So, as a law student, I have many exams that require a thorough knowledge of legal jargon and how they apply. For some of my exams, I found it easier to memorize these things by creating classes that utilize them. As a result, I have created a Judge class that I submit to you for feedback.
Judge
Role: Judges are the cities' answer to the horrors they have faced from invasions by man and creature alike. They are the keepers of the law and sentence any who violate it. Quite unlike their mundane counterparts, whom are content to sit in a courtroom and hear trials placed before them, these individuals clad themselves in armor with the sole intention of bringing their verdict to even the most remote and savage lands. Justice has removed her blindfold and set aside her scales...
And not even a jury of 12 angry men can prevent the swiftness of the third of her implements. This one she still has a use for.
Alignment: Any Lawful
Hit Die: d8.
Base Attack Bonus: As Cleric
Saves: High Fort and Will
Class Skills
The Judge's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle
Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local)
(Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride
(Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the Judge.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Judges are proficient with all simple weapons, plus Longsword and War Hammer.
Judges are proficient with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).
Code: All Judges have a Code of ethics. This Code can be radical or very mundane, and is typically bestowed onto the Judge from the land he was trained in. If a Judge finds himself in a land that goes against his Code in some way, he cannot willingly enter it. Violation of his Code results in the Judge being stripped of all his spells and Supernatural powers until he Atones.
Should an unexpected situation arise, the Judge may choose how to deal with it on the fly, thereby cementing it into his Code. From then on, he must abide by his previous decisions and is bound by them.
Prosecution (Su): As a standard action, a Judge may prosecute a creature within sight. The target must succeed on a Will save or immediately be panicked. On the following round, the target must make a second Will save. Success removes the condition, while failure reduces it to frightened. On the following round again, the target must make a final Will save. Success removes the frightened condition while failure this time reduces it to shaken. On the round following, the condition is removed.
At 5th level, creatures with less Hit Die than the Judge do not receive the initial save.
At 10th level, creatures of equal or less Hit Die are disqualified from this save.
At 15th level, no creature is entitled to the initial save but creatures who are immune to fear are still unaffected.
At 20th level, immunity and resistance to fear no longer apply to the Judges Prosecution.
This ability can only be used on humanoids, monsterous humanoids, abberations, and outsiders. The Judge may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Wisdom modifier. The Will save to resist this ability is equal to 10 + half the Judge's level + his Wisdom modifier.
This ability is a mind-affecting, fear effect.
The Judge must be able to point his finger or weapon at his target and be able to speak to pronounce the enemy's guilt to use this ability. Despite having both a visual and an auditory component, the target need only be able to see OR hear the Judge to be affected. This ability does not work on creatures with less than 3 Intelligence.
Punitive Damages (Su): As part of casting a spell, the Judge may elect to drop a prepared spell for either a Cure spell, an Inflict spell, or the Shield spell. The level of the spell dropped determines the version of the cure or inflict spell gained. For each spell level higher than the first, he may include an additional target for the Shield spell. Regardless of the Judge's level, the duration of the Shield cannot exceed combat's end. These spells, while cast in this manner, have a range of 30 feet. The Judge cannot use any version of this ability on himself. The Judge may use this ability once per day at 1st level, twice at 3rd, plus one additional time for every 3 levels beyond that.
De Facto: Starting at second level, the Judge gains affirmation of his cause. He becomes the final arbiter in what is and is not in violation of the law. While this does not grant him any ability to control those around him, so may enter into any land, regardless of it's laws being against his Code. Furthermore, any action taken by the Judge, as long as it's within his Code, does not place him at risk from losing his lawful alignment.
Stare Decisis (Su): At 2nd level, a Judge may call upon the Doctrine of Stare Decisis. His years of studying case law have granted him the ability to look into the past for the answers he seeks. Whenever a Judge successfully makes a Spellcraft check to determine a spell being cast, he can memorize the patterns for a short time. Upon the Judges next round, the Judge may drop a prepared spell slot of equal level to cast the memorized spell, using the Judge's caster level and ability modifier to determine effects. If the Judge does not use this ability in the following round from the original spell being cast, he forgets the patterns and cannot cast it unless he sees it again. To use this ability, the Judge must include the original caster in his targets, and can only do so if the Judge himself was included in the targets of the original spell.
