look for a hidden creature and can’t use it in reaction to a creature using stealth (see “Perception”). This form of scent doesn't allow you to ignore total concealment or grant you any benefit other than being able to use your sense of smell to find hidden creatures.
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Bump. Anyone?
Honest appraisal? You're editing the part of the rules 90% of us gloss over anyway, thus one someone reads your rules the will hit a wall and skim which is why no one has commented.
Perception for most is a roll that just happens when called for, you're way to detailed for most folk and the DM that gets that specific is going to make the game action take for frikin' ever.
Stealth for the most part is used out of combat- the benefit of stealth is if an enemy doesn't notice you they aren't attacking/targeting you. We don't need all this johnny specific stuff and I'm not buying a reprint of the core rules for it either.
Probably not what you want to hear. For what its worth your language is clear and well written and I clearly understand the rules as you've written them. I'd call your revisions mechanically sound, but I'd refuse to game with a DM that slows down the game to re-read thru the materials to make sure they are aligned with your rules.
This is not meant to be harsh and you have my respect for what its worth.
It looks pretty well thought out. I'm sure a lot of it is good. There's an awful lot to take in though. I see you incorporated some 3rd edition material too. One thing I would snip entirely is reading lips. I think that should require a feat.
Thank you three for the honest responses! That's EXACTLY what I need - honest impressions, not false praises. The lip reading rules have already gotten bad votes from 2 out of the 3 of you, so that may very well be omitted. My INTENDED approach is to make the base rules broad and all-encompassing, with specifics only used as examples. Lip reading may be too specific to be included as a core mechanic.
[...]you're way to detailed for most folk and the DM that gets that specific is going to make the game action take for frikin' ever.
[...]I'd refuse to game with a DM that slows down the game to re-read thru the materials to make sure they are aligned with your rules
My goal is to NOT be too detailed or specific unless it's necessary. Did the examples that are listed come across that way to you? Or is it something else (like the lip reading thing)? Any specifics you can tell me would help.
Perception for most is a roll that just happens when called for[...]
I absolutely agree! (as noted in the "Check" section under Perception).
Stealth for the most part is used out of combat- the benefit of stealth is if an enemy doesn't notice you they aren't attacking/targeting you. We don't need all this johnny specific stuff and I'm not buying a reprint of the core rules for it either.
If stealth was meant for out of combat situations, then why do the current rules bother mentioning movement speed? What's more, why would Paizo themselves publicize a proposal to revising stealth? My concept is directly based on their proposed changes (that never got errata'd). Not to mention sniping.
I know many Pathfinder players who would LOVE to be able to use stealth in combat. The rogue class in particular needs stealth for their primary class feature to work, and the rules currently don't even do this right. It's a simple change that would make stealth work the way Paizo originally intended. I can't really comment on the "johnny specific" remark because I'm not sure what exactly it is you're referring to. At any rate, I thank you for the honest feedback.
There's an awful lot to take in though. I see you incorporated some 3rd edition material too.
I do think that Pathfinder omitted (or left out unintentionally) SOME strong mechanics. If this was because they didn't like the language, I don't see why they couldn't just re-write it. Though admittedly, the lip reading mechanic may be pushing the "specific" envelope too hard.
I meant 3rd edition as opposed to 3.5.Am I wrong? Its been so long.
Hah, there may very well be some 3.0-esque material there. If there is, it wasn't consciously intentional (though one of the many voices inside my head might have pushed me in that direction without me realizing it... wouldn't be the first time).
@Sinatar- seems like you want me to be more specific so strap in for a wall of MF text...
Line of sight/line of effect: Rereading this I'm going to praise your line of effect, mostly because I reread the line of sight rules and ruled yours more clear even without the visual. +10 points.
Lighting Conditions: Unless I'm mistaken you added bright light as a new lighting condition, then there's normal and dim light. What's a cloudy day in winter then? Are you telling me my archer is ineffective on a cloudy day in winter? I get there re lgiht sensitive races but I'm not sure they should be as functional in normal light any more then they'd be in bright light. +0 points
Concealment: Did this really change that drastically over what was already written? There's that cute bit about spellcasters getting nerfed by concealment which I would only agree with on spell that require an attack roll (sorry my Magic Missile and burning hands still hit.) B/B I cannot really see much difference and do not approve of the difference I do see (needs either clarification or omission) I can't give you points here either. +0 points
Cover: You laid this out better than the existing text and added the reflex save bonus which makes sense to me. Overall this is good +10 points.