Habeas Corpus (Su): With great power, comes great responsibility. No one is above the law, and the Judge loathes those who fall into corruption and hold the common man in unlawful confinement. Starting at 4th level, a Judge may call upon the Doctrine of Habeas Corpus. Upon seeing any target being entangled, slowed, or held, a Judge may, as a standard action, drop a prepared spell for a remedy. This remedy only removes the condition the spell caused, but not the spell itself. For example, a target who has had Slow cast on them cannot receive the benefits of a Haste spell until the Slow has worn off, despite not being affected by it. For the remedy to be effective, a Judge must drop a spell of equal level to the spell that caused the condition. The remedy only lasts until the original spell ends, but the target cannot be affected by an additional casting of the same spell within this time frame. This ability has a range of 30 feet. This ability has no effect on Supernatural or Extraordinary abilities that cause the above effects; it can only negate spells.
At 12th level, the Judge may call upon this Doctrine as a move action.
Paramountcy (Ex): At fifth level and greater, whenever a Judge attempts to counter a spell using the Counterspell rules, a Judge need only use a spell of equal or higher level. The Judge does not need to ensure his spell is the same spell or school of the spell he is trying to counter. However, this ability may not work; he must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell (1d20 + caster level). For every level of spell he dropped that is higher than his opponent's spell, he gains a +1 bonus to his caster level. His caster level bonus cannot exceed +10. The Judge must be in range of the spell he is trying to dispel.
Ultra Vires (Ex): Starting at 14th level, a Judge may now call upon the Doctrines of Stare Decisis and Paramountcy simultaneously. When the Judge successfully counters an enemies spell, he memorizes the pattern and can, on any subsequent round, cast the spell by dropping a prepared spell of his own. Any spell memorized under the Doctrine of Ultra Vires does not need to include the original caster of the spell, nor does it fade 1 round after memorization. The Judge may store this spell until the next time he prepares his spell list or until he casts it, whichever comes first. In addition, the Judge's caster level bonus increases to +20. Except for as noted above, this ability functions like Paramountcy.
Spells: A Judge casts divine spells much like a cleric does. He must prepare his spells ahead of time after an hours research of studying case law. Unlike a cleric, a Judge does not need a holy symbol or any sort of focus. He cannot cast spells opposed to his alignment. The Judge draws his spells from his own spell list.
Level 0 - The Judge does not receive orisons.
Level 1 - Bane, Bless, Legitimate Weapon, Burst Bonds, Command, Detect Alignment, Axiomatic Favor.
Level 2 - Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Hold Person, Subjugate, Zone of Truth, Castigate, Confess
Level 3 - Invisibility Purge, Discern Lies, Cast Out, Axiomatic Vigor, Seek Thoughts
Level 4 - Axiomatic Power, Freedom of Movement, Order's Wrath, Forced Repentance
Level 5 - Pardon, Mark of Justice, Axiomatic Might, True Seeing, Axiomatic Sword
Level 6 - Banishment, Bear's Endurance Mass, Bull's Strength Mass, Forbiddance, Geas/Quest,
Level 7 - Dictum, Repulsion, Circle of Clarity, Lunar Veil
Level 8 - Dimensional Lock, Discern Location, Shield of Law, Binding
Level 9 - Freedom, Imprisonment
Note: The Judges spell list is comprised of Cleric, Paladin, Inquisitor, and Wizard/Sorcerer spells. They weren't intended to get very many, or very good ones, given what all else they have. I've also included this list below to spells that were renamed.
Legitimate Weapon = Bless Weapon
Axiomatic Favor = Divine Favor
Subjugate = Enthrall
Axiomatic Vigor = Righteous Vigor
Axiomatic Power = Divine Power
Axiomatic Might = Righteous Might
And that's everything. I present...The Judge.
Spoilers & Google Docs are your friends...
Azaelas Fayth wrote: Spoilers & Google Docs are your friends... What did I spoil?
click show next to How to format your text in order to find the formatting.
On-Topic: Seems more like this should be an Inquisitor Archetype.
Azaelas Fayth wrote: ** spoiler omitted **
click show next to How to format your text in order to find the formatting.
On-Topic: Seems more like this should be an Inquisitor Archetype.
Much like Magus is an archetype of Wizard, right?
He's suggesting it would likely have been easier to adapt it to the Inquisitor base class, as opposed to making a completely new class.
It would also fit well with the kind of character an Inquisitor tends to be (though obviously Neutral and Chaotic Inquisitors exist).
Seranov wrote: He's suggesting it would likely have been easier to adapt it to the Inquisitor base class, as opposed to making a completely new class.
It would also fit well with the kind of character an Inquisitor tends to be (though obviously Neutral and Chaotic Inquisitors exist).
The problem with Inquisitors is that they are Church based. Plus, other than general outlook, the Judge utilizes different methods. No teamwork feats, or vast skill selections. I mean, yeah it would have been easier than doing all the extra work, but I was trying to remove the whole good and evil axis of the Inquisitor and put a spotlight on the lawful side.
Vanity wrote: Seranov wrote: He's suggesting it would likely have been easier to adapt it to the Inquisitor base class, as opposed to making a completely new class.
It would also fit well with the kind of character an Inquisitor tends to be (though obviously Neutral and Chaotic Inquisitors exist).
The problem with Inquisitors is that they are Church based. Plus, other than general outlook, the Judge utilizes different methods. No teamwork feats, or vast skill selections. I mean, yeah it would have been easier than doing all the extra work, but I was trying to remove the whole good and evil axis of the Inquisitor and put a spotlight on the lawful side. The Archetype can remove the Church focus and the Teamwork feats reduce the Skills and such in favor of more abilities. An Archetype can replace anything.
Azaelas Fayth wrote: Vanity wrote: Seranov wrote: He's suggesting it would likely have been easier to adapt it to the Inquisitor base class, as opposed to making a completely new class.
It would also fit well with the kind of character an Inquisitor tends to be (though obviously Neutral and Chaotic Inquisitors exist).
The problem with Inquisitors is that they are Church based. Plus, other than general outlook, the Judge utilizes different methods. No teamwork feats, or vast skill selections. I mean, yeah it would have been easier than doing all the extra work, but I was trying to remove the whole good and evil axis of the Inquisitor and put a spotlight on the lawful side. The Archetype can remove the Church focus and the Teamwork feats reduce the Skills and such in favor of more abilities. An Archetype can replace anything. Well, yes, but even on this grand a scale? It would be completely replacing everything the Inquisitor gets as a class feature, changing their skills, skills known, spell list, spell level capacity, weapon and armor proficiencies including shields, and the flavor behind them. I would have thought, at a certain point, it becomes it's own class instead of just a variation?
Technically, the Inquisitor can be devoted to a divine concept (such as killing all the monsters) instead of a deity, as clerics can, but I'm much more inclined to allow this for Inquisitors in my games.
I think making them Panicked on the outset might be a bit too strong. The effect gets weaker at is goes and has some usage limitations, but I don't know that that is enough.
Big Lemon wrote: Technically, the Inquisitor can be devoted to a divine concept (such as killing all the monsters) instead of a deity, as clerics can, but I'm much more inclined to allow this for Inquisitors in my games.
I think making them Panicked on the outset might be a bit too strong. The effect gets weaker at is goes and has some usage limitations, but I don't know that that is enough.
I debated on this for a long while. Looking at what Panicked actually does, I don't think it's a terrifying concept (excuse the pun), it really isn't vastly different from Cause Fear. At least that's my interpretation of it. Am I overlooking something?