Got to get to work, more to come (don't worry you got some more points up ahead)
Continued:
Perception: This is the most used skill in the game and thus worth 20 points! The good- like your tables, the bit with birds eye view + quick look. The bad- not sure I support listening being a move action. The ugly- IF you want read lips as others have suggested that's either a new skill, feat, or rogue trick: perception is already the most heavily weighted skill in the game the last thing we need is another excuse to roll it. Over all- innovation is some areas, generally well written I'll go 15/20
Stealth: Another huge section and critical skill- another 20 pointer! The good-Almost all of this is butter, a little long winded but worth a second read as it does clarify the skill. The bad- movement and stealth, we have a rogue trick for this, and I'm not sure I want to change this. The ugly- If you do want to make the change mechanically I'd give rogues a choice 1)1/2 move at no penalty OR 2) move full but with 1/2 skill penatly. Maybe that's just me I aknowledge being very opinionated 15/20pts
Conditions: Only nitpick is maybe rename stooping as crouching 10 points
UMRs: Fits well with everything else you have done, a little long winded but this would be broken up in the book more 10 points.
Overall 70/100: You're rules have places where they excell and places that need heavy revision in my opinion. While well written there are places that are phrased awkwardly (Stooping for example means something else in Yiddish.) Overall mechanics are sound except in the places I beat you up a bit but overall I'd neither object to your revisions but I wouldn't shell out $50 for a new core rulebook just to have them either. IF this a draft: Kudos- if this is intended as a fully realized product, I recommend more revisions.
As an aside: I write rules and settings as well, I'd not mind workshopping with you by email PM me if you're interested.
Continued:
Perception: This is the most used skill in the game and thus worth 20 points! The good- like your tables, the bit with birds eye view + quick look. The bad- not sure I support listening being a move action. The ugly- IF you want read lips as others have suggested that's either a new skill, feat, or rogue trick: perception is already the most heavily weighted skill in the game the last thing we need is another excuse to roll it. Over all- innovation is some areas, generally well written I'll go 15/20
Stealth: Another huge section and critical skill- another 20 pointer! The good-Almost all of this is butter, a little long winded but worth a second read as it does clarify the skill. The bad- movement and stealth, we have a rogue trick for this, and I'm not sure I want to change this. The ugly- If you do want to make the change mechanically I'd give rogues a choice 1)1/2 move at no penalty OR 2) move full but with 1/2 skill penatly. Maybe that's just me I aknowledge being very opinionated 15/20pts
Conditions: Only nitpick is maybe rename stooping as crouching 10 points
UMRs: Fits well with everything else you have done, a little long winded but this would be broken up in the book more 10 points.
Overall 70/100: You're rules have places where they excell and places that need heavy revision in my opinion. While well written there are places that are phrased awkwardly (Stooping for example means something else in Yiddish.) Overall mechanics are sound except in the places I beat you up a bit but overall I'd neither object to your revisions but I wouldn't shell out $50 for a new core rulebook just to have them either. IF this a draft: Kudos- if this is intended as a fully realized product, I recommend more revisions.
As an aside: I write rules and settings as well, I'd not mind workshopping with you by email PM me if you're interested.
I agree with GM Solspiral's detailed assessment. However, if the entire CRB got a rewrite similar to this (and a reorganization too), I would shell out $100 bucks for it!
I agree with GM Solspiral's detailed assessment. However, if the entire CRB got a rewrite similar to this (and a...
thwacks Can'tFindthePath on the nose with a newspaper Bad primate, Bad. We don't indicate to Piazo we'd pay more for their products might give them the idea to charge more, BAD.
note: tongue firmly in cheek, don't get mad interwebs
Lighting Conditions: Unless I'm mistaken you added bright light as a new lighting condition, then there's normal and dim light. What's a cloudy day in winter then? Are you telling me my archer is ineffective on a cloudy day in winter? I get there re lgiht sensitive races but I'm not sure they should be as functional in normal light any more then they'd be in bright light. +0 points
These rules already exist within the game; this presentation simply organizes them better (or that's the intended goal, anyway). Bright light vs. Normal light are already mechanics within the core rules. See for yourself HERE.