I would make most of the powers they get Judgements or maybe look at how the Judgements match up to your new class features.
Why not a Litigation class feature? That way you can use the steal combat maneuver and sleight of hand skill against creatures while still staying lawful. It's just your way of charging allies and enemies for your services, after all. ;)
Also, a Pronounce Sentence class feature.
Arcanemuses wrote: Why not a Litigation class feature? That way you can use the steal combat maneuver and sleight of hand skill against creatures while still staying lawful. It's just your way of charging allies and enemies for your services, after all. ;)
Also, a Pronounce Sentence class feature.
Ah haha! I originally gave them a Sentence class feature, but I removed it for balance purposes. It went like this:
Sentence
Starting at 10th level, once per day a Judge may Sentence another creature. A creature may beg for leniency but at a steeper risk. If they choose to bite the bullet and face punishment, they take 5d8 with no save. If they choose to fall prone and beg they take 10d6 but may make a Will save for half damage.
It is similar to Cause Fear, but there are two important differences:
1. Panicked is one step more severe a condition than Frightened
2. The Judge can use this more times per day at 1st level than a Wizard could cast Cause Fear at 1st level (assuming he used Cause Fear in every slot). A wizard with an arcane bond item, the necromancy school, and 18 intelligence could cast Cause Fear a maximum of 4 times. A Judge with 18 wisdom could use this ability, which is more powerful than Cause Fear, 7 times, and then has more spells.
Furthermore, the Necromancer's Grave Touch ability (which like this one is usable a number of time per day equal to 3 + int mod) only causes the target to become Shaken.
Big Lemon wrote: It is similar to Cause Fear, but there are two important differences:
1. Panicked is one step more severe a condition than Frightened
2. The Judge can use this more times per day at 1st level than a Wizard could cast Cause Fear at 1st level (assuming he used Cause Fear in every slot). A wizard with an arcane bond item, the necromancy school, and 18 intelligence could cast Cause Fear a maximum of 4 times. A Judge with 18 wisdom could use this ability, which is more powerful than Cause Fear, 7 times, and then has more spells.
Furthermore, the Necromancer's Grave Touch ability (which like this one is usable a number of time per day equal to 3 + int mod) only causes the target to become Shaken.
Oh sorry, I wasn't very clear. I know it's one step more severe, but I meant the statistical difference between frightened and panicked is almost nothing, unless I overlooked something.
Does this change your analysis at all? The Judge may get more uses, but it can affect less things.
Honestly, I might have to bring back my Magistrate Archetype...
Azaelas Fayth wrote: Honestly, I might have to bring back my Magistrate Archetype... Alright, all sarcasm aside, I'ma lay it all on the table. Listen, cutie, I understand what you're saying. And I do appreciate your feedback. I really do. But, as I already did all this work, I don't want to make it just an archetype. I know they are very similar, the Judge and Inquisitor, but I just don't wanna :(
I mean, Rogue and Ninja are separate classes, and they're pretty much identical! So, for argument's sake, can we please just pretend it's a separate class? It really doesn't matter if it's a Base or an Archetype, I just wanna know what people think about the balance of it's abilities. What do you say?
I'm not naming names, but sometimes it seems some people just like to be contrary, rather than constructive, and one of those somebodies is active in this thread.
Vanity wrote: Azaelas Fayth wrote: Honestly, I might have to bring back my Magistrate Archetype... Alright, all sarcasm aside, I'ma lay it all on the table. Listen, cutie, I understand what you're saying. And I do appreciate your feedback. I really do. But, as I already did all this work, I don't want to make it just an archetype. I know they are very similar, the Judge and Inquisitor, but I just don't wanna :(
I mean, Rogue and Ninja are separate classes, and they're pretty much identical! So, for argument's sake, can we please just pretend it's a separate class? It really doesn't matter if it's a Base or an Archetype, I just wanna know what people think about the balance of it's abilities. What do you say? I know I was stating that after reading yours I might have to start work on mine again.
I am holding off on the tips until I finish my critique.
Now onto what advice I can give so far as a creator who actually has made things that are balanced inside the PFRPG rule system. Work as if it was an Archetype then maybe increase it into an Alternate Class.
Now I will put back on the Kit gloves and pick up my fine-toothed comb to sift through this class again to make sure I didn't miss something.
I dont think the limitations on targetting balance it out that much. Looking at it pureky along side the Grave Touch wizard Power:
Grave Touch:
-Melee only (a risky business for a low hp armorless caster.w)
-Shaken Condition
-Does not increase in power as the wizard levels.
The Judge's Ability:
-Can be made at a range (even though this class can wear heavy armor and had medium hp)
-Panicked condition, which is still more severe than skane regardless of how much.
-Gains additional benefits as the Judge levels.
True, this ability is more limited in who in can affect, but an ability that can outright end an encounter with a single use (causing opponent to flee for at LEAST one round, provoking attacks of op, and then taking penalties on basically everything) at 1st level is too much regardless of how few types of creatures it can affect.
Ok for My critique:
Prosecution: This is a bit to potent for a Level 1 ability. If it started off as Shaken then increased up to Panicked then it would be fine.
Punitive Damages: Again a bit potent if it is gained before around level 5.
De Facto: Really could be a Level 1 ability...
Stare Decisis: Not bad. But again it is a bit potent for the level it is gained.
Habeas Corpus: This could be accomplished by allowing them to use Freedom Of Movement on that single person using a spell slot equal to the spell used to inflict the condition.
Paramountcy: This could be better accomplished via them getting Improved Counterspell for free. If you really want to maybe allow them later on gain the ability to use any spell for it then have it decrease the minimum spell level required.
Ultra Vires: Seems like it comes at to high of a level...
Spells: Seems easier just to give them cleric spells and progression at a decreased slot progression.
Vanity wrote: I mean, Rogue and Ninja are separate classes, and they're pretty much identical! So, for argument's sake, can we please just pretend it's a separate class? It really doesn't matter if it's a Base or an Archetype, I just wanna know what people think about the balance of it's abilities. What do you say? The ninja IS a rogue archetype. It is written in the rules that an alternate class works in any way like an archetype, AND the devs clarified it themselves by saying, and I quote : "alternate classes are basically glorified archetypes with their own picture and table".
About the class:
- You would have less work to do by just making the judge an inquisitor archetype. Yes, I'm not the first and I will not be the last to say it. An archetype may modify any amount of class features you want it to; a zen archer or quinggong monk is almost an entire different class than a vanilla monk but remains a monk nonetheless.
- On the fluff side, it seems that a character with this class basically cannot ever evolve in it's roleplay, at the risk of losing it's class abilities.
- On the crunch side, it seems to be a combat-based class but receives a lot of spellcasting-based abilities. I'm confused over what exactly the class is supposed to accomplish: it buffs and debuffs, has strong combat and roleplay abilities, plus full spellcasting despite a limited spell list.
- You have heavy armor + shields proficiency and full (even if naturally limited) spellcasting beginning at 1st level - this is not balanced, especially considering what you receive afterhand. The armor proficiency and ability to cast easily would by itself at least cost you 1 spell/day per level.
- Prosecution: Panicked at 1st level is WAY too much powerful. Providing the "shaken" condition is already potent enough considering the reduction to attack rolls and saving throws, and the Will saving throw (which creatures don't even receive later, apparently...). In addition, you may do this more often than a wizard, with less drawbacks -and- a higher DC, so: a big no. Make it "shaken" and you'll be a bit more balanced. Affecting a limited amount of creatures does not make this kind of ability that either sucks or breaks encounters more balanced, this is more akin to spell design. You are stuck with a class ability, while a spell may (or not) be prepared. Favored enemy may seem like a counter-example, but it's bonuses do not decide encounters just by themselves, and there are many options/archetypes/spells/feats to expand upon this list or make it less restrictive.