The current rules also specify that light sensitivity and light blindness take effect in bright light (as opposed to normal light). It's not an original idea by me. See for yourself HERE.
However, if you simply don't like the rules regardless of where they originated, that's another matter. I simply cleaned it up.
Concealment: Did this really change that drastically over what was already written? There's that cute bit about spellcasters getting nerfed by concealment which I would only agree with on spell that require an attack roll (sorry my Magic Missile and burning hands still hit.) B/B I cannot really see much difference and do not approve of the difference I do see (needs either clarification or omission) I can't give you points here either. +0 points
Very little (if any) actual change. Concealment is one of those mechanics that is directly copied and pasted from 3.5. My main beef with concealment in its current form is how vague it is. It explains how to determine if you have concealment, but it doesn't mention what concealment actually is! Because of this, concealment is determined case-by-case in its current form. In other words, if something doesn't specifically state that it provides concealment, then RAW it's not necessarily concealment. This is bad form, and it's no trouble to fix with a sentence or two. My goal is to eliminate the guess-work of determining concealment, not to make any undesired changes. Which part would you say needs clarification or omission?
Also, my suggestion specifies that concealment only applies to attacks, etc. that "specify a target", which falls in line with the stipulation you said you'd want.
[...]not sure I support listening being a move action.
You know, I actually struggled with this for a while. My goal is to make listening a clearly defined part of the overall Perception mechanic without getting carried away. I think my vision mechanics might be okay (unless I missed something), but admittedly I'm not 100% sure on actively made listen checks. I specified a move action mainly for consistency. With my suggestion, an active perception check of any kind is a move action unless you're taking your time (like looking around). Simplicity + balance is the goal!
[...]movement and stealth, we have a rogue trick for this, and I'm not sure I want to change this. [...]If you do want to make the change mechanically I'd give rogues a choice 1)1/2 move at no penalty OR 2) move full but with 1/2 skill penatly.
Excellent point! Thank you for pointing this out. :) The current rules definitely don't cover a lot in this area. There is a small stipulation about movement, but it doesn't say anything about when you should make new stealth checks, which I notice comes up a LOT with stealth users. With the current rules, the GM has to rule himself and guess when to call for new stealth checks. Again, I say that this is bad form, and easily fixed. As I mentioned, one of the main goals in my suggestions is to eliminate the guess-work without getting carried away. Also, shouldn't all stealth users be able to move around quietly if their skill is high enough (not just rogues)? Do you know the name of the rogue trick you're referring to? I'd like to take a quick look, but I really like your suggestion about making it eliminate the penalty as opposed to allowing them do it (when all non-rogue stealth users should be able to do it).
I can't tell you how grateful I am for your detailed feedback! This is indeed only a draft, as I am thoroughly open to any and all suggestions. My goal and intention is to IMPROVE the game - not lay down a "my way or the highway" book.
Here's the rogue trick Fast Stealth its a favorite of mine.
I actually respect what you're trying to do and for the most part succeeding at, but steel sharpens steel. Your stated goal is to make the rules better, which is a difficult process. You have to provide enough language for clarity, while also striving for brevity. These are realities of both publishing and the attention span of your target audience, which may include juvenile reading levels.
Sent you a PM, buzz me back either way...
Here's the rogue trick Fast Stealth its a favorite of mine.
In this case, not a thing would need to be changed! My suggestion still applies a default penalty to stealth if you move more than half speed, so Fast Stealth wouldn't need to be touched (look at my second paragraph under "Movement and Stealth"). I thought you meant that there was a rogue talent that allows you to move from one spot to another using stealth - which is why I was concerned.
I want to try my hand at the other Pathfinder mechanics, but at the same time I don't want to waste my time if no one else really cares. The lack of interest and feedback of this thread speaks volumes in and of itself... it's pointless to revise the rules just for myself! If I can get some support from the community, I will happily continue this work.
GM_Solspiral, I will check your message now. Thanks again for your honest input. And thanks to everyone else who has responded. :)