- Punitive Damages: You get too much versatility with this ability. Each spell slot is basically anything you may want for a combat situation... and you may add several targets to the shield effect ? No way, shield is personal only for a good reason and the only ones able to share this effect can only do it on a single target: their special pet. There is a paladin spell allowing her to lose her own shield bonus to provide it to another creature that would better fit the role.
- Stare Decisis: the concept is cool, but the execution basically makes you a spell copycat, reducing even more the impact of what should be a limited spell list (which is not really limited considering you get awesome spells at the fastest and highest level). It would fit more to have something like "perform a Knowledge (History) check to receive or grant a +2 bonus to a single skill check".
- Habeas Corpus: make it a dispel check using a spell of same level than the level of the spell you wish to overcome (basically what you did with the 5th level ability), or expand a spell of same level to help the creature performing a new saving throw with a bonus, like the Liberating Command spell. As it is now, this ability may not fail as long as you expand a spell of the appropriate level; and the drawbacks are not worth the fact it is easier to use than a dispel. It's again a case of ability that sucks most of the time but is too powerful when you need it.
Again, I feel like you'd better adapt the inquisitor's class abilities toward what you have in mind, even if your alternate class heavily changes the original abilities; it would help you get the balance by comparing your options to existing ones.
Just as an aside, considering your previous posts, I'd appreciate you keep a friendly tone toward people providing you with advice and insight on your design - this includes this post. I hope our suggestions help you understand the concerns your "judge" class raised upon reading, and that it is constructive criticism.
Also it is horribly Front Loaded. I mean levels 16, 17, 18, & 19 have nthing and then you don't really get a capstone.
As I said look at it as an Archetype then convert it into an Alternate Class.
Maxximilius wrote: Vanity wrote: I mean, Rogue and Ninja are separate classes, and they're pretty much identical! So, for argument's sake, can we please just pretend it's a separate class? It really doesn't matter if it's a Base or an Archetype, I just wanna know what people think about the balance of it's abilities. What do you say? The ninja IS a rogue archetype. It is written in the rules that an alternate class works in any way like an archetype, AND the devs clarified it themselves by saying, and I quote : "alternate classes are basically glorified archetypes with their own picture and table".
About the class:
- You would have less work to do by just making the judge an inquisitor archetype. Yes, I'm not the first and I will not be the last to say it. An archetype may modify any amount of class features you want it to; a zen archer or quinggong monk is almost an entire different class than a vanilla monk but remains a monk nonetheless.
- On the fluff side, it seems that a character with this class basically cannot ever evolve in it's roleplay, at the risk of losing it's class abilities.
- On the crunch side, it seems to be a combat-based class but receives a lot of spellcasting-based abilities. I'm confused over what exactly the class is supposed to accomplish: it buffs and debuffs, has strong combat and roleplay abilities, plus full spellcasting despite a limited spell list.
- You have heavy armor + shields proficiency and full (even if naturally limited) spellcasting beginning at 1st level - this is not balanced, especially considering what you receive afterhand. The armor proficiency and ability to cast easily would by itself at least cost you 1 spell/day per level.
- Prosecution: Panicked at 1st level is WAY too much powerful. Providing the "shaken" condition is already potent enough considering the reduction to attack rolls and saving throws, and the Will saving throw (which creatures don't even receive later, apparently...). In addition, you may do this more often than a wizard, with less... I'm really not sure what you meant by previous tone? The only time I got short was with Fayth at the very beginning, because he was speaking in a pointed way. If you misconstrued anything after that as terse, then I apologize, but it was just that - misconstrued. That aside, thank you very much for your input. It is exceptionally detailed and constructive. :)
You know after taking some time and thinking about this...
It feels more like trying to make the Spellbreaker Archetype into a standalone class...
Azaelas Fayth wrote: You know after taking some time and thinking about this...
It feels more like trying to make the Spellbreaker Archetype into a standalone class...
Oh? Why do you think that?
The Spellbreaker is all about disabling enemy spellcasting.
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